Mary Anne Found My Cad!

[Penny Gallo]

I started this on another thread http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?p=226057&posted=1#post226057 - "Rapid City - Rapid Getaway", and Mary Anne in a trice found me so much information that I have had to re-label my man Black Sheep. There is no doubt about it.

It seems that Charles William Turner, a builder from Lutterworth, might have eloped in March 1886 with the granddaughter of the Rector of Templeton. She seems to have falsified her age. They then skedaddled off to Canada about the SS Parisian (Mary Anne found this and may other details), leaving Liverpool and arriving in Halifax on 17th March 1887. The passenger list consists almost entirely of Ag Labs, and Charles William Turner described himself thus. Both Mary Anne and Pottocka, as well as myself who lay awake thinking about it last night, suspect that this was some sort of assisted passage for a Re-Settlement Scheme. Manitoba, and Rapid City where they ended up, was prime territory in the late 1880s-1890s for expansion, and a builder could have done quite well.

Once in Rapid City, Madeline Edith Pole (now describing her maiden name as "de la Pole", perhaps to throw anyone off the scent) gave birth to Madeline, their daughter. I knew nothing of this.

How I found Charles was from the other end, as it were. The sister of my maternal greatgrandmother happened to be living next door to her on the 1901 census. The census enumerator, who was presumably a local, inserted above the name Harriett Redmill - who had called herself W(idow) - "Divorced, 2nd marriage". Well, we knew nothing about this. I set too, and soon found her second marriage, to Charles William Turner in 1892. This name rang a bell, as funnily enough, my maternal gt grandmother had married a Turner, and there, amongst his brothers was Charles William Turner.

Of course it is a not unique name, but when I found him on the 1901 census, the enumerator of Lutterworth had also been busy. Charles had now dropped the Charles and was calling himself William Turner. He had claimed he was S(ingle), but the good old nosey-parker of an enumerator had again inserted "Divorced", crossing out the S. I knew it was definitely the right Turner because he had his daughter living with him, one Madeline Turner, born in Rapid City, Manitoba, Canada.

I had been startled when I first found her thus described, living at the grandparent Turners, on the 1891 census, as this was the first I'd heard of this generation's Canadian connection. That was when I went hunting in Canadian records, found Madeline's birth, and that her mother's maiden name was Madeline Edith de la Pole. Wrongly I presumed her to be French Canadian. Puzzled and geographically lost, I posted yesterday on our Canada forum - and Lo! Mary Anne swooped down and found so much that I knew I had to transport Charles William Turner to Black Sheep.

I now have two avenues. Firstly to send for the marriage certificate of Charles William Turner and Madeline Pole. This will confirm - or not - whether she is the daughter of respectable Middle Class parents who would be unlikely to approve of their darling going off with a builder under disguise as an Ag Lab's wife to Canada. It would also explain why, when he sailed back to England with the child, and she seems to have fallen ill - whether before or after, I cannot yet say, she died out in 1891 there under the name of Turner and the false maiden name of de la Pole. Mary Anne has explained I could get a copy death certificate for that (although not cheaply).

I also have in the National Archives, the divorce papers (I located them from Geoffer's instructions to someone else) for Charles William and Harriett Turner, whom he had married in 1892. The divorce was heard in 1900, and there was no other party named, so I suspect Harriett simply discovered what a rotter Charles was. Perhaps he drank, womanised generally, was violent, deserted her - I shan't know until I can look at the papers.

Well, I shall keep you all posted - and very many sincere thanks to Mary Anne - without whom this revelation would not have been possible!

[Thomasin]

Well done, the three of you. I was following the story last night, but you have put it together this morning in an excellently readable way. What a wonderfully convoluted tale to put in your family history folder - elopement, name changes, disguise of occupation, desertion, ?kidnapping. A true Black Sheep of the first order.

Are you going to investigate Madeline's parents further?

