Searching Scotland's people without a surname

[Ladkyis]

I am sooooooo frustrated! I was idly searching for nothing in particular on Ancestry, looking for one of my Charles Guilfoyle's and one of the hits was for the 1881 census of Scotland.
This comes up as a transcript with an apology because A* have not yet been able to persuade the scottish RO to let them use the original images.

I was delighted and immediately went to Scotlands people to search - I am registered. The first search drew a blank. I used wildcard searches and drew a blank.

So now I am frustrated because I can't find Charles Guilfoyle and this means that the first letter of the name has been mistranscribed - but as WHAT!!!!

[Davran]

I think you can use wildcards for initial letters on SP. I haven't been on there for ages, so can't remember. I know their searches are pretty good.

[Sue Mackay]

Fear not Ann, I have the 1881 census index CDs including Scotland (haven't used them for yonks!) and will look it up for you, just as soon as this long document has printed out. For some reason the CD drawer on my computer refuses to open if the PC has been on for a while, and I need to reboot. |computer|

[Ladkyis]

I have that problem but I found that if I keep a CD in the drawer it opens everytime.

I really do appreciatr this. I had no idea they were in Scotland in 1881. I thought they were in Ireland at the time of the census - shows how much I know. They are in Greenock West, Renfrewshire 564/3
Charles Guilfoyle boarder age 31
Elizabeth Guilfoyle boarder's wife age 24
Daniel Guilfoyle age 2
Harriet Guilfoyle age 5 mo

It says Dramatic Artist as occupation - and this fits my lot so perfectly except for Harriet. The only time I have seen any reference to Harriet Guilfoyle is on my grandmother's marriage certificate and on the army pension records of my great uncle Charles - and I only found that last week.

[Sue Mackay]

Right. Reboot done.

I can't look at the original image, of course, but the LDS index has the address as 36 West Blackhall Street, West Greenock, Renfrewshire and the census reference is Volume 564-3 ED3 p17

Margaret IRVING Head 40 Housekeeper b England
Charles GIULFOYUE (sic) Boarder 31 Dramatic Artist b Ireland
Elizabeth GIULFOYUE Boarder's wife 24 Dramatic Artist b England
Daniel GIULFOYUE son 2 b England
Harriiett GIULFOYUE daur 5mo b Ireland

[Ladkyis]

Sue, I have found them! Thank you so much for doing this

I suddenly stopped being blinkered and realised that they were boarders and the head of household was names so I looked up her and found them!

Now all I have to do is get the birth registrations for the children - now how do I do that for one born in Ireland? Hmmmmm
There's always something.

[Ladkyis]

Does anyone know the names of the local newspapers for the Greenock area in the 1880s? Oh and where they are available to look at them. I have found that the local papera would do reviews of the theatre performances and I have quite a collection of them about Charles and Elizabeth. If I could find some fro them in Scotland it would fill a gap in my collection.

[Jan1954]

The British Library Newspapers has the following:

The Greenock Advertiser 1802 to 1884 and also the Greenock Herald 1874 to 1928

[Sue Mackay]

Does anyone know the names of the local newspapers for the Greenock area in the 1880s? Oh and where they are available to look at them. I have found that the local papera would do reviews of the theatre performances and I have quite a collection of them about Charles and Elizabeth. If I could find some fro them in Scotland it would fill a gap in my collection.

Do you have access to Gale Group 19th century newspaper archive via your Newport library card? They have the Glasgow Herald 1820-1900, which may cover Renfrewshire as well.

Also, if you are looking for Guilfoyles in Ireland, I just put the name into the search box and got loads of hits, quite a few from the Freeman's Journal and Daily Commercial Advertiser, a Dublin paper which they have from 1807-1900, and they seem to have quite a few BMDs

[Sue Mackay]

Your Charles Guilfoyle didn't sometimes tack the name Seymour on the end did he? I've found a playbill in the Belfast News for November 25 1881 in the Gale Archives for a performance at The Ulster Hall, Belfast. Company calling itself The Hibernian Company including Charles Guilfoyle Seymour and a Bessie Nathan - aren't you researching Nathans as well?

