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Jan65
18-10-2008, 12:37 PM
My 5xg grandfather, George Heslop, was a Schoolmaster, and after my long investigations I believe that in the 1820s he may have been head of a school near the village of Newsham, North Yorkshire, called Earby Hall.

(George died in 1841, just a couple of weeks before the census. He had been succeeded, I believe, by a Ralph Simpson who appears in the census at the school with his family and the pupils, so presumably it was a boarding school.)

On the Newsham Village website this school is described as being a "London School".

My query, therefore, is what was a "London School"?

An interesting co-incidence is that I believe George may have married in London, and his wife may have had two of their children in London, so I was wondering whether George may have trained in London (I know that being formally trained wasn't common in this time period) possibly in Cambridge or Oxford (?) If this was the case, are there any records of people who were awarded degrees at this time?

Any help whatsoever very gratefully received - George fascinates me as a lot of my ancestors were poor and illiterate, so he sort of stands out!

Janice

arthurk
18-10-2008, 7:37 PM
An interesting question - I can't help you much, I'm afraid, other than to confirm that Baines' Directory of 1822-23 lists as schoolmasters in Newsham:

Heslop George (academy)
Simpson Ralph

I couldn't see George in either the Oxford or Cambridge Alumni lists, but from what you say, he might have been at London University - UCL was founded in 1826, King's College in 1828-9. I don't know whether their records have been published, and if so, where they can be found, but someone else might.

Arthur

Edit: put "Earby Hall" and school in a search engine and see what you get - I found an interesting article from the Earby Chronicles (actually a different Earby) which gave some of the history of the school - apparently it might have been the model for Dickens' Dotheboys Hall...

Jan65
18-10-2008, 8:48 PM
Arthur, thank you for your response and suggestions. I have already seen the reference to George and Ralph in Baines 1823 (George's son - another George - is also there, he's a butcher).

And I'd also seen the link about the school maybe being a model for Dotheboys Hall which was fascinating and also mentioned Ralph Simpson if I remember correctly.

Thank you very much for looking for George in the Oxford and Cambridge Alumni lists, that's much appreciated. What a shame he's not there.

Forgive my ignorance - does UCL stand for University College London or something like that? George was born in 1760 so I don't think he can have been there if it wasn't founded until 1826.

I am trying to put George in London for the 1780s because I've not been able to find a definite marriage for George to his wife Deborah Ann in any place near to Newsham or the surrounding Kirkby Ravensworth area where they lived out most of their lives, but there is a possibility in St Mary, Marylebone, London, on 5 November 1782, to an Ann Turner.

This date would fit perfectly because it's possible that their first child, Mary, was born in London just ten months after this date. Although the marriage is to an Ann, I believe that Deborah Ann may have been known by her middle name Ann, as she is referred to as Ann on her gravestone. (To explain - she's listed for her own death as Deborah Ann, but one of their children is buried with them, and is described as being the child of "the above Ann Heslop".)

Sorry for this long-winded response and I hope it makes sense. Perhaps I'm doing the wrong thing by trying to place George in London in the way that I am, but if he was there taking some sort of formal training for his occupation, perhaps that's how he met Deborah Ann and ended up marrying in London. Or perhaps one day I'll come across a more definite and local marriage for him!

Many thanks again for your help.

Janice

Mutley
18-10-2008, 9:21 PM
This is a complete and total long shot and if I am talking utter rubbish, I apologise now, but...

I seem to remember recently, something about degrees being awarded by the Archbishop of Canterbury. It is a practice that goes back hundreds of years and was something to do with Oxford and Cambridge, at some time, being unable to give degrees, I cannot remember why.

The connection also being Lambeth Palace (London). I cannot, for the life of me think where I saw or heard this.

It is just one of those silly facts that you store at the back of the mind and then forget the important details.

Might be worth wander around google.

drimnagh
19-10-2008, 5:38 AM
Hi all,

Mutley.....I believe that the reference to the Archbishop of Canterbury awarding degrees was on "Who Do You Think You Are".

Joe

benny1982
19-10-2008, 9:57 AM
Hi

This makes very interesting reading as one of my lot was a schoolmistress in 1841.

My ancestor Hannah Woodcock nee Robins was born c1780 and is described as a schoolmistress in Bletchingdon, Oxfordhsire in the 1841 census, not born in county. She died in 1846 so I havent found her birthplace.

She wed Thomas Woodcock in St Mary Magdalen, Oxford in 1800 but I cannot yet find her in an Uni or school records etc. I would like to try and find a birthplace for her as well.

Ben

Mutley
19-10-2008, 11:37 AM
Hi all,

Mutley.....I believe that the reference to the Archbishop of Canterbury awarding degrees was on "Who Do You Think You Are".

Joe

Ah! that probably be it, though I did not see the program, I was told about it and thought,
|idea| "I must remember that..."

Wirral
19-10-2008, 12:10 PM
Are these 2 any connection to your family? From Alumni Oxoniensis:
HESLOP John, s. Thomas, of Leybourne Yorks, cler., Queens Coll., matric. 25 June 1774 age 19.
HESLOP Richard s. George of Kirkby Ravenside, Yorks, pleb., Queen's Coll., matric. 5 June 1783 age 20. University Coll. B.A. 1787, M.A. 1789.

Wirral
19-10-2008, 12:21 PM
She wed Thomas Woodcock in St Mary Magdalen, Oxford in 1800 but I cannot yet find her in an Uni or school records etc.
Women didn't go to university at that time. The first college for women at Oxford wasn't established until 1878. Girton College at Cambridge was a little earlier (1869).

Jan65
19-10-2008, 12:29 PM
Thank you all for your replies, much appreciated.

Mutley and Drimnagh, I will have a google of this suggestion and see what comes up.