Thomasin

[Penny Gallo]

I shall indeed be looking closely at her family, but of course at the moment, until I get that marriage certificate, I am still speculating. Just because I can't find another Madeline Pole doesn't mean to say that there isn't one - I have to remind myself not to chase after enticing will o' the wisps at least until they have my lady's name on them!

Thank you for saying that the story has emerged lucidly! |hug|

[Rubina]

Hi Penny

I was busy most of yesterday taking a chisel and hammer to one of my brickwalls so I missed the build up and conclusion of your Madeline and he who shall be nameless (the cad!).

I have read your story this morning and it is fascinating! What a great story to keep for your family history book!

I am also amazed at how much you, Pottacka and May Anne have discovered in such a short time! That Charles de Cad had no chance of getting away from you two! Ha to you Charlie boy!

I wonder, do you know what sort of life he led after he got back here?

Robina

[Lesley Robertson]

What an excellent story! Congratulations to all of you on some good detective work.

About that name change - de la Pole was the name of one of the English noble houses (eg the 15th century Dukes of Suffolk carried the name) and I was wondering whether she was trying to improve their apparent social standing by "upgrading her surname"? The noble line died (actually were executed) out, but the name must have retained a certain cachet.
I assume that the Cad didn't continue to pretend to be an ag lab once he arrived in the New World?
Lesley

[Mary Anne]

Penny

How wonderful!! |hug| and what a great description you wrote.

(I mean not wonderful that Chas was a cad but wonderful to have found all these trails -- still he must have had something to recommend him....):o

I am also intrigued by Geoffers' finding of the London Gazette article about the partnership dissolution...somehting htere, I'll bet.

What a guy!!

P.S. did you find young Madeline's birth somewhere? did you get the cert? I wonder if it would tell anything useful?

[Penny Gallo]

for the continuing suggestions. Yes, I think it very possible that Madeline romanticised her name, not only as a disguise but because she had maybe been told a a child about the "de la Pole" family - it would certainly fit in with the romance of elopement!

This is going to keep me very busy, and I can hardly wait for the first certificate to wing its way to me with some concrete proof!

I note Geoffers has given a lot more suggestions on the Canadian thread - he seems to know the Archives inside out, and has suggested a bit of unfortunate business dealing by "Charles the Cad" (love that!) may have gone on, so I have that to investigate too. Certainly he changed occupation, leaving the family one of Builder, and by 1901 having become a Cycle Agent (he certainly moved with the times), so I might be able to find out more about his business activities.

Yes, I imagine him having fine moustaches - I bet he twirled them, whilst gazing into women's eyes....

I am going to have a hunt around now, as I still haven't found a possible marriage for Madeline Turner, and I would have thought, as she was 13 in 1901, that she would be just a tiny bit too old to have been affected in the marriage stakes by the carnage of the Great War.

I'll let you know when I find anything else.

So glad you demolished your own brickwall - what a great feeling that is! xxx Penny |wave|

[pottoka]

I found the reference I mentioned to you about Charles maybe making use of a scheme for ag. labs to emigrate. It's in the book " My ancestor was an Agricultural Labourer" by Ian H Waller. It's possibly less conclusive than I had thought, but, with the whole ship being full of them, it might be the case.

The book says "Emigration was also encouraged particularly by the Poor Law Authorities who targeted the farm labourer and his family, initially with emigration to the USA, but later to places like Canada, Australia and New Zealand. (...)
Authority to pay emigration expenses and fares from the parish rate was written into the Poor law Amendment Act of 1834. Sometimes the wealthy land owners helped by paying part of the expenses but the link was between the vestry and the emigration commissioners in London, who oversaw the operation. (...)
Parishes very often set up emigration funds to help those from the parish emigrate. Such funds were often by subscription and anyone, who wanted to, could contribute. Donations were often made by the local friendly society or the branch of the agricultural labourers union."

[Penny Gallo]

Now the fact that he was actually a builder and I don't think his family were doing too badly means that if they did take advantage of this under a Poor Law scheme, there must have been some jiggery-pokery on someone's part smuggling them onto the list.

