TURNER, CUBITT - a murder mystery

[richard horner]

This new thread has been split from one originally created by Patmac, with the title 'Norfolk Name Interests' on 6 Jan 2005. This new thread was created as it diverging from the original posting.
Geoffers
Moderator, Norfolk boards.


Pat

I would be grateful to know if your CUBITT connections are from WITTON. I am trying to solve a mystery on the Norfolk Transcriptions which show a CUBITT murdered by a John Rudd TURNER in 1831. The mystery is that the said JRT married an Eleanor BROWNE 8 years later. Can you help at all

Regards
Richard

[Geoffers]

I would be grateful to know if your CUBITT connections are from WITTON. I am trying to solve a mystery on the Norfolk Transcriptions which show a CUBITT murdered by a John Rudd TURNER in 1831. The mystery is that the said JRT married an Eleanor BROWNE 8 years later. Can you help at all
Richard
I've corresponded with someone about this in the past (it may well have been yourself).

The 1831 marriage at East Ruston was between Rudd TURNER, *WIDOWER* otp, and Hannah CUBITT, sw, otp. both signed their names. Note that in the register entry the section 'with consent of' (used for marriage of minors) is crossed out

The groom signed his name Rudd Turner. The initial 'R' in his forename and the first 'r' in his surname are quite distinctive.

The 1840 marriage at East Ruston was between John Rudd TURNER, *SINGLEMAN", otp and Hannah CUBITT, sw, otp. John Rudd Turner is recorded as a miller, son of Rudd Turner, miller.

John Rudd Turner signed his name J R Turner. The initial 'R' of his second name and the first 'r' in Turner are different from the signature in Rudd Turner. The signatures as a whole look to be slightly different styles of writing.

The burials of the murder victims took place in a different parish, Worstead. There the entries refer to the burial of "Hannah wife of John Rudd Turner, aged 22, of Witton, and William Turner, 9mth, son of the same. In the margin there is a note reading, "both murdered by the husband and father John Rudd Turner."

East Ruston registers records the burial of Rudd Turner there on 30th April 1832.

John Rudd Turner was baptized at the end of 1812, in 1831 he would have been a minor.

So, the signatures J R Turner and Rudd Turner are different. h CUBITT, sw, otp. John Rudd Turner is recorded as a miller, son of Rudd Turner, miller.

John Rudd Turner signed his name J R Turner. The initial 'R' of his second name and the first 'r' in Turner are different from the signature in Rudd Turner. The signatures as a whole look to be slightly different styles of writing.

The burials of the murder victims took place in a different parish, Worstead. There the entries refer to the burial of "Hannah wife of John Rudd Turner, aged 22, of Witton, and William Turner, 9mth, son of the same. In the margin there is a note reading, "both murdered by the husband and father John Rudd Turner."

East Ruston registers records the burial of Rudd Turner there on 30th April 1832.

John Rudd Turner was baptized at the end of 1812, in 1831 he would have been a minor.

So, the signatures J R Turner and Rudd Turner are different. The section in the first marriage to record the father's name granting consent has been crossed out, yet J R Turner was still a minor. the first marriage records the groom as a widower, yet by marriage two the groom is a singleman.

I think the story has been altered in the telling between parishes. By the time the tale reached Worstead, Rudd Turner has been wrongly recorded as John Rudd Turner. Remove this simple error and things fall into place.


Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[richard horner]

Geoffers

Yes it was indeed myself who asked this question some time ago, unfortunately I didn't receive the reply probably because of either my old firewall or a gremlin in my laptop.
Thank you for the answer, obviously the mystery is who was this supposed JRT? The only other drawback to this discovery is that their is now no skeleton in the fmily (history) cupboard.
Once again very many thanks

regards
Richard

[Geoffers]

[Yes it was indeed myself who asked this question some time ago, unfortunately I didn't receive the reply probably because of either my old firewall or a gremlin in my laptop.
Sorry about that, I can remember typing out a long response - computers are fine when they work; but not so good when the system breaks down.

