East Surrey help

[perisama]

|oopsredfa I put this in a reply on a thread by mistake.. so here it is again on a new thread

I e-mailed a lovely lady from Kent FHS regarding a birth and marriage look up from mid 1700's and she was soooooooo helpful and didn't make me join up, pay or even ask for a pint of blood! |hug|

But.... can anyone out there help me with East Surrey? I have some delving needed regarding Caterham, Godstone and Lingfield but if I spend any more money on my research I think i will end up being divorced by His Nibs who does not understand what or why I spend hours and hours at this. He's got no soul (but he does all the shopping and cooking, you are all invited to dinner on Sunday by the way. He will be so pleased!! :D

I digress, sorry. Anyway I basically am scrounging I suppose for anyone who can help. ;)

p.s. Dinner is at 6pm

[Peter Goodey]

www.
eastsurreyfhs.org.uk

[Thomasin]

I would have thought that much of your information in Surrey would be housed in the Croydon Archives (at least in microfiche form), and I would be only too pleased to do some lookups for you, if need be. See what the East Surrey FHS can come up with, and if you need help in Croydon, just let me know.

What's for dinner?

Thomasin

[perisama]

Hi Thomasin... How about nice bit of Roast Beef???
Help? Yes please. Need to look up marriage of

George Pratt (May 15 1764, Hayes,Kent - May 10 1850 Caterham)
to
Elizabeth Woolgar (Jan 5th 1774, Lingfield - May 19th 1850, Caterham)

First 3 children Mary, 1812,
Sarah Ann,1814
William, 1816 were all born in Lingfield
Elizabeth was georges 2nd wife accordng to old stuff I have from my mum, 1st wife was a Mary Edgar or Moore????

See what you come up with and you can have an extra helping of pudding:)

[Kerrywood]

Need to look up marriage of

George Pratt (May 15 1764, Hayes,Kent - May 10 1850 Caterham)
to
Elizabeth Woolgar (Jan 5th 1774, Lingfield - May 19th 1850, Caterham)

First 3 children Mary, 1812,
Sarah Ann,1814
William, 1816 were all born in Lingfield
Elizabeth was georges 2nd wife accordng to old stuff I have from my mum, 1st wife was a Mary Edgar or Moore????

These dates don't quite support what you have, but the new Surrey Marriage Index (West Surrey FHS) has the following marriages

Lingfield
22 Nov 1787
George PRATT = Mary EDGAR

Lingfield
8 Feb 1812
George PRATT = Elizabeth WOOLGER
by Licence

No further details in the index. For more information you will probably need to consult the original registers (or films thereof). I should think these would be at the Surrey History Centre in Woking rather than Croydon?

http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/surreyhistoryservice

Alternatively, LDS seem to have filmed the marriages up to 1812, so a copy of their film could be ordered into your local LDS Family History Centre.

Kerrywood

[Thomasin]

There's a coincidence here - Hayes is just round the corner from where I live.

Kerrywood is right, Woking would definitely have these records, but there's just a chance that Croydon might have the films, as Caterham and Godstone are in that area, though Lingfield is a bit further out. I'm not doing anything else tomorrow, so I could go and find out.

Can we have horseradish?

Thomasin

[perisama]

this is looking interesting.... playing caluki (how do you spell that?) Back in the morrow Night night x

[perisama]

On my records there is confusion with mary edgar and a fictitious mary moore, which I will now ignore.
Now bear with me a moment, this is muddly.

George was born 1764 and married at the age of 23 Mary Edgar(b 1766and age 21 at marriage)

No offspring noted from this marriage in my tree.....

Then ,.. death, divorce or something like aliens and george re-married , had kiddies

Elizabeth Woolgar b 1774 married (by licence)George in 1812 age 38,

George is now 48/ and they had happy times and bore offspring |jumphappy

Tried to add attachment of old scripts of family with dates of elizabeth and mary etc but it is too big . If anyone is interested I can send it via pm

Total respect to you all forever|bowdown|

[perisama]

Thomasin... I have it , ( and horse radish)..... Mary Moore on my old stuff from the ramblings of clearly an old senile woman is a red herring that I hooked by mistake and it was Mary Edgar after all !!!!!!!!!!! You can have twenty Yorkshire Puddings XXX
I have among my ancient papers the bits that can be read from Lingfield old church paves, and something about a weatern end .... again, I can e-mail attachment to you if you wish . I can't read half of it and that is clearly what I need to decifer to get to Mary Edgar's past... It is all there somewhere. Right under my nose the whole time and I have been dismissing it!!!!!!!

[Kerrywood]

George was born 1764 and married at the age of 23 Mary Edgar(b 1766and age 21 at marriage)

No offspring noted from this marriage in my tree.....