We shall be able to speculate further once I get the certificate - I am even wondering now that you have said that the Church was active in the selection for some of these places, that maybe her family arranged this when they discovered about the wedding, rather than it being a case of the young couple fleeing romantically. Maybe it was a sort of ticket-of-leave thing in order that her family would not have the shame of her?

Lots of possibilities here! I wonder if we shall ever get to the bottom of this one - it's sounding very much like a Victorian novel - rather Thomas Hardy-ish!

[Geoffers]

Now the fact that he was actually a builder and I don't think his family were doing too badly means that if they did take advantage of this under a Poor Law scheme, there must have been some jiggery-pokery on someone's part smuggling them onto the list.


The dissolved partnership just mentions a name, business and location - it could of course be someone different - it could even be his dad? (Like father, like son).

Anything on the business in local directories (try historical-diectories if you don't possess the CDs).


I bet your imagination is working overtime, trying to figure out possible courses of events.

[Penny Gallo]

Yes, I know that one business venture which was started by my grandfather and his brother did go belly-up because the brother wasn't at all talented or diligent (these were nephews of Charles the Cad), so it was the same surname, but later. Turner is a relatively common surname, which is why I was so lucky with the more unusual Madeline, and the Census Enumerators having been so precise in their annotations of birth-places and divorces.

Yes, it is the sort of story which everytime someone posts another possible clue, my imagination froths over anew, like adding more yeast!

I still haven't started this morning's intended search for Madeline's marriage as I keep reading all the other fascinating threads on Brit Gen.

[Mary Anne]

Penny

While thinking of emigration schemes, think also of immigration schemes. In the 1880s and 1890s the Canadian Pacific Railway was offering workers money to come to Canada. Also ship's passage. It may not be possible to prove beyond a doubt that the Parisian was a ship that carried a lot of these, at least from the one page I looked at (I didn't look at the whole ship, pottocka -- although it might be instructive to do so). Many of the men who later enlisted in the CEF were Brits who had come to Canada this way.

They would not have had to prove any kind of destitute state, nor skills, to qualfy - just be willing hands. And for a young man who was trying to elope with a minor, it might have looked too good to be true! That he then left her, coldly, and took their daughter back to England with him, was reprehensible.

Wonder if he knew she was ill? Or maybe she had already moved to the City (Winnipeg) to get away from him, although one would think she would have taken the daughter with her?

Just had a thought -- wonder if he might show up in any directories of the period? Unfortunately not many directories online, but if you wrote to the Manitoba genealogical society, someone might be willing/able to do a lookup for you. It would give his occupation in Rapid City...

Ah, we may never know, but it is fun speculating, isn't it?

Mary Anne

[Penny Gallo]

We suspected an elopement at the behest of the bold builder Charles, the young bride giving herself airs claiming a more venerable version of her name, the well-to-do family left behind (oh, what would her mother have been feeling about her lost daughter?) and were shocked at Charles' rapid abandonment of her, his grabbing the baby and skedaddling back to the bosom of his family in England, only to re-marry at the earlier opportunity...

Now read on....


1866 Henry Lionel Pole, born 1846, one of a large family whose grandfather was Rector of Templeton, and who had uncles working in the Civil Service out in Ceylon, and family owning land in Cornwall, married Madeline Gertrude Walshe.

April 1867 Birth of Madeline Edith Pole.

1871 Census Night: (1) Madeline Gertrude Pole and Madeline Edith Pole are staying at Templeton Rectory with the Pole family - extensive in number, and with servants.

(2) Henry, now describing himself as Henry L dela Pole, is in respectable-sounding lodgings in Bloomsbury, London presumably to do with his occupation, "Public Accountant".