Benny1982 - how interesting, because I also have Woodcock ancestors, who are connected through marriage to the Heslops. George's grandson, William Heslop, married a Jane Woodcock in Stockton on Tees in 1834. Jane was from Whitby, North Yorkshire, and her parents were James and Mary, possibly nee Pinkney. Any connection?

Wirral - thank you for finding these two entries for me. I don't recognise John, but think that Richard is definitely connected - I believe he must be my George's brother - both children of George senior. My Richard was born in 1762 and was baptised in Kirkby RavensWORTH. I believe he became a Reverend and I have his will - he died in 1809 - where he left everything he owned to a Matthew Holt, whose connection I've not been able to establish.

Please could you explain the entry to me - my understanding is that he qualified at Queen's College on 5 June 1783 (but I don't understand the abbreviations "pleb" and "matric") and then gained a BA at University College in 1787, followed by an MA in 1789. Is this correct?

Many thanks everyone for your input - does anyone know what was meant by a "London" School? I was hoping it means that the schoolmaster was formally trained in London! No-one seems to know.

Janice

PS - also I'm not sure what the Alumni Oxoniensis is, please would you mind explaining?

benny1982
19-10-2008, 12:41 PM
Hi Janice

Do you know where James Woodcock was born? Mine came from the Bletchingdon areas of Oxfordshire.

Wirral, if women didnt go to uni at the time of 1800, whre do you think she may have been trained as a schoolteacher?

Ben

Jan65
19-10-2008, 1:21 PM
Hi Ben

I'm afraid that I don't know where James Woodcock was born, that's something I'm working on.

I think he married, possibly his second wife, Mary Pinkney, at Sunderland in 1810. They went on to have two children (that I know of) - Jane in 1811 (my ancestor) and Robert in 1821. James seems to have had two other children to a Mary in Whitby, one called Mary Ann in 1805 and another, William Hinds Woodcock in 1807. I don't know if these were illegitimate children with Mary Pinkney, or whether Mary Pinkney was his second wife, his first also being a Mary.

James was a master mariner, and in the 1830s he was a ship's captain. He died in 1843 in Stockton on Tees, where the family had lived since sometime between 1821 and 1828. The age given at his death was 60, which gives a birth year of round about 1783. But where, I don't know. From memory, there is no birth for him in Whitby St Mary, so he could have come from anywhere.

Any thoughts?

Janice

benny1982
19-10-2008, 2:22 PM
Hi Janice

There were quite a few James Woodcocks born in around 1783 time. Did he leave a will? Were there other Woodcocks in the area in 1841 at the time?

Its the same with my Hannah Woodcock nee Robins. She died in 1846 aged 66 so born c1780. She was not from Oxon so she could have been born anywhere as well.

There were a lot of Robins down Gloucester and Warwick way. If I could find her in school records, this may help.

Ben

Wirral
19-10-2008, 2:41 PM
Please could you explain the entry to me - my understanding is that he qualified at Queen's College on 5 June 1783 (but I don't understand the abbreviations "pleb" and "matric") and then gained a BA at University College in 1787, followed by an MA in 1789. Is this correct?

Many thanks everyone for your input - does anyone know what was meant by a "London" School? I was hoping it means that the schoolmaster was formally trained in London! No-one seems to know.

Janice

PS - also I'm not sure what the Alumni Oxoniensis is, please would you mind explaining?
Alumni Oxoniensis is the title of the book - it lists the Members of Oxford University.
Matric. is short for matriculated - ie became a member of the university.
Pleb. is short for plebian - "of the common people", ie not of the nobility.
I think that "London" school means that it was not a school for local children for all & sundry. From Google, it appears to have been a school for young gentlemen.

Jan65
19-10-2008, 2:49 PM
Hi Janice

There were quite a few James Woodcocks born in around 1783 time. Did he leave a will? Were there other Woodcocks in the area in 1841 at the time?

Its the same with my Hannah Woodcock nee Robins. She died in 1846 aged 66 so born c1780. She was not from Oxon so she could have been born anywhere as well.

There were a lot of Robins down Gloucester and Warwick way. If I could find her in school records, this may help.

Ben

Hi Ben

Haven't been able to find a will for James, although have only looked at indexes online, I haven't dug any further.

There were no other Woodcocks in the Stockton area in 1841 at the time unfortunately. There is a Woodcock family at Whitby that I think are probably related (confusingly also a James and Mary! but that James was a Cabinet Maker). At least one of the children of this family - a William if I remember correctly - moved further north and settled at Guisborough.

I seem to have reached a brick wall with James but I'm sure something will turn up eventually!

Janice

Jan65
19-10-2008, 2:59 PM
Alumni Oxoniensis is the title of the book - it lists the Members of Oxford University.
Matric. is short for matriculated - ie became a member of the university.
Pleb. is short for plebian - "of the common people", ie not of the nobility.
I think that "London" school means that it was not a school for local children for all & sundry. From Google, it appears to have been a school for young gentlemen.
Wirral - thank you for the explanation of the abbreviations, all makes sense now. I had googled "London School" and not really found anything but I think you're probably correct in what you say. Earby Hall does seem to be a boarding school which would suggest to me that it was a higher class establishment rather than a provision for local children. I've been trying to trace some of the children's families to see what occupations their fathers had, with no success so far unfortunately. I'll keep chipping away.

If only George himself had appeared in that Alumni list, that would have been the icing on the cake. I wonder if he went to Cambridge rather than Oxford. I've googled and it looks like there is a similar book for Cambridge on CD that I may purchase, funds allowing.

Thanks so much for all your help, I do feel as though I'm getting somewhere now, slowly!