If you are connected to these two (or Charles Sullivan Company) then there are oodles of reviews and playbills in a paper called The Era, published in London, which had a page headed Provincial Theatres listing what was on everywhere, including places like the Theatre Royal, Glasgow, and giving reviews. The pages can all be saved as PDF files. Sadly one reviewer didn't think Bessie Nathan could sing :(

[Ladkyis]

I have no idea if Newport Library has access to Gale. They didn't have Ancestry for ages - they might still not have it.
In answer to your questions

Yes his stage name was Charles Guilfoyle-Seymour
Yes Bessie Nathan is his wife and my great grandmother
I have almost everything from "The Era"

Rubina found me some references in The Scotsman so I know that the play he was in was one of his own productions with Miss E Brunton

The Charles Sullivan Company interests me too. Does it say the name of the play? and the date.

Bessie played Topsy in Uncle Tom's Cabin for 7 years without a break during th e 1880s and Charles GS played Simon Legree.

I would love to discover a photograph of him I have one very poor photocopy of a picture that belonged to his youngest daughter. The original stayed with her family and when my dad died we lost contact with them.

[Sue Mackay]

The Charles Sullivan Company interests me too. Does it say the name of the play? and the date.


The Shaughraun

Have e-mailed you.

[joette]

For reference you can use a leading widlcard on Scotland's People.

[Ladkyis]

I now have the ring binder with all the newspaper stuff in it - there is enough for it to have its own file now.

I have spent ages in the past sifting and reading. Some of the cuttings come from the photocopies of Bessie's scrap book that she began in 1875. Others from research that my father paid for - an excellent researcher by the way who was very reasonable about charges because, as he said at the beginning, "I have never researched theatrical people before so this is of great interest to me".
He has retired now unfortunately. He continued to send me the odd cutting for several years after simply because he could not help looking in the adverts columns when searching newspapers.

I have thought about transcribing them all into a booklet and then I think that I will crop all the images to just the advert, print it big enough to read easily and then list all the dates and times we have for that advert and see if we can plot their travels.

My grateful thanks to Sue, who seems to be finding all the branches of my tree for me.
To Rubina for the Scotsman pages and to everyone else that has offered help.
Oh my goodness I love this forum! I would never have found - no make that received - so much information about my ancestors without the marvellous people on this forum.
I just hope I can return the favours by helping others

[Rubina]

I have thought about transcribing them all into a booklet and then I think that I will crop all the images to just the advert, print it big enough to read easily and then list all the dates and times we have for that advert and see if we can plot their travels.


Ladykis

If you do transcribe it, please let us know. Iit would be great to read about the family's travels around the theatres of the UK!

Rubina

[Sue Mackay]

Did CGS have a first wife?
Birmingham Daily Post April 10 1875
Mrs. Guilfoyle Seymour, who played at Sunderland in Mr. G.G. Whyatt's pantomime under the name of Miss Harriet Hunter, has died at Whitehaven at the early age of 20 years. The deceased lady was a daughter of Fanny Robertson (Mrs. Hunter), one of the sisters of the late T.W. Robertson, author of "Casto".

[Ladkyis]

Yes, he did and that's her. She died in Whitehaven of premature confinement and puerpural something collapse - it's good to have the newspaper notices.

I wondered if the child had survivied but I don't think so - nothing is registered anyway. Mind you that's nothing new with this lot. So far I have only found the registration of one of their four (or is it five) children

The one called Daniel, who they say was born in England on the 1881 census, emigrates to USA in the 1920s and calls himself Charles/charles Daniel/Charles Daniel John. He says he was born in British Columbia.
The family story says he was married and had not ended that marriage when he met and married his French wife Fani so he borrowed his brother's name then went to New York. My aunt used to write to Fani but she insisted he was always called Charlie. The real Uncle Charlie lived in Liverpool and was a good honest citizen and, according to his army pension record he was an exemplary soldier too.