Now comes the first sensation:

1873, Divorce Court File J 77/138/2967: Appellant Henry Lionel Pole, Respondent Madeline Gertrude Pole, Co-Respondent Whitmarsh

http://www.tate.org.uk/research/tateresearch/tatepapers/07spring/rutherford.htm - cue illustration of Augustus Egg's painting of the middle class Victorian wife found out!!! An adulterous lady! Scandal of the most extreme proportions! Divorce on whatever grounds at this time would have entailed absolute scandal, especially in a family living in a Rectory! Automatically, children of the marriage would go to the father.

1875 Madeline Gertrude nee Walshe marries William Gilbert Whitmarsh.

1879 Madeline Gertrude Whitmarsh dies at Eastbourne, aged 34.

1881 Census Night: Henry L de la Pole, aged 34, now Agent for Midland Railway turns up in Ipswich married to 24 year old Mary from Islington. The children of his marriage to Madeline Gertrude are with him, except that poor Madeline Edith (now aged 13) is mere Edith, the tainted name "Madeline" expunged! (Everyone is noted born in the correct place, so there is no doubt this is the right family.)

1886 20th March - Madeline Edith Pole "21 years" (actually 19) is married to Charles William Turner "Builder" in the Independent Chapel "according to the rites and ceremonies of the Independents by Licence". Her father is named as Henry Lionel Pole, but neither of the witnesses are family members, and the parish is that of the groom, a very small Midland town called Lutterworth.

1887 17th March - Charles and Madeline Edith Turner arrive in Halifax aboard the SS Parisian, under the label "Ag Labs".

1888 Their daughter Madeline Turner is born in Rapid City, Manitoba.

1891 Census Night UK - Charles Wm Turner, together with his daughter Madeline Turner, are living at the house of Charles' parents in Lutterworth. He is described once again as "builder", she as 3 years old, and born in Rapid City, Manitoba.

1891 4th October, Madeline Edith Turner nee Pole dies in Winnipeg, her maiden name noted as "de la Pole".

1892 Charles W Turner remarries.

1900 Charles W Turner divorced by his second wife.

1901 Census Night - Charles W Turner and his 13 year old daughter live together at Lutterworth. He now describes himself as Cycle Agent (and "S"ingle, although the Census Enumerator knew better, crossed this out and wrote "Divorced").


So, that's the story so far. None of this is speculation but is taken from records. I can speculate. I imagine that Madeline Edith Pole must have suffered great emotional distress being parted from her mother in a manner that was presumably not clearly explained to the children. Was she told that her mother had died? Perhaps it was stressed that this was the just rewards of immoral behaviour. Certainly she had no choice of which parent she would stay with. Did her father take against her because of the associations of his scandalous ex-wife's name? How did Madeline and Charles meet? Certainly not through approved means such as at her respectable grandfather's! What exactly are the ramifications of the marriage in the "Independent Chapel", by Licence (clandestine? hurried? Certainly not performed by her grandfather!) What went wrong with the marriage? Perhaps the young bride soon started to feel unwell - not having been brought up to a hard, pioneering life? Perhaps her husband was a wolf in sheep's clothing, and not the safe or romantic harbour she had sought from the stigma of her blemished English life?

These are things I suppose I shall never know, but it's been an amazing story brought out of total darkness after over a century. Absolutely not a whisper of this percolated to the next generation of the Turner family. I am sure that the respectable Pole family would likewise have wiped Madeline Edith from their pedigree.

I have sent Mary Anne a message so that she can read it Canadian time, and see what the fruits of our joint investigations have turned up. Thank you. Madeline couldn't have re-appeared without you! xxxx Penny

[Astoria]

This is absolutely fascinating, what a piece of research, hats off to you all.

[Geoffers]

Congratulations, you must have a well deserved and nice feeling of success - and many thanks for letting us know what happened - it's always nice to read an outcome for one of these mysteries. Have you found out anything about Mr Whitmarsh from census - his background, was he an older man (or a toy boy??). Are you going to order the divorce papers (it's a simple process) to see if they give any detail?

