19C Metropolitan Police Criminal Records

[Sue Mackay]

I have discovered a black sheep in my family. For years I had been trying to find out what happened to my great grandfather, John CHANDLER, who was named on his youngest child's birth certificate in Norwood in 1856 and then disappeared off the face of the earth. Now, thanks to two snippets found in a 19th Century newspaper database, I know what happened to him!

Liverpool Mercury 28 August 1858:
Notice was on Monday communicated to the Metropolitan Police that Mr. John Chandler, plumber, Norwood, had embezzled large sums of money and decamped. His body was immediately after found in the River Lea.

North Wales Chronicle 28 August 1858:
Information has been communicated to the various metropolitan police stations for the detention or apprehension of Mr. John Chandler, plumber, who resided at Knight’s Hill, Norwood, who has decamped having embezzled monies to a very considerable amount. The offender is described to be 50 years of age, 5 foot 9 inches in height, and bald headed.

Obviously I would love to know details of the embezzlement, but it looks as if he threw himself in the river when discovered, so there is no point in looking for a trial. Does anyone know if one can access 19th century criminal records of the Metropolitan Police? TNA Research Guides seem to deal with employees of the Met, and googling for criminal records gives one oodles of references for checking on modern criminal records.

I suppose there would have been a Coroner's Inquest following a body fished out of the River Lea. My knowledge of the East End is none too good - where would that be likely to be held if it exists?

[Kerrywood]

Does anyone know if one can access 19th century criminal records of the Metropolitan Police?

I've tried to find these before, without success. I'm told that unless a case actually went to court, the Met police records were not preserved for long and have not survived to be deposited anywhere. But I stand to be corrected if others know better.


I suppose there would have been a Coroner's Inquest following a body fished out of the River Lea. My knowledge of the East End is none too good - where would that be likely to be held if it exists?

It depends exactly where the body was recovered -- the Middlesex side or the Essex side, and how far north. The death certificate should tell you which Coroner presided at the inquest and in which district he worked. That will be the clue to finding if any records survive. But if it was the Eastern Middlesex coroner's district there are no depositions for that date. There may be some coroner's registers at the LMA, but these will tell you no more than the death certificate itself.

I'd suggest you get the certificate, hopefully to pinpoint the location, and then try to identify a newspaper local to that area which might have carried a fuller report than you found in the other papers. There won't be many at this early date, but you might just find something.

Not much help really, I'm afraid :(
Kerrywood

[Sue Mackay]

I've tried to find these before, without success. I'm told that unless a case actually went to court, the Met police records were not preserved for long and have not survived to be deposited anywhere. But I stand to be corrected if others know better.

That was rather what I feared.



It depends exactly where the body was recovered -- the Middlesex side or the Essex side, and how far north. The death certificate should tell you which Coroner presided at the inquest and in which district he worked. That will be the clue to finding if any records survive.

Therein lies the rub. Even with a more or less exact date of death I still can't see a likely candidate for his death certificate. On my next visit to London I am going to try a few of the London papers that are not included in the Gale 19th Century digitisations (where I finally found out what happened to John Chandler) and hopefully can chip a little more mortar out of the wall. But - a few days ago he had just disappeared. Now I know that he was an embezzler, threw himself in the River Lea - and was bald!!



Not much help really, I'm afraid :(
Kerrywood

At least you have reassured me that I haven't overlooked the blindingly obvious :D Thanks.

[Sue Mackay]

Even with a more or less exact date of death I still can't see a likely candidate for his death certificate.

I have had another look at the death indexes and I have decided to take a punt on the John George Chandler whose death was registered in the December quarter of 1858 in Hackney. Nothing else comes remotely close in that year, and although I never knew him to have a middle name I have realised that Hackney is close to the River Lea and if there was an inquest there might have been a delay in registering the death. One wonders if anyone actually bothered to tell poor Amelia back home in Norwood. She didn't call herself a widow till the day she died!