Janice

Wirral
19-10-2008, 3:31 PM
I would ask if there is anyone who could do a lookup of the baptism registers for the 2 children who were born in London. The original registers often list the occupation of the father & sometimes the address at the time of baptism.

The John HESLOP that I found at Oxford later went to Sidney College, Cambridge where he got a BA, then an MA. He went on to become a deacon & then Vicar of Pampisford, Cambs.

Jan65
19-10-2008, 3:59 PM
Hi Wirral

Luckily, I do have copies of these baptisms already from microfilm - a very distant Heslop relative that I have been in contact with kindly looked them up for me at his local Family Records Centre.

On the baptism of the first child, Mary, who was baptised in London in 1783, the image is obscured by something - mould? damp? - and the only words that can be read are "Mary, D of George and Deborah Ann Heslop .." The following word is probably George's occupation, going by the rest of the entries on the page, and possibly begins with the letter M, but it's impossible to read any further.

Their second child, Ann (my ancestor) was born at Dalton, Kirkby Ravensworth, N Yorks, in December 1784, but the next child, Jane, was another London one, baptised in October 1786. On that baptism, the only information written is "Jane Heslop D of George and Deborah Ann" .

The rest of their children were baptised at Kirkby Ravensworth. I don't know for sure if the London ones are theirs, especially with not being able to confirm George's occupation on the first one, but with the mother being a Deborah Ann, which I think is slightly unusual, I am assuming for the moment that they are. But is it likely that they would have two children baptised in London whilst another one that is sandwiched in between is in North Yorkshire?

Any thoughts on this, from anyone, would be most welcome.

Janice

arthurk
19-10-2008, 7:14 PM
Just a bit of a catch-up...

Yesterday I mentioned UCL - I don't think anyone has confirmed yet that this is University College, London.

"Pleb" - in an Oxford context, I think this might mean Commoner, though I haven't been able to confirm this. These days, undergraduates are classified as Scholars (the most able/promising, who receive a small cash award), Exhibitioners (next rung down), and Commoners. I suspect the same titles may have been used for centuries, though I don't know if they will always have been applied in the same way. (Personally I wouldn't worry too much about the slight difference in the place name in the Alumni volume - I've often noticed minor mistakes like that.)

I checked the Cambridge Alumni for George Heslop, but didn't find him (see message #2).

Finally, you asked about a baptism in London 1783. If you were able to post a copy here, there are some clever folk who might be able to decipher it. I would normally suggest trying to get a copy of the Bishop's Transcript in case that is clearer, but I gather very few survive for London at that date. If you can tell us which parish the baptism was in, someone should be able to tell you if there are any BTs.

Arthur

Jan65
19-10-2008, 7:20 PM
Thank you Arthur for your information and for checking the Cambridge Alumni for George, saving me some cash there! If only he'd been there ...

I would love to post the baptism record but don't know how to do it! To be honest, it's not really a question of deciphering it, rather that the words are completely obliterated by the mould/damp. However, I would still post it if someone could tell me how, just in case.

I'd love to know about the Bishop's Transcripts. The baptism was in September 1783, in St Olave, Southwark, Surrey.

Fingers crossed!

Janice

Jan1954
19-10-2008, 7:22 PM
I would love to post the baptism record but don't know how to do it!
Have a look at post #1 here (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30819). :)

Jan65
19-10-2008, 7:49 PM
Thank you jan1954, here goes:

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr216/Janice1965/NewImage.jpg

Has it worked?

Edit - yes it has! Thanks again!

As you can see, the line says "Mary D of George and Deborah Ann Heslop ..." Then comes a short word, probably George's occupation and possibly beginning with "M", followed by (I think) "B Sep 23rd".

Ignore the lined column with dates, and the names, on the right hand side of the image - these apparently are a list of burials that were on the same page as the baptisms.

Any thoughts anyone?

Janice

arthurk
19-10-2008, 7:51 PM
I'd love to know about the Bishop's Transcripts. The baptism was in September 1783, in St Olave, Southwark, Surrey.
Unfortunately there aren't any BTs for St Olave before 1800 - according to the catalogue of the London Metropolitan Archives (LMA).

Arthur

Jan65
19-10-2008, 7:58 PM
Unfortunately there aren't any BTs for St Olave before 1800 - according to the catalogue of the London Metropolitan Archives (LMA).

Arthur

Oh well, thank you very much for checking Arthur, I do appreciate all this help I'm getting.

Janice

Kerrywood
19-10-2008, 8:07 PM
It may be possible to decipher more from the original register, which is often clearer than a film, and generally a lot clearer than a scanned image of a printout from a murky film. I could perhaps check the original register for you at the LMA later this week, unless it has been classed as unfit. According to the online catalogue it does appear to be accessible.

Kerrywood

Jan65
19-10-2008, 8:24 PM
Kerrywood, you are an angel, I would love it if you could check the original register for me. In fact, just seconds before I read your post, I'd posted a plea for this very thing on the London and Surrey boards! Everyone on this site is just so QUICK!!!!

By the way, what is the LMA?

Thank you, so much, again. It would really make my day - no, my year! - if you could confirm what that one little word says!

Kerrywood
19-10-2008, 8:28 PM
Can't promise anything, but I will do my best :)

LMA = London Metropolitan Archives, which is effectively the record office for what is now Greater London.

I'll get back to you
Kerrywood

Jan65
19-10-2008, 8:29 PM
I'll be waiting. Thanks, Kerrywood.

suffolk sue
19-10-2008, 9:43 PM
Can we ask, what you are hoping it might be?

Jan65
20-10-2008, 11:11 AM
Can we ask, what you are hoping it might be?

Well I was hoping something to do with teaching, as my George Heslop was a Schoolmaster.