[Thomasin]

This is an amazing story, and even more so by being true. It reads like one of those Victorian novels - (weren't they called 'shockers'?) - and it really would repay writing it up in that style! You have all the ingredients, the respectable family, the wayward wife, divorce, the gently raised young woman falling for the Cad, death, deserted children, travel .... go for it, Penny!

Well done again to all of you! |cheers|

Thomasin

[Mary Anne]

Wow, Penny, what a tale! Poor Madeline, as you say, she seems to have been shunned and mistreated, first by her own father, then by her Cad of a husband -- and I think you are right about him being a Cad - one more clue is the second wife divorcing him. And then there was Madeline left alone, presumably, for at least 6 months, to die in Winnipeg!

I agree, a good Victorian "shocker" or a cautionary tale to sweet young things.

|hug|

How wonderful!! Glad to have helped.


Mary Anne
(in the rain |rant|, soon to be frozen solid and dangerously slippery, in Ottawa)

[v.wells]

I found this whole story fascinating and I think you should take out publishing rights Penny and get a movie made :D

Kudos to MaryAnn for helping you on this :D

[Astoria]

I'm thinking Nigel Havers as the Cad, is he caddish enough, certainly pleasing on the eye in a oldie worldie kind of way, or the chap from the coffee ad. don't know his name.

[Jan1954]

...the chap from the coffee ad. don't know his name.
Anthony Head :)

[v.wells]

Is it the Maaxwell House coffee commercial? We had one of those a few years ago in Canada and every week was a story line, so each one was different. Don't know why they stopped using it but it was fun to watch.

[Astoria]

That's the chap Vanessa, Anthony Head. as Jan said, she knows EVERYTHING :)

[Jan1954]

That's the chap Vanessa, Anthony Head. as Jan said, she knows EVERYTHING :)Nearly...;)


Is it the Maaxwell House coffee commercial?
Gold Blend, not Maxwell House...:o

How sad is that, that I know that..... |shakehead

[Mary Anne]

Jan, Jan, Jan |scold| not sad. It just means you have a PHENOMENAL memory :)

[Thomasin]

In any case, not Nigel Havers - he's much too nice. How about Jack Nicholson? He gives me the creeps.

Thomasin

[Penny Gallo]

Remember he must have had something to attract all these women, so he must have been quite prepossessing on the outside! I am very amused that this has taken on a - script of its own!|wave|

I am busy tracking the man that our poor Winnipeg-bound Madeline's mother disgraced the family with, and think that I have got him. More details later.

[v.wells]

Pearce Brosnan would do lovely as the CAD :D I almost go weak in the knees looking at him!

[Bella Pucci]

Madeline Edith de la Pole was the eldest sister of my husbands Great-Grandfather, Frederick Ernest Francis Walter de la Pole born about 1871 in Devon. I was most interested to come across your information as we know very little about this side of our family. FEFW de la Pole had two sons by Jane Ethel Corrigan. The eldest, John Henry de la Pole was born in Dublin in 1897 and his brother Frederick Charles de la Pole was born in Belfast in 1900. I have the birth certificates for the two sons but have been unable to locate birth, marriage or death records for the parents. We believe the sons were orphaned as very young children and were raised in a village near Coventry, West Midlands. We do however know that this branch of the de la Pole's are descended from the Devon family whose seat is Shute Barton, Axminster, Devon. There are still distant relatives living in the Coventry area to confirm this. We have long believed that there was a shameful secret in the family as grandfather John Henry would never discuss family matters. We had assumed it was FEFW who had possibly eloped and not his sister Madeline!

[Penny Gallo]

This is amazing! It is fascinating that The Family at least hinted at the existence of a scandal, whereas not a squeak came down on our side.

I note that some of the Pole family had a strong connection with the Civil Service in Ceylon, and one contributed to archaeological finds at Maskeliya and Matale. These Pole-s remain easy to track through the census because of their exotic birthplace names, eg Annie M Pole born at Vavanie, Vulaukulam ("Cousin", 1901 at 274 King's Road, Chelsea, working on own account, "Register Office" - perhaps for respectable vicars' daughters wanting to work as governesses????).