Then ,.. death, divorce or something like aliens and george re-married , had kiddies

Elizabeth Woolgar b 1774 married (by licence)George in 1812 age 38,

George is now 48/ and they had happy times and bore offspring

I said above that the dates I found in the marriage index don't support what you have, but in fact they do. I realised that after posting, but the new protocol had whipped the Edit button away before I could change it :)

Kerrywood

[perisama]

Thanks kerrywood, I am so pleased you have all helped n this , culdn't have done it without you. Now all we need to do is delve further back.

[esdel]

Hello Perisama

I am a Caterham Grandad with nothing to do unless my wonderful full-of-life grandson is available (most Saturdays)
So anything about Caterham I could find for you.
All the Caterham stuff used to be at Godstone.

(Pity Bournemouth is so far away as my culinary skill ceases at boiled egg and baked potato!)
Best wishes
Esdel

[perisama]

Hello esdel, I think I may have everything I need now about my Caterham folk, I don't know what happened to his daughters, Mary and Sarah Ann Elizabeth... they may have married... I don't know. George's father (William) came from Oxfordshire, but HIS father, James worked as a shoemaker in Oxfordshire buit I don't know where he was born.
That really exhausts Caterham for me,I found some good information about Caterham and the school from the Local History Booklets.
There IS one thing you could do if you fancy a nice stroll..... George and Elizabeth were buried at ST Lawrence's Church. 1850. I have been in contact and the Verger says that East Surrey FHS would have the Precise location of the grave. I have tried them but to no avail. I wondered if you would have more luck? I'm sure a nice 160 year old headstone can't be that hard to spot!!!!!!!! And your Grandson would love it!!!!. |jumphappy
Seriously though,it would be nice but don't worry if it is too difficult for you. :)
And I love dippy eggs!! I don't have eggs at home cos of hubby's diet, cholesterol and all that!

[esdel]

WOW and I thought milk and eggs were good for you!
How fashions change. They really don't know anything at all do they.
Even the govt in its incompetent lethargy used to give ALL childrem 1/3 pint of milk a day!

St Lawrences will be a nice stroll for me! The burial ground is large and still in use and there is an "Old St Lawrences" the other side of the road - used until they got big ideas.
So any clue for grave location would help me a bit.
By the way that verger is wrong. The people who run the graveyard are at Oxted and easy to find on Google (Tandridge District Council)

If you would like the lowdown on the school, I was prisoner there for ten years.
Best wishes
Esdel

[esdel]

Sorry Perisama, I got it wrong.
St Mary's is the bigger-and-better Victorian church and St Lawrence's has a far smaller graveyard - which the council will not care about as it is not active.
Will nip up as soon as the sun shines
Esdel

[perisama]

Good Morning esdel... You mention something called "sun" ... what is this? it must be a wondrous eastern thing that we do not have here!! Yes I believe it was St Mary's. I just hope it is still legible. The old caterham school.. according to a local history booklet it was located on the opposite side of Chaldon Road from the present Hill School. What is in it's place? are there any photos? I only have a copy of a drawing by a chap called John Hassell.


Also this......
This document,to be found in Volume V of St. Lawrence's Parish Register, tells the story of the foundation of Caterham's first school:

To all whom these concern.

I, Thomas Clarke of Upper Bellgrave Square in the Parish of St. George Hanover Square in the County of Middlesex, owner of the Manor of Caterhamin the County of Surrey, having lately inclosed a piece of land containing a little more than an acre on Caterham Common at the North end of the village of Caterham & having built thereon a House adapted and intended for a School & planted an Orchard & I hereby give to the Parish the said House, Outbuildings, Plantations & whatever appertains thereto, with all my claim, right on or title to the said piece of Common-land either as owner or in right of the Manor for ever, upon the following conditions: that the said House and Premises shall be occupied as a School for the instruction of Children, Rent freeto the School Master with a right to the produce of the Orchard and Garden, but subject to hte free Education of some Children (not less than six in number) of the Parish of Caterham whose Parents cannot afford to pay for their instruction; and that the control, direction, care and management of the same, the choise of the School master, power to displace him, choice of children, with powerto do all things requisite, shall be vested in the Resident Clegyman, the Acting Overseer of the Poor and the Owner of the Manor, for the time being, and in the case both Overseers act, then the elder man only to have a voice in this business, and in the case of no resident Clergyman, the Farmer that occupies the Manor Farm to be Manger in his stead.

And, from an anxious wish that this humble institution may be useful, I particcularly recommend to the Managers, in the choice of a School Master, to select a man that has the command of his Temper, & is a good moral character.