[Kerrywood]

I have had another look at the death indexes and I have decided to take a punt on the John George Chandler whose death was registered in the December quarter of 1858 in Hackney. Nothing else comes remotely close in that year, and ... Hackney is close to the River Lea and if there was an inquest there might have been a delay in registering the death.

I was just in the middle of typing exactly this in reply to your last, so I needn't bother now |biggrin|

Kerrywood

[Geoffers]

I've tried to find these before, without success. I'm told that unless a case actually went to court, the Met police records were not preserved for long and have not survived to be deposited anywhere. But I stand to be corrected if others know better.

'tis the same with most forces. Papers go for shredding after a few years unless it is a major crime. A general book for recording everything and anything used to exist, called an Occurrence Book (O.B) by many forces. Sometimes 19th century OBs do survive and can provide a lot of useful information, I have no idea whether any survive for the Met.

[Sue Mackay]

I have had another look at the death indexes and I have decided to take a punt on the John George Chandler whose death was registered in the December quarter of 1858 in Hackney. Nothing else comes remotely close in that year, and although I never knew him to have a middle name I have realised that Hackney is close to the River Lea and if there was an inquest there might have been a delay in registering the death. One wonders if anyone actually bothered to tell poor Amelia back home in Norwood. She didn't call herself a widow till the day she died!

The certificate came this morning and sadly it's not him. It's the death of a child in Hackney, son of yet another John Chandler.

Ah well, no-one said this was easy. Must get to Colindale.

[Penny Gallo]

Howhttp://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-confused-smileys-304.gif (http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/Free-Confused-Smileys/) frustrating! These 'black sheep' cause us so much frustration, but I'm sure you'll get there in the end - and how rewarding when you do find him!

[Sue Mackay]

To update this old thread, this time I've got my fingers firmly crossed. Thanks to the GRO adding ages to their death indexes, I have had another look for John Chandler's death certificate. At least I have been able to discount all the myriad John Chandlers who died in London as children! I have sent for one in Edmonton, the right area for the River Lea, and although it's for 1860 I'm hoping it took them that long to sort out the paperwork. The age is about right. If this one proves wrong then I think I'll finally give up!

[Lesley Robertson]

I've found another newspaper report which is worth including because it gives a description of him.

"Saunders’s News Letter Wed 25 Aug 1858
Extensive Embezzlement.— Monday information was communicated to the various police-stations in the City and other parts of the metropolis, for the detention or apprehension of Mr John Chandler, plumber, who resided at Knight’s-hill, Norwood, and has decamped, having embezzled monies to a very considerable amount. It is supposed will make for some seaport, intending emigrate to America or Australia. The offender described to be 50 years of age, five feet nine inches in height, and bald-headed. A large reward is offered for his apprehension. We have since learnt that the body found in the River Lea yesterday is that of the missing individual."

[Sue Mackay]

No good for me, but if anyone is looking for 18C coroners' inquests in the London area there are original images (with transcripts) available at https://www.londonlives.org/index.jsp, which is a bit of a treasure trove.

[Sue Mackay]

To update this old thread, this time I've got my fingers firmly crossed. Thanks to the GRO adding ages to their death indexes, I have had another look for John Chandler's death certificate. At least I have been able to discount all the myriad John Chandlers who died in London as children! I have sent for one in Edmonton, the right area for the River Lea, and although it's for 1860 I'm hoping it took them that long to sort out the paperwork. The age is about right. If this one proves wrong then I think I'll finally give up!

Blow! Not him. I'm giving up on this death certificate now. At least I know how and when he died. He was a plumber and glazier who probably worked on the Crystal Palace, so plenty of opportunity there for embezzlement.

[elsinore]

Sue, there is another possible death registered in the first quarter of 1860 which could be your man.

John CHANDLER age at death 55, Waterloo Road Second in the County of Surrey, Vol 01D Page 224.

Waterloo Road Second was a sub-district of Lambeth which includes Norwood.

The transcript also states "Additional Copy: A", a phrase which doesn't appear in other entries, which suggests something out of the ordinary!

At least, if you have one more try, it should only cost you £6 for a pdf!

Peter