It does not seem to have done William Gilbert Whitmarsh much of benefit to snatch Edith from her first husband. She died only a few years after their marriage, and he seems to have gone down the social strata: I imagine that his clients would not have been at all happy associating with a man who had been named in such a divorce, and probably took their business elsewhere. I suspect Edith died as complications from childbirth. There was one surviving son (who was not christened until several years after his birth and after Edith had finally died) from Edith and her second marriage. On the 1901 census, there is a Henry J E Whitmarsh, aged 23, working as an Inland Revenue Officer and staying in Fishguard, Pembrokeshire. I believe this is her son. I wonder if he married and had descendants? If so, I strongly suspect there is another family with one or two suprises in the "Who DoThink You Are?" style.

Thank you for posting your message. I am now going to telephone my Mum and tell her that we have "met"!

With very best wishes
Penny

[The_Doog]

Even if this story of Madeline Edith's fate is true and its sensational nature certainly makes it hard to believe, it solves only one third of the mystery of what happened to the three siblings (Madeline Edith, Edward Lionel and Ernest Percival) after the divorce in 1874 of their father, Henry Lionel POLE, from Madeline Gertrude WALSHE, as all three siblings disappear from U.K. Census data after the 1881 Census.

I guessed that all three probably went abroad and possibly together but if Madeline Edith went to Canada accompanied only by her new husband (Charles William TURNER), where did her two brothers go? [The fourth sibling, John Gasper, stayed in the U.K.]

I am most interested in what happened to Ernest Percival but I am also interested in what happened to Edward Lionel, as a possible descendant of Ernest Percival reportedly claimed a blood relationship (first cousin) to a descendant of Edward Lionel.

The youngest child of Henry Lionel POLE & Madeline Gertrude WALSHE was born on 27 August 1871 in the parish of Cruwys Morchard, Tiverton, Devon and registered in the name of Ernest Percival POLE. However, he was baptised (by his grandfather, Edward POLE ) on 7 April 1872 in the parish of Templeton, Tiverton, Devon as Ernest Frederick POLE.

Has anyone come across any trace of Ernest Frederick POLE / DE LA POLE after the 1881 U.K. Census?

[The_Doog]

Acting on a tip-off that the two brothers might have joined the Klondike gold-rush, I started an investigation. I found a very useful website (http://www.yukongenealogy.com/index.htm) which assists genealogists conducting research into the Yukon.

This proved that one brother, Edward Lionel, did indeed join the Klondike gold-rush. He filed 21 gold-mining claims between 1901 and 1923. His first wife, Mamie, also filed a gold-mining claim between 1904 and 1906. Mamie (1872 - ?) had a daughter, Dorothy B., who was to prove to be Edward Lionel's only child. Edward Lionel's second wife, Alma, did not bear him any children.

During his lifetime, Edward Lionel added a third Christian name of Carew (old family name) and changed his surname from POLE to DE LA POLE. On 24 March 1890, he swore on oath of his intention to become a citizen of the U.S.A., citizenship which was eventually granted to him on 16 May 1949.

Edward Lionel Carew (22 April 1868 - 1953) died in San Francisco. Alma (1883 - 1969) also died in San Francisco. Dorothy B. (1897 - 1969) never married and died (presumably childless) in Los Angeles, in the same year as her step-mother.

This solves the second of the three strands of the mystery of what happened to the three siblings but it has not shed any light on the third and final strand as to what happened to Ernest (Percival ==>) Frederick.

As yet absolutely nothing has been found about Ernest Frederick so I have neither been able to prove nor disprove the previous post (from Bella Pucci) that he went to Ireland, reversed his Christian names from Ernest Frederick to Frederick Ernest, added a third Christian name of Francis, added a fourth Christian name of Walter and married Jane Ethel CORRIGAN who bore him two sons.