Thinking it properthat all who have an interest or property in caterham Common should join with me in giving up their interest and claims in the before mentioned piece of land, they will give me pleasure so by subscribing to this with me.

(Signed) Thomas Clarke

John Hitchins

Wm. Bull

John Searle

James Legrew

...We learn something of the history of the school from it's Minute Book now deposited at the County Record Office (C>R>O> LA/2/4).

On December 24 1805, John Brooke was chosen School Master. Brooke had made his first appearance in Caterham history some twenty years earlier when, as parish Clark, he made a copper-plate entry in the Rate Book 1786: " I gave publick notice in the Parish Church of Catterham aforsaid immediately after Divine Service in the presence of the Congregation. . . " and so forth, signing himself "Jno Brooke Clerk". He must have been 65 years of age when he was appointed Schoolmaster and continued in his duties till his death at the age of 81 in 1821.

One wonders what effect this increasingly patriarchal figure, a survival - if we can judge by the style and handwriting of his Rate Book entries-from the eighteenth century, on his young charges. We know the names of the forst six pupils: Richard and George Brooke, surely descendants, Rachel Rowed, George Elief (Ayliff), James Norris and Harriet Smith. Apart from Rachel who was 10, they were all, judging by the Baptismal Registers age 5 or 6. The Minute Book is somewhat taciturn about the management of the school. John Brooke's service of 16 years was terminated by death; and he was to be succeeded by George Pratt who continued in office till his death twenty - nine years later. The minute book ends abruptly with the appointment of William Brough on August 20 1850. . . (George Pratt died in May and Brough was appointed in August. From the census of 1851 it give George Pratt Jr as School Master. He must have fillied the position for the three months following his father's death and the perhaps stated an independant school of his own or was employed by Brough to work with him at the School) ... But the scool continued. From the Post Office Guide of 1865, we read: " here is a village school for boys and girls, supported by subscription . . . Parochial School, William Brough, master". From a tablet in St. Mary's Church, we learn that Brough ws Parish Clerk for 62 years,surviving till 1913 and the age of 89.

Here my records end, but it is pleasant to know that the children of Caterham Hill Primary School are still recieving instruction near the spot where some 165 years ago, Thomas Clarke founded the first School in Caterham.

James Batley


Good Luck in your quest and thank you.

[esdel]

Very nteresting, Perisama
There are two places. Caterham (valley) and Caterham on the Hill - more ancient and formerly the home of the hospital St Lawrence's for London "mentally challenged" folk.
Caterham people who went crazy were of course sent elsewhere.

I never knew there was ANOTHER school opposite the Hill School (on the road to Chaldon - Stanstead Road). Today it is open fields, a council dump and the water reservoir that feeds the valley with 100 pound per square inch water!

My school was the Caterham School in the valley.

Caterham Common is on the hill and is now rugby pitches and adjoins Chaldon Common - a local beauty spot - with ancient Chaldon Chirch with a picture of Hell's Tortures "adorning" its back inner wall.

Manor Park is an open area in the valley where ruins of the manor house are still not entirely effaced. Was until recently a wondrous place to go toboganning in the snow! Then some idiot HSE do gooder from Tandridge Council fenced off the toboggan track as a "wildlife conservation area" thus destroying childlife enjoyment there.

I never heard of Thomas Clarke. The famous name round here is Layham. Used to be Layham's Garage here and still is a Layham's Farm at Warlingham/Woldingham.

So your rellies. Are they at St Mary's (big) or St Lawrences (little)?
What EXACTLY would you like to know IF I can find the headstones? Sorry, but I have no camera.
And you are right - rain again today!
Best wishes
Esdel

[esdel]

A stroll around St Mary and St Lawrence :-
From what I could read on actual headstones, burials up to 1868 were at St Lawrences and after 1880 at St Mary
So if your 1850 is right they are 90% probably at St Lawrences.
There about 1/3 of the headstones are legible and there are about 30 all told.
St Lawrence is still active for cremation plaques, but where they got the space for that from beats me - unless by "tidying away" gravestones.
And 30 people since the year 1080 is hardly enough.

So if you could tell me where to look....... but I expect that is what you were hoping I would tell you!
Never mind, the walk cheered me up.
Esdel

[perisama]

As far as I know it is at St Lawrence's. I don't know what I hope to find really... Something new? I just have it in my tiny mind that I know they are there... I have found the right church yard and so I think it is a sign. ??? Dunno really. Maybe it is a family plot and then I know if their kids stayed in caterham and died there or if they moved away. George and Elizabeth Pratt's children's names were Mary, Sarah Ann (who died aged 1) , William, Sarah Ann Elizabeth, George and James. Good luck and thanks.