Manorial Court query

[BearPear]

I have a copy of a manorial court decision which begins dated 1784 and appears to be a man (Henry Moore, my ancestor) and his wife (Elizabeth nee Rose) and she is noted as the legal heir of her deceased father (Thomas Rose). The text seems to say that and they are surrendering the late father's copyhold tenancy back to the Lord of the Manor (John Custance of Norfolk).

However, the back page of the document is a comment "we present this as part of our verdict" and it is dated 1787 - 3 years after the main body of the document.

What could have been happening in those interim years and is there somewhere else that I should look to get more information? And where / what is the verdict?

Thanks

[Geoffers]

It's difficult to say what was happening in the missing three years, disputes over property could take some time to resolve, maybe there was aquaetion as to whether another surviving child/relative had a claim to the copyhold?


Looking at NROCAT, I take it that the document you have is:
CatalogueRefMC 2575/9/8, 983X9 TitleCopy absolute surrender, (1) Henry Moore of Mattishall, tallow chandler, and wife Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of Thomas Rose of same, gent., to (2) John Custance of Weston House, esq.: property in manor of Clayhall in Witchingham Date9 Nov 1784

Have you looked to see if there are any other relevant documents on NROCAT? - Or on the Manorial Documents Register (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/mdr/) ?

[BearPear]

Yes, that's the document I have and, no there is nothing else at the Record Office (without getting there myself, there isn't anything on the on-line catalogue).

I also checked that maorial record source you quoted and it turns out that it is Cley Hall, not Clay Hall (or even Clayhall).

According to the record I have, Elizabeth was "solely and secretly examined and freely consenting" and there is no suggestion that she wasn't the legal heir. My dig into this side of the family leads me to think that I really need to go to Norfolk - there must be more to find down there!

Thanks for the info Geoffers.

[BeeE586]

Did Thomas Rose make a will ? Knowing the precise nature of the bequest may help. Was the land held for "a term of years ?" This could be "two lifetimes" or a specified period and had the term expired ? Manorial Law I have always found to be so convoluted that sometimes one needs to go back twenty or more years to find the first mention of a property and to trace it that way. Is Thomas Rose mentioned anywhere previously as the owner and can you find how he acquired it - there may be a clue there as to why it reverted to the Lord of the Manor.

The possibilities are endless and I suspect that you really need to see the full Manor Court Rolls for yourself.

Eileen

[Marie C..]

You just have to get to Norfolk, Pear Bear.
There is so much in the record office there in Norwich. Also Norwich library(go up in the lift) has a lot of stuff in it's family history bit and staff are helpful.
Mattishall is a bit out of Norwich along the A47.
Now is a good time to go before the weather gets colder.
Marie

[Geoffers]

Yes, that's the document I have and, no there is nothing else at the Record Office (without getting there myself, there isn't anything on the on-line catalogue).

The online catalogue is pretty good - it may be that any other papers just have not survived. This is so often the case and we are left trying to put together part of the jigsaw in an attempt to see what the overall picture might have been.

Eileen's suggestion of looking for wills of the various family members is a good idea


I also checked that manorial record source you quoted and it turns out that it is Cley Hall, not Clay Hall (or even Clayhall).

Spelling of places has varied over time and is mostly the result of the varied Norfolk dialect.


My dig into this side of the family leads me to think that I really need to go to Norfolk - there must be more to find down there.

Well I can't put you off a trip to Norfick - Fare yer well tergether.

[BearPear]

Thanks everyone, I'm off to negotiate a weekend pass away from husband and 2 teenage kids...There's no way that they would spend even 10 minutes in a record office with me!

The loneliness of a long-distance genealogist!

[robbieuk]

Manor Records are a fantastic source! So often family historians get excited about church registers (fair enough) but the manor records are fascinating - and can add generations, extra names, relationships and social nuances to what we discover. I recently got a bundle of documents at NRO that provided a history of my family from 1920s back to 1600s. Amazing. It was quite emotional to hold the parchments, untie the ribbons and see the signatures of my ancestors, whose names had only ever been entreies ina chart before.

[BeeE586]

Manor Records are a fantastic source! So often family historians get excited about church registers (fair enough) but the manor records are fascinating - and can add generations, extra names, relationships and social nuances to what we discover. I recently got a bundle of documents at NRO that provided a history of my family from 1920s back to 1600s. Amazing. It was quite emotional to hold the parchments, untie the ribbons and see the signatures of my ancestors, whose names had only ever been entreies ina chart before.

So true - I have said it many times, there is nothing in Family History to compare with the thrill of handling actual documents that your forbears would have seen, signed or handled in past centuries. Even the X in a marriage register is personal to them. I can read a set of Manorial Records as if it were a book, endlessly fascinating.

Eileen

[BearPear]

Ooh, Finbar, that looks interesting. I recently received a voucher for a well-known book store and this could be the perfect purchase!

Thanks,

Clare

[BearPear]

Thanks to Finbar's recommendation, the book has been ordered today, but won't be here until after Christmas, but by then I think I could do with being curled up in a quiet corner with a good read!

Happy Christmas all you lovely B-G people,

Clare

[BearPear]

Hi Finbar - you must have caught me on a little surfette!

I am working through the Parson's diary at the moment, I'm up to about 1780 when he had recently moved to Norfolk. There has been a big storm which caused a lot of damage to his church which has been a bit of a trauma, but not enough to put him off his food, man that guy can eat!

There have been a couple of tantalising references to Mattishall, and Mr Custance gets a mention. I shall plod on, ignoring his wild & varied diet!

Clare

[robbieuk]

Hello,

I urge you to take a look at the diaries of Parson James Woodforde. The edited and published editions may not reveal much about the Rose family, but the original diaries do.

John Rose was a Weston farmer, he died aged 81 in 1778. A few months later Mary Rose aged 20 years died - Woodforde says from a terrible consumption. Her grave, when dug, was not long enough - and after the funeral Woodforde shared his frustrations with the gravedigger, parish clerk James Smith.

Mary Rose died at the house of another Weston farmer, John Mann. Woodforde later reveals that 'young John Rose' [1789] was nephew to John Mann.

Thomas Rose married Abigail Kendal at Weston in 1742 by Licence, both came from Mattishall. Find this and the other entries at FreeReg.

Good luck!