L L Christmas, photographer.

[pipsqueak]

I am trying to identify a photograph of a woman in mourning and would like to know if anyone knows the dates of operation of the photographer, L L Christmas. I think the photo dates to the late 1880s or early 1890s. (Sorry it looks as if someone tried to cut her throat – it wasn't me!)

Any opinions on the photograph or information about the photographer gratefully accepted.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm184/squeakpip/AWhiteorSutton.jpg

[Mutley]

I cannot really help, except to say that L.L. Christmas did not seem to be operating in the London area in 1902.

[Astoria]

Gosh she looks fierce, could the furniture in the background help with the date.

[Marie C..]

Lea Latymer Christams . Stoke Newington about 1901. See the photographic site link that Brian has put up. M

[pipsqueak]

Ah! thankyou! It says that LL Christmas was in that studio from 1897 to 1912. I think that even for an older lady her clothes would be old-fashioned after about 1905 so she might have been photographed in the late 1890s. I was only ten years out! |oopsredfa|

Astoria - I thought she looked fierce but then I looked at her eyes - she looks very sad, I think.

[don.]

although the hairstyle is somewhat severe for the period and was not worn in the then fashion of the day, this being the Pompadour style for this period, the sleeving does fit in with the period of 1893 to 1897. Known as the leg of mutton sleeve, or Gigot sleeve, it replaced the kick ups of the 1889 to 1893 period and although it started off life as a small "puff" of material on the upper arm it "grew" to become larger than you see in the photograph. The height of this fashion was in 1895 and after this date it was in the decline to be replaced by a much tighter sleeving finally disappearing in 1897.

I would not pay too much attention to the furniture in the background as it is a painted backdrop that the sitter is posed in front of.

don

[pipsqueak]

Thanks Don; it's good to have input from someone who knows the fashion. That also ties in with the photographer's dates.

Any guesses as to the age of the woman?

[Wirral]

Is it actually a mourning dress? The material appears to have rather a nice patten in the weave. Is it in black, or is that the effect of the sepia print? Could it be another dark colour?

[Marie C..]

She looks about 50 but then they mostly looked older than their age.
I think the dress must be black but looks different with the photographers light on it. Looks as if it has jet beading on fron and sleeves. They were fond of jet in the Victorian era. M

[Peter_uk_can]

Mourning in Victorian times was an elaborate series of stages.

A "google" of "mourning" brings up so much information that actual mourning may precede me reading it all.

But another lesson in the course of being learnt, I will review my own family photos in a different light now, especially a family group that may have come together at a funeral... amazing what new knowledge surfaces when it is least expected.

[Jan1954]

My great grandfather died in 1923.

I have a photograph of my great grandmother taken 6 years later at the age of 74 (she looks 130...) and she is still wearing a long black bombazine frock, complete with jet necklace.

So, although mourning was taken pretty seriously in Victorian times and bombazine had started to lose popularity by the beginning of the 20th century, the old standards were still very much around in places.

[Astoria]

http://i35.tinypic.com/2yooiu0.jpg

She is my G Grandmother, when might it have been taken?

She is the wife of my avatar, cheeky little smile, don't you think?

[Marie C..]

She's lovely.... looks very intelligent too.
About 1920 perhaps?

[Astoria]

Thanks Carol I think she is lovely too. She died in 1931 in her 60's. So if this was taken in the twenties, I envy her, no wrinkles that I can see. Yes she was the brains of the family I think.

[Hugh Thompson]

Hi Pipsqueak,I just cleaned up your photo a bit and uploaded it but don't know where it's gone.
Hugh.:confused:Thanks Bo Peep that worked!!!
http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo154/hughpics2008/AWhiteorSuttoncopy.jpg

[busyglen]

Wow Hugh! What a difference. You did a good job and worked a miracle. :)

Glenys

[Hugh Thompson]

Thanks Glenys,I didn't know where the buttons went at the top of her dress so I guessed that they went all the way to her shoulders,could have done a better job if I had more time.
Hugh.:)

[Hugh Thompson]

This is from Photo London

Christmas, Lea Latimer
Born 1871. Died 1941.