[Thank you for the answer, obviously the mystery is who was this supposed JRT]

Shame it wasn't just JR, which would have made for a nice message thread - who did JR shoot?? :-))

To me JRT would be the son of RT, both millers - just the message of who dunnit has been confused in the telling - in view of your job and my old job, something we've both come across more than once!

Good luck
Geoffers

[PatMac]

Sorry, haven't a clue as to this murder mystery! Quite interesting stuff, though. Will keep an eye out for a possible Hannah Cubitt fromthe right time frame, even though she was the victim!

[G.V.Ford]

Pat

I would be grateful to know if your CUBITT connections are from WITTON. I am trying to solve a mystery on the Norfolk Transcriptions which show a CUBITT murdered by a John Rudd TURNER in 1831. The mystery is that the said JRT married an Eleanor BROWNE 8 years later. Can you help at all

Regards
Richard

Richard,
Have just seen your messages from last year. Do you still want details on above murders, ie newspaper reports?
Also I see you are interested in Norfolk Horners, Riches & Turners, so am I if Turners are from East Ruston & Horners from Blofield (James Horner/Mary Ann Riches).

Regards
Geoff Ford

[richard horner]

Geoff

Have just returned from Norwich and missed your message.

Have the three cuttingd from the Norfolk Chronicle which tells of this bloody murder. And from all the details that I have of the family I can now reveal as you seem to know that they got it wrong!!!!!

The murderer was Mr RUDD TURNER and not his son JRT they couldn't even get the babies name right as I have the transscription which shows the sons name was William and not George.

In answer to your query concerning HORNER/RICHES yes I am looking into that side of the family as well. James is my GGGfather abd after solving the above the only thing I have still not been able to find is the birth of my GGfather James Francis.


Regards
Richard

[G.V.Ford]

Richard,

Re the murders of Hannah (Cubitt) & son George : You have 3 cuttings from the Norfolk Chronicle, I have 3 cuttings from the Norwich Mercury, probably very much the same but the Mercury refers throughout to the child as George. The Mercury reports finish with the jury returning a verdict that Rudd Turner was insane and that "the prisoner was removed amidst loud murmurs." Do you know what happened to him then? presumable he was put into an asylum, but what was the cause of death later that month? One aspect I don't understand is that the newspapers report Hannah as being about 22 years and "geoffers" says Worstead parish records her age as 22, but according to a Cubitt family tree in a book at the Society of Genealogists she was born in 1794 (dau of Robert Cubitt & Hannah) and this date is in line with her siblings - if that tree is right.

On general Horner matters, you appear to be my wife's second cousin. Her GFather was Frank Horner who took ove was the cause of death later that month? One aspect I don't understand is that the newspapers report Hannah as being about 22 years and "geoffers" says Worstead parish records her age as 22, but according to a Cubitt family tree in a book at the Society of Genealogists she was born in 1794 (dau of Robert Cubitt & Hannah) and this date is in line with her siblings - if that tree is right.

On general Horner matters, you appear to be my wife's second cousin. Her GFather was Frank Horner who took over the watchmaker shop from his father James Francis; I presume your GFather was Horace James (or poss. Robert or George - I don't know if they had children). We don't have James Francis' birth either, other than 1839/40 in Norwich according to census.

We also don't have details of the marriage of James Horner & Mary Ann Riches; can you help?
By the way, we have John Rudd Turner's will. Would you like a transcript?
Would you also like details of Frank Horner's family?
%0r the watchmaker shop from his father James Francis; I presume your GFather was Horace James (or poss. Robert or George - I don't know if they had children). We don't have James Francis' birth either, other than 1839/40 in Norwich according to census.

We also don't have details of the marriage of James Horner & Mary Ann Riches; can you help?
By the way, we have John Rudd Turner's will. Would you like a transcript?
Would you also like details of Frank Horner's family?

