Help needed on a search for a crash site..

[moonlightdrive]

I have been researching my Dads uncle Leading Aircraftman Chistopher Thomas McClure who was serving in 502 Sqdn and was killed when his Avro Anson crashed in a snowstorm in the Rhyl/Prestatyn area while returning to RAF Aldergrove on the 19th January 1940.

Over the last year we have been trying to find the location of the crash as my Dad who is in his late seventies is keen to visit the site.

Any help on where to start looking would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Astoria]

There is an entry on CWGC for a Thomas Christopher which looks like your man.

[Peter Goodey]

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=61

Please see para 5 of the above research guide.

[Neil Wilson]

Not sure if you have seen this page (http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northeast/sites/askalocal/pages/wwii19.shtml)(unless you are one of the people inquiring on it).
Good luck

[Jane Gee]

If there were many crashes in this area you may find that there may be a book about it. My father crashed during a training flight in the peak district Derbyshire during the 2nd World war and the story of the crash was told in a book. We did not know that Dad had had a crash until the person doing research wrote to him in the 1970's. Dad did return to the crash sight and because of the remoteness the wreckage was still there, however I have learnt since that in the last few years some of the air craft may have been recovered for a project to rebuild a plane of the type he crashed in.
It might be worth googling for any books about crashes in the area you are interested in.
Best Wishes
jane

[Jane Gee]

I have just tried looking on amazon David William Earl has written some books on crashes if you struggle to find details of the site the author may be very knowledgable. The author of my Dads book also came up on a search for the same site.

[moonlightdrive]

cheers for the response i am one of them an the ask a local search

[moonlightdrive]

Jane what was the name of the book regarding the search

[Jane Gee]

Hi
Its called "Hell on High Ground:- Guide to Aircraft Hill Crash Sites in the UK & Ireland v2 WW2 Air Crash Sites
Hope this helps

[moonlightdrive]

thanks i've just ordered it on Amazon

[peter nicholl]

According to the WIX Archives it spun into the foreshore 4 miles East of Rhyl at 09.00 on January 19th. Have you tried Rhyl Library?
Peter

[moonlightdrive]

cheers this is getting interesting....what are the archives you have mentioned and are they eadily available

[moonlightdrive]

what woud have been the procedure for rremoving the wrreck and wht would be the chances of finding any thing to do with the crash.

[Jack Richards]

Hi "Moonlightdrive" and friends

The crash occurred in 1940 during WW2, and I am reasonably certain there would have been very strict security at the crash site (security 1940s style!). Local police (probably reserve police - the regulars may have been 'called up' for war service) would have been present to enforce security as would within hours the military.

If it was possible, I believe, the military would have removed the debris "within hours" under strict security.

I am reasonably certain there would have been absolutely no publicity in the newspapers - again "there was a war on and strict security was the word(s)".

If there were survivors, they would most likely have been taken to either the nearest hospital or more likely to a military hospital, depending on the urgency and severity of injuries.

If some (or all) of the crew were of non English i.e say Canadians - they would have most likely have been buried in a "military cemetary" such as for Canadians - Harrogate in North Yorkshire.

At the risk of incurring the wrath of Pam (Bo Peep), please may I draw your attention to an aeroplane crash that occurred in my local village in 1944 with Canadians and English on board. I visited the scene shortly after the crash as a 10 year old and have written the story and have first hand accounts by two surviving members - still in touch with one - two local men, brothers, were later (after the war) presented by King George with BEM medals for their bravery.

Please look at my web site - click on 3rd book from left, Vol 5 and 6, and look at the two chapters Halifax LK930 etc. Hopefully, it will give you some ideas.

Oh and yes some people did collect "souvenirs" later from the nearby field to the crash.

Regards Jack

[moonlightdrive]

i have some information from another site that an ambulance took 7 hours to reach the crash site due to the snow and some of the injured were taken to Rhyl hospital for a while and then transferred to a RAF hospital in Aylesbury and Randal Garrett from Northern Ireland, was the only survivor in a plane, there was mention of live ammnition on board...all we kow is that my Great Uncle died of his injuries and was buried in Belfast...the place of the crash is still proving very hard to find

[peter nicholl]

cheers this is getting interesting....what are the archives you have mentioned and are they eadily available
It's the Warbirds Information Exchange and it looks like either you tried a few years ago, or someone else is interested in the crash: go to
http://www.archive.warbirdinformationexchange.org/archives/post18068.html/

Peter

[peter nicholl]

Sorry, link should be
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/archives/post18068.html/
I don't know what I'm doing wrong, so search warbird anson "N5050" which should give you the correct link. I'm off to get a wet towel and find a darkened room

[peter nicholl]

Sorry, link should be
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/archives/post18068.html
I don't know what I'm doing wrong, so search warbird anson "N5050" which should give you the correct link. I'm off to get a wet towel and find a darkened room
Another go and that is it.

[moonlightdrive]

thanks but the link doesn't seem to be woring ... I have found the site but could you just tell me where you saw the post on the site

[peter nicholl]

They seem to have a new site, I Googled (warbird anson N5050) and there were 2 hits and the top one is the one you need, but on the old site. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I've pasted it below:

A) On the airforce deaths yahoo group someone asks after

LAC 816021 Thomas McClure (Air Gnr), 502 Sqdn R.A.F (Aux. Air Force), Killed 19th Jan.1940

On this date Geoff Negus a 502 Squadron Anson N5050 crashing in a snowstorm near Prestatyn, North Wales, but he doesn't know for a fact that this man was on board.

As 502 Sqn was a Coastal Command unit at this time, can you confirm this was the case?


B) 19/01/40
No.502 Sqn
Anson I
N5050
YG-B
Took off Hooton Park at 08:00 hrs for Convoy Escort.

F/O Garrett
Sgt H C Moorby
AC1 R Beattie
LAC T C McClure

Control was lost in a snow storm and the Anson spun onto the foreshore at 09:00 hrs some 4 miles east of Rhyl. Sgt Moorby rests in Knockbreda Church of Ireland Churchyard, County Down and both AC1 Beattie and LAC McClure died from their injuries and are buried in Kirkmaiden Cemetery, Wigtownshire and Belfast City Cemetery respectively.

HTH
Peter

[moonlightdrive]

thanks everyone for the help you have all given me this has been a great help

[Jane Gee]

Hi Moonlighting
I was interested to read your comments about the time it took to walk from the crash to civilisation, my Dad also said it was some miles to the road from where they crashed. According to the story it was 6 hours before help arrived back and that was 2 RAF bods plus 2 army people with a stretcher! If you are struggling with details of the crash site have you tried the MOD I think Ron Collier who wrote Dads story in his book must have got Dads details ie current address from the MOD/RAF. Dad left in the late 1940s.
I note that the acknowledgements etc say that you should check it is not on private land etc. However I wouldn't be surprised if the wreckage was still there as the plane Dad crashed in had quite a bit of wreckage even after nearly 40 years still in situ. This was probably due to the location and also recovery of all of the plane would not have been practical.
Please keep us posted on how you get on as it has struck a chord with me especially as Dad passed away 2 years ago.

[Geoffers]

If you want to narrow down the location of the crash site, you might get some luck trying the local archaeological group. Local societies are listed in Current Achaeology (it turns up using a search engine).

[moonlightdrive]

After writing to the RAF Museum I was sent the a copy of the crash report (form 1180), which has been very interesting ,I am awaiting more info when i find something out I will let you all know