Crow's Nest in Tottenham

[LittleMissP]

Hiya, today I received a death cert of a relative which says he died in the pub he was licensee of, in 1907. His name was Frederick Frank White and the 'beer house' was called "The Crow's Nest", on Markfield Road in Tottenham, Middlesex. I've had a look on historical directories and on the old pub guide but can't seem to find this pub- any ideas folks? Or am I being daft (distinct possibility!)?

Thanks for looking!

Paula

[Peter Goodey]

Have you tried looking along Markfield Road for the pub in the 1901 census?

Markfield Road starts at RG 13/1249 f 98 p 1 (book number 23)

[mikejee]

If you go to the historical directories site, they have the Kelly's for middlesex for 1914. this shows only two licensed establishments in Markfield road. these are "Ye Olde Severn Sisters) at 11 markfield road, licensee Joseph Brislow, and a "beer retailer", Henry william Clenshaw at no 120.
There are 4 possibilities
1. It is possible that the pub ceased trading between 1907 and 1914.
2. The pub was not included. This does occur in kelly's, particularly towards the end of its life, but usually around this time the directories are pretty inclusive.
3. The term "beer retailer" can mean off or on-license. In studying birmingham pubs, the name of a pub can appear (and occasionally disappear) , being at other times described as "beer retailer" . Sometimes a name is never listed in kelly's but is found in other places, like the census.
4. Could "Ye olde severn sisters " have a local nickname , it being "The crows nest" ?

Don't know if this is any help, but a search of directories covering tottenham over different years looking at markfield road might be useful if you can access them

[LittleMissP]

Thanks for your replies. I've trawled through the 1901 census for this (long!) road and have found a licensed victualler living at no. 11 (obviously what was/ became Ye Old Severn Sisters), a beerhouse keeper at no. 9 (same pub or not or maybe just another of the landlords), and another named pub called the Prince Arthur Tavern at what seems would be no. 122.

None of the above appear in the trade directories! Can't find anything interesting on A2A either

From what you've said I'm now a little confused at what the difference is between a public house, tavern, inn and beer house (etc)? What specifically does off or on license mean- is it whether customers could consume the alcohol on the premises? If I'm understanding correctly then perhaps The Crow's Nest was more of an off licence, i.e. what I would understand nowadays as a shop?

Having had a browse of other answers on this site I think I might try the London Met Archives, but any other ideas very welcome |help|

Thanks again,
Paula

[mikejee]

You certainly seem to have gone into it pretty thoroughly. With regard to your query, an off licence only allows alcohol to be sold for consumption off the premises. I would think it very unlikely that an off licence would have a name such as The Crows nest. Only establishments with licences to sell alcohol on the premises would be likely to be named like this, though I stand to be corrected, as I was not around in 1907(!!). Just a thought though. I take it you are sure it was a licensed establishment, and not , say, a coffee shop, dining rooms or some such.

I think looking at the london archives is your best bet.

mike

[LittleMissP]

I agree with you Mike that a name of The Crow's Nest would imply a pub- never heard of an "offie" with such a title! I think the reason I'm confused is that it does say on the death certificate that the beer house was off license but that Fred was the licensee- that doesn't make sense to me- an off license with a licensee?!! But then maybe that's why I can't find it in the old pub guide. Perhaps entirely by coincidence (or not), Frederick's grandson became a licensed victualler and it sheds a whole new light on a photograph I have of Fred's daughter standing in a pub bottling up...

One last question for you helpful folks then, what is the difference between a licensed victualler and a licensee? Or are they the same thing?

LMA here I come! |5cups|

Thanks

[LittleMissP]

Also can't wait to have a look for the place in the 1911 census!

[Jan1954]

One last question for you helpful folks then, what is the difference between a licensed victualler and a licensee? Or are they the same thing?About the same. Have a look at what HM Revenue and Customs (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/bens/ben09.htm)has to say on the matter. Scroll down the page.

[mikejee]

As I understand it a licensed victualler has a licence to sell alcohol, either on or off the premises. As used in most cases a licensee is the same, but technically the term " a licensee" could be someone who held any sort of licence , say a licence for music and dancing or to sell cigarettes. Also, my memories of English grammar are a bit ancient, but I think it is a slightly different type of noun. You refer to a licensee of a property but not the licensed victualler of the property.

[Jan1954]

Also, my memories of English grammar are a bit ancient, but I think it is a slightly different type of noun. You refer to a licensee of a property but not the licensed victualler of the property.
victualler

/vitt’lhttp://www.askoxford.com/images/phonetics/schwa.gifr/ (US victualer) • noun 1 Brit. a person who is licensed to sell alcoholic liquor. 2 dated a person providing or selling food or other provisions

Source: OED

[Peter Goodey]

I think the reason I'm confused is that it does say on the death certificate that the beer house was off license but that Fred was the licensee- that doesn't make sense to me- an off license with a licensee

You need a licence to sell alcohol to be consumed either on the premises (one type of licence) or off the premises (another type of licence).

You may find records of licensed victuallers at the LMA. I don't know if records of off licensees have survived - I've never heard them mentioned. Ask before travelling ;)

You may like to read this -

http://217.154.230.218/NR/rdonlyres/406638E7-A3EC-417F-B87D-D34A5CD8BD89/0/Infono3.pdf

If this was the Edmonton Division, you may be out of luck.

[LittleMissP]

Thanks for that pdf, yes it sounds like I might be a bit at a brick wall now as The Crow's Nest would have been in Edmonton. I'll contact LMA anyway and ask about off licenses and see if they have any ideas about records. I'll perhaps come back to this issue rather than go round in circles with it, though first might try my luck to see if the coroner's report on the death still exists somewhere (I know my hopes aren't good here).

Thanks for all your help with this, each new thing that genealogy throws up always at least teaches me something new!

[suzannewozere2]

Don't forget to try the archives @ Bruce Castle Museum.
There maybe mention in Fisk's History of Tottenham from about 1920.

[suzannewozere2]

A lively pictorial and social history of pubs over the past 500
years, including The Swan in Tottenham, The Gate House at
Highgate, The Green Man, Muswell Hill and many more
pubs, past and present. Tempus, £12.99

www.
haringey.gov.uk/local_history_publications_list.pdf