Regards
Geoff

[Geoffers]

One aspect I don't understand is that the newspapers report Hannah as being about 22 years and "geoffers" says Worstead parish records her age as 22, but according to a Cubitt family tree in a book at the Society of Genealogists she was born in 1794 (dau of Robert Cubitt & Hannah) and this date is in line with her siblings - if that tree is right.
I've double-checked the register and can confirm that Hannah is recorded as being aged 22.

Hannah married Rudd Turner at East Ruston in 1831 and I think that the person who researched the Cubitt history you found in the SoG has made a basic error by just looking back at East Ruston registers for her baptism.

He/she has found the baptism there in 1794 of Hannah daughter of Robert + Hannah (late Long) and probably assumed that it relates to the marriage in 1831. Granted that marriages usually occurred in the bride's home parish - but this was not a fixed rule and on this occasion it appears to have taken place in the groom's parish (he was bapt there in 1812) where Rudd Turner was established as a miller.

I'd have to wonder why if Hannah was born and married in East Ruston, she was buried at Worstead? I think it is important and it is most likely because she was born there. Worstead registers record two Hannah Cubitts being baptised around the correct time

In 1807 there was Hannah Cubitt daughter of James + Mary (late Long) - but she was buried aged 21 days so that rules her out.

In 1809 though, Worstead register records "Hannah illegitimate daughter of Mary CUBITT was born May 8th and baptised May 1(4?)th 1809."
This would seem the most likely baptism to me.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[richard horner]

Geoff (To both or this is going to get confusing)

The first report (6/8/1831) reports in florid terms the double murder. The second dated (31/3/1832) is the arraignment where RT is found to be insane through a visitation of god the third (dated 28/4/1832) refers to the Coroners Inquest at the Asylum which records that RT had been a model inmate and had complained of pains in his head and had requested that he remain in bed which had been agreed. That night he appeared to be improved but the next morning was found dead in his bed and a verdict of death by natural causes was recorded.
The marriage shows that th etwo witnesses were Robert and Mary Ann Cubitt and was performed on 24 May 1830 at East Ruston. I ahve a copy of the parish Register for Worstead (Page 24 Nos 187 and 188) which staes that Hannah wife of JRT was buried with her son WILLIAM on 5 Aug 1831 . The record on the side states "Both murdered by the Husband and Father John Rudd Turner". At the time of the murder JRT would have been 18 and probably learning his trade as a Journeyman Miller. Why he never queried the matter one can only surmise was because he couldn't read? I would certainly like to see a copy of the Will.
In respect of the Horner family I am the grandson of Horace James and my father was Harold Leonard. If you like I will send you a copy of JH and MAR marriage certificate which I found by querying why Edward Riches would visit a person that I could find no connection with in London from Norfolk. I then thought of me being in his shoes why would I go that distance and in view of the fact that the family would be increasing in 1872 I suddenly thought " I would visit my grandson and daughter if they told me that" I therefore looked for a Riches marriage and found that the printer had got the Horner name wrong. i would certainly like deatils of your family and now to leave with another problem what happened to that wonderful person Mary Robertson Horner who has appeared every time I have had a problem and solved it by being the connecting piece in the jigsaw.

To geoffers if we tend to be taking this over do you want us to go direct or start a seperate thread.
regards
Richard

<FONT color=red>What I'll do is split the thread&nbspnly like to see a copy of the Will.
In respect of the Horner family I am the grandson of Horace James and my father was Harold Leonard. If you like I will send you a copy of JH and MAR marriage certificate which I found by querying why Edward Riches would visit a person that I could find no connection with in London from Norfolk. I then thought of me being in his shoes why would I go that distance and in view of the fact that the family would be increasing in 1872 I suddenly thought " I would visit my grandson and daughter if they told me that" I therefore looked for a Riches marriage and found that the printer had got the Horner name wrong. i would certainly like deatils of your family and now to leave with another problem what happened to that wonderful person Mary Robertson Horner who has appeared every time I have had a problem and solved it by being the connecting piece in the jigsaw.