At first I wondered if it could be "Master" but looking at a website on old occupations, the term "Master" refers to a skilled tradesman, so now I'm not sure.

Also, possibly it doesn't even begin with M. This is just what it looks like it might be, to me!

arthurk
20-10-2008, 7:32 PM
A couple more thoughts after having a look for George Heslop on a subscription site:

Boyd's Marriage Index (doesn't cover the country completely, but is worth using alongside the IGI etc) has the marriage you mention in London - George Heslop and Ann Turner in St Marylebone in 1782. However, it also has marriages of George Heslop to Ann WHITE in 1779 and Ann HARKER in 1799, both in Grinton, which is nobbut a stone's throw from Kirby Ravensworth. (Plus a few others nearer than London)

Second, the same site has an index to certain marriage licences, and it appears that the St Marylebone marriage took place by licence, issued by the Faculty Office. So, if the St Marylebone PR doesn't help in working out if it's your George, the licence might. Faculty Office licences are at Lambeth Palace Library, from where you should be able to obtain a copy. (I'm afraid I don't know the cost or procedure.)

Arthur

Jan65
20-10-2008, 8:25 PM
Arthur, thank you so much for this information. I will have a go at investigating the licence possibility. Another ray of hope!

As to the two Grinton George Heslop marriages, I have already managed to eliminate these two through contacts who have these Georges in their tree and have given me information that has helped me to eliminate them. I'm reasonably confident, therefore, that neither of these Georges are my George - although it's likely that they're related in some way, being so close geographically to mine.

I would be interested to know the other George Heslop marriages that you've found, though.

My George was born 1760, son of George Heslop and Mary Shaw. He and wife Deborah Ann had seven children that I know of - Mary 1783 (London), Ann 1784 (my ancestor), Jane 1786 (London), George 1788, Richard 1792, Mary 1794 and Grace Shaw 1797.

The reason I think the two London baptisms are their children is simply down to his wife's name. I thought the chances of two George Heslops being married to a Deborah Ann were pretty small - although I do realise that these sorts of coincidences do happen - but for the moment I'm going with this to see where it leads me.

I seem to be leaking out information in dribs and drabs but I didn't want to post everything I knew at the start as it can get a bit overwhelming, also my original question was simply about the London School! I didn't dream I'd get so much help about George himself along the way.

Thanks very much, again.

Janice

arthurk
21-10-2008, 7:42 PM
I would be interested to know the other George Heslop marriages that you've found, though.

Here are the ones from the 1780s (year - bride - place):
1782 - Ann Reeder - Hunsingore, YKS
1783 - Mary Norton - Brancepeth, DUR
1784 - Susan(na) Dawson - Greatham, DUR
1787 - An Tomson - Sunderland, DUR

Looking over a longer period, the majority of Heslops seemed to be from Co. Durham. Hope this helps!

Arthur

swisschick
21-10-2008, 8:34 PM
Hello

Getting back to one of the original comments about degrees conferred by the Archbishop of Canterbury, they are called Lambeth degrees and were given for many disciplines. You can google them for more information and I know that there are lists of the people they were conferred upon, often under the name of particular schools. I hope this may help.

Jan65
22-10-2008, 7:18 PM
Here are the ones from the 1780s (year - bride - place):
1782 - Ann Reeder - Hunsingore, YKS
1787 - An Tomson - Sunderland, DUR


Thank you Arthur, these two are definitely worth investigating, especially Ann Reeder. I will have to check where Hunsingore is. The Ann Tomson one in Sunderland I think is less likely as there were three children born before this date (assuming that the London ones are theirs) although I know this doesn't automatically rule it out!

I thought you might like to know that after contacting the Lambeth Palace Library yesterday, they have written back to me to say that although the licence doesn't exist in their records (they say that it would have been given to the couple themselves), the marriage allegation is available for me to buy! I don't know what information it will hold but I am going to buy it to see if it gives me any more clues or even confirms that they're my couple. All thanks to you and your help! Many, many thanks, I'm thrilled.

Janice

Jan65
22-10-2008, 7:22 PM
Hello

Getting back to one of the original comments about degrees conferred by the Archbishop of Canterbury, they are called Lambeth degrees and were given for many disciplines. You can google them for more information and I know that there are lists of the people they were conferred upon, often under the name of particular schools. I hope this may help.


Thank you very much for this information - I had googled and discovered these Lambeth degrees, although I didn't discover that there were lists of people who'd been given them. Would you happen to know how I could access these lists? I'll have another google though to see if I can find out! Many thanks again, all information is very welcome.

Janice

arthurk
23-10-2008, 7:00 PM
I thought you might like to know that after contacting the Lambeth Palace Library yesterday, they have written back to me to say that although the licence doesn't exist in their records (they say that it would have been given to the couple themselves), the marriage allegation is available for me to buy!

They are quite correct in this, and I had misled you slightly. With any kind of marriage licence, all that is usually available for research is the bond and/or allegation. However, it's still a useful document - generally they give the names, ages and addresses of both parties, and the details of a bondsman. If one party is a minor, you'd often see a father's name too.

Arthur

Kerrywood
24-10-2008, 3:14 PM
I think George's occupation is Merchant (Mer, small superscript C hooked to the H, then superscript T). That is just my view, and others may see it differently.

The allegation for the marriage licence sworn by George HESLOP on 1 Nov 1782 states that both he and Ann TURNER were aged 24 years. He was a bachelor and she a spinster, and both were of the parish of St Marylebone, George having been resident there for at least four weeks. Beyond that, the allegation adds nothing to the details in the St Marylebone marriage register, which I understand you've already seen.

I don't know whether either of these pieces of information gets you any further :confused:

Kerrywood

Jan65
25-10-2008, 11:32 AM
I think George's occupation is Merchant (Mer, small superscript C hooked to the H, then superscript T). That is just my view, and others may see it differently.