I have started to write some of this as a book but when I read it I keep thinking that no-one will believe it.

[Sue Mackay]

I've been reading some of CGS's reviews, firstly because my family background gives me an interest in the theatre, but mainly because I just love the language they used in the 19th century. I've just been looking at a review of "The White Slave" at Aberdeen Theatre Royal, published in the Aberdeen Weekly Journal of 2 March 1886. The play was apparently "not a mere plum-pudding arrangement"! Of CGS it says "Mr Guilfoyle Seymour, in his old part of Lacy the slave dealer, is natural and good, and receives copious hisses from the gallery as a tribute to his life-like rendering of a rather repulsive personage."

[Sue Mackay]

The one called Daniel, who they say was born in England on the 1881 census, emigrates to USA in the 1920s and calls himself Charles/charles Daniel/Charles Daniel John. He says he was born in British Columbia. The family story says he was married and had not ended that marriage when he met and married his French wife Fani so he borrowed his brother's name then went to New York.

Is that him getting married in Newport under the name of Daniel Guilfoyle Seymour Sep qtr 1905 Vol 11a page 434?

[Sue Mackay]

Is that him getting married in Newport under the name of Daniel Guilfoyle Seymour Sep qtr 1905 Vol 11a page 434?

And there's a second marriage of a Daniel Guilfoyle Seymour in Chertsey in 1907. You wouldn't think there could be two people with that name!

[Ladkyis]

I haven't actually got around to buying that certificate yet - Now I will have to. As far as I know he married Fani in Marseilles.
Chertsey in 1907 ..... I am going to have to get that one too aren't I? Just to make sure.
Now as to the unusual surname, Charles John GS used it as his stage name. his wife, Bessie, used it, and several other combinations or separate names, as it suited her for the rest of her life.
Their son Charles (the real one) switched them around and did his army service as Seymour-Guilfoyle.
And then there was Daniel GS, the brother of Charles John GS. He was also an actor and appeared in several productions with CHarles John. He probably married and had children too

I love 'em! every little thing discovered shows me where my dad's family get their little idiosyncracies. Mind you when you think of the mixture -Irish Catholic with Jewish (both Sephardi and Ashkenasi) and they were actors so they had the 'show off' gene in abundance. They are both strikingly good looking from the few pictures I have seen and they must have oozed charm (some of the reviews show this)
I begin to recognise my dad and his brothers and sisters.

[Ladkyis]

certificates ordered - dispatch date 6 feb, so now I wait...

[Rubina]

They sound fascinating, Ladykis! Keep us updated!

Rubina

[Ladkyis]

The marriage in 1905 is my boy! The family story says that he married a spanish girl who took him home to spain to her family and for some unknown reason she threw him out into the street nekkid and penniless and the British Consul had to get him back home. He married again but used his brother's name cos he still had the spanish wife with his own name.
in 1905 he married Josefa Gutiere at the register office in Newport, Mon. Her father is names as Joseph Gutiere and his occupation is farmer.
Daniel gives his age as 27 - (lies) and his occupation as shop keeper. His father is named as Guilfoyle Seymour (deceased) Theatrical Actor.
The address is 44 Cardiff Road. This is the address on Charles GS death certificate and also explains how Bessie could be with Charles GS in Scotland because she left Daniel running the shop with his sister.

The Chertsey marriage in 1907 is interesting it is Daniel Guilfoyle Seymour age 29 condition batchelor, rank or profession mechanic, Father Charles Seymour, Shop Keeper - he married Luise Braun age 26 daughter of John Braun, builder. This marriage was in the church. They both give Chertsey as their residence - I wonder how I could find out if he was mine...

I have searched the 1911 but no joy for any of them.

[Sue Mackay]

Glad one of them has definitely fitted in :D