To geoffers if we tend to be taking this over do you want us to go direct or start a seperate thread.
regards
Richard

What I'll do is split the thread and put this into a new thread with a suitable title. Geoffers
Moderator, Norfolk boards.

[Geoffers]

The record on the side states "Both murdered by the Husband and Father John Rudd Turner". At the time of the murder JRT would have been 18 and probably learning his trade as a Journeyman Miller. Why he never queried the matter one can only surmise was because he couldn't read? I would certainly like to see a copy of the Will.
I would guess that as the note was added to Worstead registers and he lived in East Ruston, a couple of miles to the east - he probably never saw the note added by the Vicar. He wouldn't have any reason to view the registers for Worstead. Though if he ever visited the parish, I suppose he might wonder why the Vicar gave him stramge looks.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[G.V.Ford]

Richard

Thanks for your information, and Geoffers thanks for your searches.
I suppose there is not much more to say about the murders. A very sad case, although it certainly spices up a family history. One wonders what drove him to it, maybe it can be explained by the manner of his death, possibly a tumour. Presumably JRT wasn't at home that night for as an 18 year old he could surely have at least saved the baby from being drowned.

Rudd Turner was baptised at Witton as were all his brothers and sisters. How come at age 43 he is a miller which is a position of some standing locally, equivalent to a landed farmer. Did he rent the mill and he or JRT eventually buy it out or was he able to buy it or build it outright - what was his father's position.

The tower mill at East Ruston, now ex sails and fitted out for holidays, was built in 1868 reputedly with cloth sails which apparently would have been the last in the country to have been built as such. It seems to have Witton as were all his brothers and sisters. How come at age 43 he is a miller which is a position of some standing locally, equivalent to a landed farmer. Did he rent the mill and he or JRT eventually buy it out or was he able to buy it or build it outright - what was his father's position.

The tower mill at East Ruston, now ex sails and fitted out for holidays, was built in 1868 reputedly with cloth sails which apparently would have been the last in the country to have been built as such. It seems to have replaced an earlier Post Mill. The substantial house adjacent to it was Turner property, as was the charming little cottage which is a couple of hundred yards further along the lane from the mill.

I have tried attaching JRT's will but, being a word doc, it seems I can't do it; my computer skills are too limited to convert it into an acceptable format. Can you help? It is quite a long document and may be too long to incorporate in a message.

Mary Robertson Horner married George Hutchinson who owreplaced an earlier Post Mill. The substantial house adjacent to it was Turner property, as was the charming little cottage which is a couple of hundred yards further along the lane from the mill.

I have tried attaching JRT's will but, being a word doc, it seems I can't do it; my computer skills are too limited to convert it into an acceptable format. Can you help? It is quite a long document and may be too long to incorporate in a message.

Mary Robertson Horner married George Hutchinson who owned the watchmaker/jewellery shop in Clapham (Wandsworth), and later the house at 16 Fitzwilliam Road, Clapham. (James Francis Horner went to GH in 1853 as an apprentice to learn the trade and eventually inherited the business & properties.) According to old notes in the family, Mary died May 1860. George Hutchinson subsequently remarried. The shop in Clapham is still there, a flower shop last time I saw it.

I would indeed like details of the JH / MAR marriage, please.

I don'tned the watchmaker/jewellery shop in Clapham (Wandsworth), and later the house at 16 Fitzwilliam Road, Clapham. (James Francis Horner went to GH in 1853 as an apprentice to learn the trade and eventually inherited the business & properties.) According to old notes in the family, Mary died May 1860. George Hutchinson subsequently remarried. The shop in Clapham is still there, a flower shop last time I saw it.

I would indeed like details of the JH / MAR marriage, please.

I don't have the Frank Horner family details on anything I can attach at the moment but will type them up; however, it occurs to me that it is quite extensive and all but a few names are still alive & kicking. Rather than post all their details on the web I feel it would be best to send it privately if that is in order. Can this be done through this site otherwise would you email me direct?