Kerrywood, I agree with your interpretation, that's exactly what it looks like. Can I just say a huge thank you for your efforts on my behalf, it's wonderful to at last be able to see the word clearly enough to have a proper stab at reading it!

With this new information, plus the allegation info, I'm now beginning to doubt whether this marriage is the one I was hoping it to be.

As you know from my previous posts, my George Heslop was - at least in 1823 and after - a school master. As I couldn't find a marriage of a George to a Deborah Ann, and knowing from the gravestone that she may have been known simply as Ann, I widened my search to marriages between a George and Ann, which is when I found this one in Marylebone in 1782.

After also finding this St Olave baptism of Mary Heslop in 1783, where the mother was named as Deborah Ann, I was convincing myself that the Marylebone marriage was the right one.

Now that I can see that the George in the baptism was a Merchant, I'm not sure whether either of the documents relate to my own George and Deborah Ann.

Another problem is their ages on the marriage allegation. My George was baptised in late 1760 and although there is no actual birth date for him I had assumed that he was baptised as a baby. If so, he should have been 22 at the time of this marriage. Although I suppose it's possible he could have been baptised as a two-year-old (one of his own children was baptised at the age of 2, so I know it sometimes did happen).

I have as yet no information on Deborah Ann's birth, but from her burial in December 1836, where she was said to be 82, was assuming therefore that she was born in 1754, making her 28 at the time of this marriage.

I also think it's possible that they both tweaked their ages a little in order to appear to be the same age for some reason - but why would they bother to do this?

A lady at Lambeth Palace Library who has also looked up this allegation for me, said that it was fairly unusual for the ages to be stated in this way; that mostly ages were recorded as being full age or over 21, so the statement that they were both "twenty four years of age" could be deemed as being a little odd.

Out of interest, she also said that there is no indication as to why they wanted to marry in such a hurry - if this is the George and Deborah Ann in the baptism of Mary in St Olave in September 1783, then that was ten months later, so presumably I could rule out pregnancy (unless she was pregnant at her marriage and then miscarried, becoming pregnant again almost immediately?)

Not sure, with these anomalies, whether I should look again for my George and Deborah Ann's marriage.

Thanks everyone for your help, and any further suggestions or thoughts in the light of this new information would be most welcome!

Janice

Jan65
25-10-2008, 11:42 AM
Sorry folks, posted some duff information by mistake. Can't work out if I can delete the post entirely, so have just cut the info out of the post!

Kerrywood
25-10-2008, 12:10 PM
It's a difficult one. The baptism could well be the correct family. As you said earlier, the chances of two George HESLOPs being married to a Deborah Ann are pretty small.

But the Marylebone marriage to Ann looks less certain. I don't see a problem with the dates of licence/marriage though. One of the points of marrying by licence (which cost money) was to save time -- George, if he was the merchant, could have been about to travel away on business, etc. Marrying by licence and avoiding banns also enabled a couple to preserve privacy without having their business publicised in church to all and sundry. Were the witnesses to the Marylebone marriage any help?

As for George's occupation, you are looking at a 40-year gap between his being a Merchant in 1783 and a schoolmaster in the 1820s. He would have been in his 60s then, and almost anything could have happened in the meantime. Retiring to a school in the country might have been an attractive proposition?

Perhaps try searching anew for this George HESLOP as a Merchant, to see if he can be pinned down anywhere and/or eliminated? Try for clues in some of the online databases like National Archives + A2A, the London Gazette, The Times, Old Bailey online, Sun Fire insurance index etc. Maybe early directories too? No doubt others can suggest more ideas.

Did your George leave a will? Sorry if you've already clarified that, but tracking back I couldn't see it mentioned.

Kerrywood

Jan65
25-10-2008, 1:02 PM
Were the witnesses to the Marylebone marriage any help?


I haven't seen the original marriage unfortunately, just the IGI entry and the Pallot Marriage Index entry, so I don't know who the witnesses were. Perhaps someone reading this would be willing to look at the original for me?


George, if he was the merchant, could have been about to travel away on business.

I did wonder if it might be that George wanted to return home to Yorkshire, taking his bride with him, but the London baptism of Mary the following year doesn't fit with that theory.


Marrying by licence and avoiding banns also enabled a couple to preserve privacy without having their business publicised in church to all and sundry.

I hadn't thought of it like that, it's a good point.


As for George's occupation, you are looking at a 40-year gap between his being a Merchant in 1783 and a schoolmaster in the 1820s. He would have been in his 60s then, and almost anything could have happened in the meantime. Retiring to a school in the country might have been an attractive proposition?

According to the baptisms of his other children, apart from one other London one, they were all born in Kirkby Ravensworth area which suggests that he'd lived there for a long time rather than just retired there. But I do think it's possible that he changed career somewhere along the line.


Perhaps try searching anew for this George HESLOP as a Merchant, to see if he can be pinned down anywhere and/or eliminated? Try for clues in some of the online databases like National Archives + A2A, the London Gazette, The Times, Old Bailey online, Sun Fire insurance index etc. Maybe early directories too?

Thank you for these suggestions, I will definitely give them a try. I have used some of these before, but not all, so thank you for the information.


Did your George leave a will?

I haven't found a will, but have only used online sources so far. I think it's possible he may have done given that he seems to have been a fairly prominent member of the community, presumably, given his occupation(?) Apart from online sources I've not searched for wills this far back and am not sure how to go about this. Any tips welcome!

Thanks again Kerrywood, you've been great.

Kerrywood
25-10-2008, 1:44 PM
I haven't seen the original marriage unfortunately, just the IGI entry and the Pallot Marriage Index entry, so I don't know who the witnesses were. Perhaps someone reading this would be willing to look at the original for me?