Biography
Christmas, Lea Latimer
Born in Brackley, Northamptonshire 1871.
2 brothers & 1 sister.
Md.
1 son & 1 daughter.
STUDIO: 104 Stoke Newington Road, Stoke Newington 1897 - 1912. Aka Alexandra Studios (opposite Alexandra Theatre). Succeeded by W J Luck & Co
1881: photographer living at 99 Chrisp Street, Bromley - by - Bow. (The Albion).
1891: photographer living as above.
1901: photographer living at 104 Stoke Newington Road, Stoke Newington.
Died in Billericay 1941.

[pipsqueak]

Hugh that's amazing! Did you use photoshop? I don't have the software to do that kind of editing - getting rid of that gash makes her look a lot less fierce, don't you think? The info about the photographer narrows it down to 1897-1912. That's something anyway.

Thank you so much! I think, if you don't mind, I'll use your edited version on my webpage about her.

Thanks again all for the input. I've narrowed it down to a couple of possible people, but I can't find deaths for some of them - I've put the info on my Great-Auntie webpage (http://web.me.com/janibach/iWeb/Roberts-Sutton/A%20Great-Auntie.html).

[Hugh Thompson]

Hi Pipsqueak,glad to be of help.Hugh.:D

[Hugh Thompson]

Sorry Pipsqueak,and yes I do use PhotoShop,but Gimp is very good and it's free.:D
Hugh.:)

[pipsqueak]

I think I want Photoshop for Christmas!

:)

[Lenore]

[quote=Marie C..;209171]I think the dress must be black but looks different with the photographers light on it./quote]

In this period the only lighting used was daylight. You wouldn't expect a black dress to be reflecting anything, so I think the colour of the dress might be a dark green, maroon, blue, brown, etc.

[Penny Gallo]

I have an excellent book called "The Victorians - Photographic Portraits" by Audrey Linkman ISBN 1-85043-738-6. "...Some colours in the blue spectrum like pale blues, lilacs and lavendars came out white in the finished print, whilst colours in the yellow range such as yellow itself, orange, green and reds tended to translate as black. " Older women would have been likely to dress in sombre colours, but actually seeing clothing of the period and reading fashion advice of the times gives a wider picture.

A bound issue of 1896-1897 "Forget-Me-Not" includes the following colours for readymade ladies' costume: Black, Navy, Grenat, Brown, Tan, Fawn, Myrtle Green, Peacock Green, and Grey (10s 6d, carriage 9d extra). John Noble were selling costumes in Black, Brown, Navy, Bronze, Petunia, Ruby, Cinnamon, Myrtle, Fawn, Grey. Hats were in cornflower-blue, maize, bright red, green, violet and crimson. Green or heliotrope sequins could liven these up, topping the whole affair off with a puffed crown of cream satin and black ostrich feathers. Sepia photos just can't do these justice!

[Aislin]

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/ayslin1/AWhiteorSutton.jpg

Its not a perfect fix, but I couldn't resist.

[pipsqueak]

It's infinitely better than I could do - I just don't have the software :(

[pipsqueak]

I have an excellent book called "The Victorians - Photographic Portraits" by Audrey Linkman ISBN 1-85043-738-6. "...Some colours in the blue spectrum like pale blues, lilacs and lavendars came out white in the finished print, whilst colours in the yellow range such as yellow itself, orange, green and reds tended to translate as black. " Older women would have been likely to dress in sombre colours, but actually seeing clothing of the period and reading fashion advice of the times gives a wider picture.

A bound issue of 1896-1897 "Forget-Me-Not" includes the following colours for readymade ladies' costume: Black, Navy, Grenat, Brown, Tan, Fawn, Myrtle Green, Peacock Green, and Grey (10s 6d, carriage 9d extra). John Noble were selling costumes in Black, Brown, Navy, Bronze, Petunia, Ruby, Cinnamon, Myrtle, Fawn, Grey. Hats were in cornflower-blue, maize, bright red, green, violet and crimson. Green or heliotrope sequins could liven these up, topping the whole affair off with a puffed crown of cream satin and black ostrich feathers. Sepia photos just can't do these justice!

That was interesting, Penny; seeing the dark colour coupled with the sombre expression makes one immediately think of mourning. It's a pity they didn't loosen up a bit! I do have one photo of my great-grandmother's youngest sister as a young woman in the early 1900s where she's clearly in the middle of a giggling fit and trying desperately to keep a straight face!