Regards
Geoff (Ford)

[Geoffers]

Rudd Turner was baptised at Witton as were all his brothers and sisters. How come at age 43 he is a miller which is a position of some standing locally, equivalent to a landed farmer. Did he rent the mill and he or JRT eventually buy it out or was he able to buy it or build it outright - what was his father's position.
Details of the mill can be found on the excellent Norfolk mills website:
http://www.norfolkmills.co.uk/Windmills/east-ruston-towermill.html

Some idea of the standing of the family in the late 18th century might be found from the Land Tax returns 1798 - the NFHS holds a transcribed and indexed copy. The amount of tax paid may indicate the extent of their holdings and thus is they were lcoal farmers. The tithe redemption returns from the 19th century would show the family's holdings about 30 years later. This and any wills held by the NRO, may indicate whether the family was generally well off over a period of time, or whether their fortunes improved during the 19th century so that they could afford to have the mill at East Ruston built.

Geoffers

[richard horner]

Second Attempt

Geoff

Have tried to contact you direct but the message ahs come back, prehaps you could contact me.

Attached is copy of the MC you asked for.
Regards
richard

[G.V.Ford]

Richard.

Sorry for delay responding.

Regret, I do not have an Attachment Icon for the MC on your last posting.

I have converted my JRT Will transcript into both gif and jpeg format but site tells me both are far too large to post as attachments.

Please try emailing me again on [email protected] and I will send direct to you - and to anybody else out there who may be interested.
(Cannot contact you direct through this site as your options switched off).

Regards
Geoff Ford

[richard horner]

Have now amended options which will hopefully change things. Have sent a message to you using your e-mail.

Richard

[G.V.Ford]

Hello Richard.

Still no joy, your email seems to be lost in the ether somewhere and I’m still being told I cannot contact you direct through the site.

Returning to the murders, a map from the early 1800s shows East Ruston Mill about a kilometre north east from the present mill. As the present mill and presumably the present house were built in 1868, way after the murders, I guess the incident occurred at a house near the old mill. So no ghosts for the current occupiers.

According to the “norfolkmills” web site “J.R. Turner also had the High Mill, which was a postmill that stood on higher ground some 1,150 yards NE of the tower mill at TG36842992”. From a current Ordnance Survey map I think this would put it close to where there is now a water tower marked and where a number of footpaths converge (which would make sense).

I have a pencil sketch of what I think is a post mill (it isn’t the prese occupiers.

According to the “norfolkmills” web site “J.R. Turner also had the High Mill, which was a postmill that stood on higher ground some 1,150 yards NE of the tower mill at TG36842992”. From a current Ordnance Survey map I think this would put it close to where there is now a water tower marked and where a number of footpaths converge (which would make sense).

I have a pencil sketch of what I think is a post mill (it isn’t the present mill), which is marked “East Ruston Mill drawn by J.F. Horner”. No date.

Regards
Geoff Ford

[richard horner]

Geoff

Yes I found the site some time ago, the sketch is very interesting as I have been unable to find JF and family after 1841 census. At that time they were living in Post Office Street and the next time that I find anything is on James' Death Cert where he is shown as having died at 32 Chapel St, Crooks Place St Stephens.

I have found John Turner (Rudd's Father) in the 1817 POLL BOOK and JRT is in the Landowners CD I have, this may solve your mystery about how at sucha young age RT could have been the owner of a MIll. Since this all started I have gone back to LDS and now find that John Turner and Mary are recorded as having 15 children, only a few have the name FIDDY as the mother although National Transcriptions gives TIDDY as the name.

I have always wondered why on JFH and ET marriage cert JRT never signed as a witness leaving it to her brother and Mary Robertson to sign, did they think that she was marrying beneath herself.

Will try the e-mail again we;ve got to get through sometime surely.

Regards
Richard

[G.V.Ford]

Richard,

Likewise, have been unable trace "Norfolk" Horners on census nights. I think they must have been hiding under hedgerows.