Sorry, I can't do this right now, as I am working away from London next week. Anyone else?


According to the baptisms of his other children, apart from one other London one, they were all born in Kirkby Ravensworth area which suggests that he'd lived there for a long time rather than just retired there.

I had forgotten that point |oopsredfa


I haven't found a will, but have only used online sources so far. I think it's possible he may have done given that he seems to have been a fairly prominent member of the community, presumably, given his occupation(?) Apart from online sources I've not searched for wills this far back and am not sure how to go about this. Any tips welcome!

Normally for a North Yorkshire will I'd start with the Borthwick Institute at York University

http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/bihr/Guidesandfindingaids.htm

But someone else on this forum is bound to have more specialist knowledge of the area.

Kerrywood

Wirral
25-10-2008, 4:51 PM
On the National Archives website there is a will for a Deborah HESLOP, widow, of Nottingham Place, Middlesex, 8 Feb 1828. Could she be the Deborah who marries George in London? The will is 7 pages long, so it sounds as if it might be quite detailed.

Kerrywood
25-10-2008, 5:40 PM
Isn't that Dorothy HESLOP?

Kerrywood

Jan65
25-10-2008, 8:46 PM
Hi Wirral, thank you very much for your input, but Kerrywood is right, that one is Dorothy, not Deborah. Also, the marriage in London is of an Ann - it's just me putting two and two together and wondering if Ann could actually be my Deborah Ann.

My Deborah Ann died in 1836 so presumably any will that she left would be around this date - actually I'm not too hot on wills, so am not sure whether that's right. Are wills always dated after the death, or from when they were actually made?

Kerrywood
26-10-2008, 11:41 AM
The effective date of a will is the date of probate, not the date of writing. If Deborah Ann predeceased her husband, she wouldn't normally have left a will. As a married woman at that date, her property would have automatically belonged to her husband.

But regarding George, there's something of possible interest in the London Gazette in 1785.

Put "London Gazette" into your favourite search engine.
Select Advanced Search (top right)
Search on George Heslop (exact phrase), on these dates

12 March 1785
29 March 1785
7 June 1785

Given the occupation in the baptism register and the Dalton connection, could this be your man?

Kerrywood

arthurk
26-10-2008, 7:48 PM
Normally for a North Yorkshire will I'd start with the Borthwick Institute at York University

http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/bihr/Guidesandfindingaids.htm

But someone else on this forum is bound to have more specialist knowledge of the area.

Apart from a few peculiar jurisdictions, the western part of the North Riding was part of the Archdeaconry of Richmond in the Diocese of Chester. This included Kirby Ravensworth. Probate records for this area are at West Yorkshire Archives in Leeds - not necessarily the first place you'd think of.

Arthur

Kerrywood
26-10-2008, 7:51 PM
Even for 1841, Arthur? I thought those were for much earlier dates. We live and learn :)

Kerrywood

arthurk
26-10-2008, 8:38 PM
Yes, right up to 1858.

Arthur

Jan65
27-10-2008, 1:22 PM
But regarding George, there's something of possible interest in the London Gazette in 1785.
Given the occupation in the baptism register and the Dalton connection, could this be your man?

Kerrywood, this is amazing!!!! SURELY this is my George?

My George was born in Dalton, and his father was George too, so he would be George the Younger if you like. George's second child, Ann, was baptised at Kirkby Ravensworth in December 1784, so I know he probably lived in Dalton at the time of these articles in the London Gazette. The George in the London baptism of Mary in 1782 was a Merchant, which is what the bankrupt George was. The George in that baptism was married to a Deborah Ann, as was mine, although mine was a schoolmaster.

All this cross-referenced information must point to these "three" Georges - the Merchant, the Bankrupt, and the Schoolmaster - all being the same person?

I think I'm probably as convinced as I can be that this is my man!

Perhaps being declared bankrupt could account for his change in career?

I had tried to search the London Gazette after you mentioned it in a previous post, without success as my computer kept crashing for some reason. I'm so glad you did this on my behalf and prompted me to try again, because otherwise I might have forgotten to go back to it.

I honestly can't thank you enough. What a rich - no pun intended - history I'm gathering on my George! It's absolutely fantastic.

Janice

Jan65
27-10-2008, 1:25 PM
Apart from a few peculiar jurisdictions, the western part of the North Riding was part of the Archdeaconry of Richmond in the Diocese of Chester. This included Kirby Ravensworth. Probate records for this area are at West Yorkshire Archives in Leeds - not necessarily the first place you'd think of.


Arthur, thank you very much for this information. I'm going to try to contact them to do a search for a will for me. Fingers crossed. Wouldn't that just be the icing on the cake?!

I'm loving this forum!!!!

Janice

Jan65
28-10-2008, 9:02 AM
Another thing I've just thought of - this explains why George had one child in London in 1783, then his second back in Dalton in 1784, with his third being baptised in St James, Westminster, in October 1786. The rest of his children were then baptised in Dalton. I'd always wondered about this, and always had a niggling doubt that the two London baptisms were George's children - the saving grace being Deborah Ann's slightly unusual name. Now I have a solid reason for it!

He obviously returned to London to appear at the Guildhall as requested during the early part of 1785 and stayed a while before returning to North Yorkshire. Not knowing anything about the Guildhall, I googled it and discovered it not TOO far away from the Westminster district, so this fits.

What would have happened to George after he was declared bankrupt? I've heard of debtor's prison, but would George have gone to prison for being bankrupt? I'm very ignorant about these sorts of matters, unfortunately.

Would there be any other documents anywhere that I could access regarding George's bankruptcy?