Acting on another tip-off (this time from a relation) that, if I was interested in the POLE / DE LA POLE Family, I should consult The National Trust Guidebook to Antony (the famous house in Cornwall), I did so. Inside the back cover is a Family Tree of the CAREWs of Antony. This includes Edward POLE (1758 - 1837), the great grandfather of Madeline Edith, Edward Lionel and Ernest Frederick, and traces his (and thus their) ancestry back to Sir Nicholas CAREW (? - 1447). I found this Family Tree data much easier to understand than the, admittedly more comprehensive, data in Burke's Peerage & Baronetage and recommend it to others interested in the POLE / DE LA POLE Family.

[Zoe Broom]

Charles William Turner was my great grandfather. What is not mentioned here is that he had a third wife. They had a daughter in 1921 and she, my grandmother, is still alive.

[The_Doog]

I can't find any evidence that the Charles William TURNER who married Madeline Edith POLE had a daughter in 1921. The most probable explanation is that one of us has found information relating to a different Charles William TURNER and wrongly attributed it Madeline Edith POLE's husband. But, which one of us has made the mistake?

My information on Madeline Edith POLE's husband is given in the following timeline of birth, marriages, children and death, showing the FreeBMD references for those events that took place in England.

birth of Charles William TURNER: Q3 1861, Lutterworth [R.D.], Vol. 7a, p. 10;
1st marriage to Madeline Edith POLE: Q1 1886, Lutterworth [R.D.], Vol. 7a, p. 27;
birth of Madeline Annie TURNER: 21 Aug 1887, Rapid City, Manitoba, Canada;
second marriage to Harriet Ann (REDMILL née) WILLS: Q3 1892, Northampton [R.D.], Vol. 3b, p. 126;
third marriage to Alice DAVIES: Q3 1903, Warwick [R.D.], Vol. 6d, p. 1181;
birth of Frank TURNER: Q2 1904, Lutterworth [R.D.], Vol. 7a, p. 2;
birth of Charles Davis TURNER: Q2 1906, Lutterworth [R.D.], Vol. 7a, p. 1;
death of Charles William TURNER: 18 Jan 1946, Lutterworth [R.D.], Vol. 7a, p. 3.

Despite over four years of research, I still can't find any clue as to what happened to Madeline Edith POLE's brother Ernest (Percival ==>) Frederick POLE after the 1881 U.K. Census.

[Zoe Broom]

My grandmother's name was Dorothy Margaret Turner, born April 25, 1921 in Lutterworth. Her father's name was Charles William Turner; he was 57 when she was born. Her mother's name was Alice Davies. She had two brothers whom she never met. Frank died at the age of about 11 from rhumatic fever; Charles Davis Turner had sever epilepsy and was sent to live in an institution called Carlton Hayes.

My grandmother told us of her father's travels to Canada and that his first wife couldn't handle the winters in rural Manitoba so she left. What is curious is that the father and the little girl Madeline were already back in England when the mother died in a Winnipeg hospital.

Given all the details that match and given that Lutterworth had a population of ~3000 at the time, there is little chance that we are talking about two different Charles William Turners.

She met her half sister Madeline but it sounded like Madeline didn't want much to do with them. Grandma said Madeline lived in Eastbourne and one day said she was moving and that she would let them know of her new address once she had moved. She never contacted my grandmother or my greatgrandmother again.

I began this research because my grandmother wanted to know what happened to her sister. Grandama died June 3, 2014.

[The_Doog]

Thanks a million for your response!

So, it was my mistake and thanks to you it has been corrected. I should have found the

birth of Dorothy M. TURNER: Q2 1921, Lutterworth [R.D.], Vol. 7a, p. 8

but I hadn't. Although it was 15 years after the birth of Charles Davis TURNER, I would have expected to find it and can't explain why I didn't.

The additional information is fascinating so thanks for that too. If I ever find any trace of Madeline Annie TURNER after she moved away from Eastbourne, I'll post the information to this thread.