Interesting re John Turners/Mary Fiddy’s children, I only have 10 : Charles 1777, John 1778, William 1780, Ann Ester 1781, Sarah 1783, Edmund 1786, Rudd 1788, Thomas 1789, George 1792 & James 1797; who were the others?

Witness at JFH/ET wedding was Mary Robinson Turner, presumably the Mary Ann Robinson Horner who married Thomas Cozens. I wonder if she got her Robinson bit from her gggrandmother – I wouldn’t have thought the surname would have been remembered over those generations.

Regards
Geoff Ford

[richard horner]

Geoff

Hope you got my earlier message with e-mail address.
I have the MC of JFT and ET and it clearly shows Robertson and although her birth is transcribed as Robinson there is a foot note which states that the name is Robertson, now where did that come from.

My 16 are based on LDS (not very safe ) and includes those shown as having John Turner as Father and Mary as Mother. The extra names I have are as follows: Eliz 1785, Robert 25 Feb 1794, Joseph 10 dec 1795, sarah Alice 26 Apr 1801, and last but not least Richard Plumbley 16 Jan 1803.

I have a few earlier wills for the Horners but have never found anything for the Turners despite the fact that as already stated I believe them to be in the money. Could you advise where you got JRT's will.


regards
Richard

[G.V.Ford]

Richard.

Generally we seem to be getting away from the murders per se. However, I found my first reference to it in a Cubitt family tree (now shown to be inaccurate); where did you come across it, or was it still known in your branch of the family?

Re John Rudd Turner's will, that was passed down through the family.

Mary (Ann) Robertson/Robinson Horner is getting confusing. Is the J.F. Horner/ E. Turner MC that you have, a copy of the Parish Register? My GRO copy shows the witnesses as R.G. Turner and Mary Robinson Horner - definitely Robinson, with the i dotted and all. I don't have her BC but her grave stone in the Rosary in Norwich states Mary Ann Robinson Cozens (her married name) died 1939.

I have a photograph of eight of J.F. Horner/ E. Turner's children (one of the older girls not shown). The youngest is a baby (presumably George), therefore the photograph would have been taken in 1887. Would you like a copy or would you ah Register? My GRO copy shows the witnesses as R.G. Turner and Mary Robinson Horner - definitely Robinson, with the i dotted and all. I don't have her BC but her grave stone in the Rosary in Norwich states Mary Ann Robinson Cozens (her married name) died 1939.

I have a photograph of eight of J.F. Horner/ E. Turner's children (one of the older girls not shown). The youngest is a baby (presumably George), therefore the photograph would have been taken in 1887. Would you like a copy or would you already have one? I could (try) email it to you.

Regards
Geoff

[liz b]

I have just registered as a new member and thought it worth making contact as I see from your correspondence with Richard Horner that your wife's Gfather is Frank Horner. My Grandmother, aged 83, is the youngest child of Horace Horner and has memories of Frank Horner (her uncle) dating back to the 1930's. Also speaks of her Grandparents - James and Elizabeth Horner living at 79-81 Clapham High St.
I am just embarking on this, so any information that you already have or tips would be greatly appreciated.
Kind Regards

Liz B

[richard horner]

Liz

Would be very interested to hear from you try doing a personal e-mail through the forum , if that fails then try richard @horner7549339.fsnet.co.uk.
Wait to hear from you.

Richard

[Edward Cooper]

I'd be very interested to know whether anyone has any new information (since the last message on this subject was posted in January 2005) about the Rudd Turner murders, and about Rudd Turner's family, particularly who his first wife (Elizabeth) was, what happened to her, and what happened to their five children, John Rudd Turner (who I believe lived a long and productive life at East Ruston), Sarah Eliza, Sophia, William, and Robert. I believe that my great-great grandfather's sister, Elizabeth Gilham (or Gillam) of Trimingham, may have married one of Rudd Turner's brothers, John Turner, in 1808, so there could be a family connection.

Thanks!

Edward Cooper
Buffalo, NY, USA