Janice

Kerrywood
28-10-2008, 9:28 AM
As a bankrupt, rather than an insolvent debtor, he would have had his debts discharged by the bankruptcy commissioners. Theoretically he may have been able to re-establish himself in business, if he had a little help from his friends? Relatively little documentation survives for bankrupts at this period, but have a look at the standard TNA research guide for clues

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=145

I'm off line for a week now. Good hunting! :)

Kerrywood

Jan65
28-10-2008, 11:14 AM
Kerrywood, thank you for all your help and enjoy your time offline!

Janice

Jan65
04-11-2008, 9:57 PM
Update - for those interested!

Having recently heard of a James Coates who was another schoolmaster at Newsham in the 1780s, I googled the name and discovered that extracts from his diary had been published! I was so excited to think that I might learn something of local events at that time, so I ordered it, and have just received this wonderful little book in the post ... and amazingly there are lots of little references to the Heslop family in his diary entries.

There are references to a Mr Heslop from London concerning his son; plus a John Heslop; a Nicholas Heslop; a Robert Heslop; a Christopher Heslop; a William Heslop ... and an entry for Friday 18 March 1785 which mentioned a newspaper article about George Heslop of Dalton Turner [sic] being bankrupt! Obviously this was the London Gazette article that Kerrywood guided me to.

My George had brothers called ... wait for it ... John, Robert, Christopher and William! The only one I can't tie in is Nicholas, although on the IGI there is a Nicholas born at Kirkby Ravensworth in 1721, so perhaps he was an older generation member of the family.

At first the mention of Mr Heslop in London excited me, as I thought it might be George, but this entry was in relation to a letter James had written to Mr Heslop regarding Mr Heslop's son (no other names or details being mentioned). After thinking about it rationally, and wondering why James would write to this man about his son, I came to the conclusion that the son was one of James' pupils. Unfortunately my George, in London, did not at this time have a son old enough to be at school. So almost certainly not my George, but possibly related somehow.

I also wonder if anyone can help me with another little mystery? I'll quote from the diary:

"I heard that a man was broken and he owed John Heslop 200."

Another entry, presumably about the same John, reads:

“Received the newspaper … find that James Appleton is a bankrupt and it is him that has broke both Robert and John Heslop. John need come no more to Newsham without a great deal of cash. He has hurt many individuals, through his rashness in buying Firkins, beef and bacon.”

I believe that John may be the son of Robert in this instance, as John is referred to earlier in the diary as a young man, and it's possible that Robert was an oilman residing at the time in London, being made bankrupt there according to another entry, and the London Gazette.

My query is this ... what is meant by "broke" and "broken"? Is it in the financial sense, as we can use the word today, as in "I'm broke" meaning we have no money? I'm also confused about who is the victim in this situation, because if it's John who's "broke", then how has he hurt people? It all seems a bit of a contradiction and I'm struggling to understand what it means. Any thoughts very welcome!

Janice

Edit - have just googled the term "broke" to discover that it can mean ... bankrupt! So presumably "a man was broken" in this diary must refer to a man being made bankrupt, and then in the second entry, the man's name is confirmed, along with the information that this has in turn made both Robert and John Heslop bankrupt too. Have I interpreted this correctly?

Kerrywood
05-11-2008, 4:17 PM
Having recently heard of a James Coates who was another schoolmaster at Newsham in the 1780s, I googled the name and discovered that extracts from his diary had been published! I was so excited to think that I might learn something of local events at that time, so I ordered it, and have just received this wonderful little book in the post ... and amazingly there are lots of little references to the Heslop family in his diary entries.

You really struck gold with the diary - what an interesting find!


So presumably "a man was broken" in this diary must refer to a man being made bankrupt, and then in the second entry, the man's name is confirmed, along with the information that this has in turn made both Robert and John Heslop bankrupt too. Have I interpreted this correctly?

That seems a reasonable interpretation, given what you say of the context. Have you been able to check the Gazette for any other bankruptcies relating to this family?

I wonder if the record office at Northallerton might have anything on these people? There may have been deeds, leases, indentures etc. that might throw some light on their identities/relationships. The online catalogue doesn't look too encouraging for pre-1800 material, but it might be worth an email to enquire further, if you haven't already done that?

I haven't forgotten the witnesses of the Marylebone marriage, which I'll check for you on Thursday.

Kerrywood

Jan65
05-11-2008, 8:42 PM
You really struck gold with the diary - what an interesting find!

I know, I couldn't quite believe it. The front of the book gives the names of the original diary's owners, but as this book was published almost 30 years ago, I was wondering if (and this rings a bell, somehow, I'm sure I've read this somewhere) the diary may have been deposited at Northallerton Records Office in the meantime.


Have you been able to check the Gazette for any other bankruptcies relating to this family?

There is a later entry in the diary which relates to a Robert Heslop, an oilman in London being made bankrupt, and that James Coates discovered this when reading the newspaper, which he had to go to another town to obtain. Possibly, then, the London Gazette. Throughout the diary he has picked out names from this newspaper that seem to have meant something to him, people from his local area I presume, so I'm assuming that Robert Heslop the oilman could well be the Robert Heslop of the other article, where John and Robert Heslop were "broken". James hasn't said so, but that's my conclusion. I've since found the very entry in the London Gazette and it more or less repeats what James has said in his diary. I've attempted to search for other Heslops, and there are some, but I can't tie them as yet to what I already know. I may have missed some, as well, as my computer is behaving very badly lately and sometimes crashes when I'm on the Gazette site!




I wonder if the record office at Northallerton might have anything on these people?

I am seriously thinking of going to Northallerton to see what I can find. It's not far from where I live, and I have some free time this week, I may just book myself in for Friday. I already have lots of parish information, from a distant relative that I made contact with through another family tree site, who now lives in Australia, but who uses his local Family Records Centre regularly and had ordered films of the parish records for himself, and then kindly shared the information that he found, with me. I had lots of fun sorting baptisms out and matching them to marriages of the parents in order to create family groups. But I'd like to go further back than the records he had, so I could do that, too.


I haven't forgotten the witnesses of the Marylebone marriage, which I'll check for you on Thursday.Kerrywood

That would be fantastic, Kerrywood, thank you so much!

Going back to the Robert and John Heslop who were made bankrupt by the lack of payment from James Appleton ... at first, I was thinking that Robert could be my George's brother, and that John could be Robert's son (although I don't know that he had a son called John). This was based on James Coates' description of John as a young man, and the fact that John seems to have run away to London after his "disgrace" - to his father, I assumed.

However, in 1784 when the diary was written, George's brother Robert would only be about 28 years old. Too young himself to have a "young man" for a son, whether named John or not.

So having more or less dismissed this possibility, I then began to wonder whether Robert and John were BOTH George's brothers, knowing that he did have two elder brothers with these names. But brother John would himself be 26 years old in 1784, actually older than James Coates who was only around 23 years of age at that point.

Do you think it's feasible that at this age, James would have described in his diary a man who was three years older than himself, as a "young man"?

If Robert and John were NOT my George's brothers, and I don't think they were father and son because of the above, then this means that there were two more Robert and John Heslops from the same area at the same time, but who had moved to London like my George, and I can't tie them into my family at all. Of course I know that this is feasible as many branches of the same family had names repeated, but these villages are so SMALL! I'm certain in my heart that these two men are mine but as yet can't prove it. Even if they're not who I think they are, they must surely be related in some way.

I admit to whiling away many happy hours thinking of all these scenarios - perhaps I need someone to pull me back down to earth!

Janice

Kerrywood
06-11-2008, 7:39 PM
According to the Harleian Society transcripts, the witnesses to the marriage at St Marylebone on 5 Nov 1782 of George HESLOP and Ann TURNER were Bern.d TURNER and John OLDFIELD. Both signed their names. The marriage was by licence, and I think you already have the details from the allegation that was found earlier. I don't know if this helps at all?

Kerrywood

Jan65
06-11-2008, 8:16 PM
Thank you for doing this for me Kerrywood, very much appreciated. Unfortunately the names don't mean anything to me - yet! Presumably Bern(ar)d (?) Turner was a relative of Ann, but John Oldfield is a mystery.

In the now famous diary, there is an entry on Friday 26 November 1784 which reads:

"I heard that Geo Heslop of Dalton Tun [sic] is at Berwick upon Tweed. He is turned out a great swindler."

Now I wonder what THAT means?! It's shortly before my George was made bankrupt, so if it's referring to him, I wonder whether it has anything to do with that? Could George be a swindler and still return home in order to take up a respected profession like a schoolmaster? The mystery deepens.

I will do some digging on the Bernard Turner and John Oldfield and see if I can come up with anything.

Not able to go to Northallerton tomorrow after all, so that pleasure will have to wait a while.

Jan65
06-11-2008, 8:56 PM
Well well well ... Good old Google has come up with two possibilities for Bernard Turner.

In 1783, the sheriff of London was Sir Bernard Turner. If I've understood the information correctly.

But more excitingly, I think, is this more specific reference in a directory called "An Historical, Topographical, and Descriptive View of the County Palatine of Durham".

Church of St Mary le Bow, City of Durham (monument inscriptions):
On a slab below the gallery:
"Here lie the remains of Mr Bernard Turner, late of Mortimer Street in the parish of St Mary le Bone, London, who died the 7th of December 1788 aged 75 years."

Wow. A possible relative of Ann (father/grandfather?) who lived in the parish where she was married, at the right time, and who ended up being buried in Durham. The villages where the Heslops lived were on the border between North Yorkshire and Durham.

I'm speechless. For once. I wonder if this is the witness?

Kerrywood
06-11-2008, 10:28 PM
Well done! You can download his PCC will from Documents Online.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?queryType=1&resultcount=1&Edoc_Id=437481

Kerrywood

Jan65
07-11-2008, 1:16 PM
Thanks Kerrywood, hadn't thought - yet - of looking for a will! I have now downloaded it - I haven't transcribed it all yet, but skimming through it, I'm elated to see that "Ann Heslop, wife of George Heslop", was Bernard's niece and he left her a bequest of the interest on an annuity of 500 for her lifetime, then the 500 to be split between any children she may have, and in the event of her having no children, to his nephew John Turner's children (possibly Ann's brother, then, and the executor of the will.)

I'm so overwhelmed by all this information. One little niggle (am I never happy?!) - if only Ann had been named as Deborah Ann in the will, that would have been fantastic and would have confirmed almost everything, but a little too much to hope for, I suppose!

I also note that Bernard, poor soul, was not buried where he had requested to be. If he died in Middlesex then he wanted to be with his brother's wife and his niece in Finchley Church "as near as can be to the clerks reading desk", and if he died anywhere in the county of York he wanted to be in the parish church of (looks like) Crambe, with the remains of his "dear mother". So I wonder how he ended up in St Mary le Bow in Durham? Presumably he was in Durham when he died and obviously hadn't thought of that possibility!

However, I'm inclined to think that this does reinforce the idea that he had family in Yorkshire, or at least some reason for regularly visiting.

Janice

gimmerlamb
21-02-2011, 8:35 PM
Jan,
I have not been in touch for ages, but have just found another reference to your George Heslop schoolteacher at Newsham, he was witness to a will of someone else in Newsham in 1816 and signed as George Heslop of Newsham schoolmaster.
Marion M
moverley DOT lyons AT virgin DOT net