Kempster, 1841 census

[Philippa_Harvey]

Details from the census:

Buckinghamshire, Parish of Wingrove with Rowsham.

Registration District: Aylesbury
Sub Reg Dist: Aston Clinton
Household:
Kempster
Caleb 2
John 30, Occupation Ag Lab
Sally 5
Sophia 30
Stephen 6
Address: Tomlins Cottage.

Questions: Does anyone know exactly where the family was living? (My knowledge of geography in the UK is poor to say the least). Does it mean the "village" of Wingrave?

I imagine that Tomlins Cottage would be accommodation owned by John's employer. Could this be right or am I really off the track here?

Is there any way of finding out whether the cottage (or any remnants or evidence of it) still exists?

A big ask, I know, but hopefully someone will be able to point me in the right direction.

I know there are innumerable buildings/homes/cottages still standing all over the UK that are a lot older than 1841 and just hope that "mine" might be one of them!!!!!!

If anyone can tell me where to look or how to go about getting more information I'd be eternally grateful.|bowdown|

Philippa

[Sue Mackay]

Looking at the actual 1841 image it says 'end of Wingrove' at the foot of the preceding page and 'hamlet of Rowsham' at the foot of the page with Tomlins Cottage, so it looks as if your ancestor lived in Rowsham rather than Wingrove. They are very close to each other. If you Google
Rowsham Buckinghamshire
the first hit that comes up is for the ukvillages site, and there is an aerial photograph.

[Philippa_Harvey]

Saw the "end of" on the page but because this is my first foray into any form of census search I assumed it meant "end of page" rather than end of hamlet or village or whatever.

Each bit of information received certainly helps with the next run, doesn't it?

I'll go and "google" now and see what I can find, particularly regarding Rowsham. I did this earlier today but checked out Aylesbury because until this minute it was the only physical identification I had. I gave up when I realised it was a bit of a long shot (and didn't know what I was looking for anyway). While I'm still far from sure about what I'm looking for (given that well over 100 years have gone by) at least it will give me an idea of the place itself. Maybe "in the course of time" more information will come to light.

Thanks again for your help!!!

Philippa

[michaelpipe]

This guy is the parish clerk for Wingrave & Rowsham Parish Council

John Alexander 1 The Dean, Wingrave, HP22 4PZ email wingraverowshamclerk (at) hotmail (dot) co (dot) uk - just replace the at & dots (stops scammers).

I have found in the past that this type of contact can often put you in touch with someone who has all the answers on local matters.

Nothing to loose - worst case is that they don't reply!
Michael

[Philippa_Harvey]

I have just finished with google maps and checked out Rowsham. It is still so rural and not very big at all!!!!!!!!!! I think I expected a transformation taking place over the years that would have incorporated this area into just another suburban mass. How delightful to see it appears to be relatively unspoiled!!!

With the apparent lack of growth and the presence of what seem to be so many old buildings, surely (please, please, grovel, grovel) there would be something left of Mr Tomlins (assuming that was the man's name of course)?

Hope is kicking in and seemingly reigns supreme.

Is there an historical society in Rowsham? A genealogical group? An archivist perhaps in the local library? Anything or anyone or any address that I could use to chase up the information about my rellies would be a wonderful early Christmas present.

I certainly don't want anyone to do research that I can do for myself, but pointers are always appreciated.|help|

The goosebumps are growing and I feel very hopeful that at least in this area I might be able to achieve something after all. Do you think I'm expecting too much? No, of course you don't - you are, after all, obsessive like myself!!!:D

Philippa

[Philippa_Harvey]

Michael, you are a gem. You anticipated my questions and responded while I was typing up my last comments.

I'll get in touch with John Alexander and see what happens. As you say, nothing to lose, and who knows - he might come up with something constructive (does my being on the other side of the world count in this?).

Thank you so much. If you haven't already been told of your place I'll tell you now that you have defintely joined the rank of angels.

Don't people say now that this world was a cold and unfriendly place? Whoever did say that should take up genealogy as an all encompassing passion!!!!

Philippa|cheers|

[Aussiebird]

Phillipa
Your family have intrigued me, so I have just been on a world tour on my computer to check out the village of Rowsham. Its lovely.I put this into Wikipedia on googlemaps and thought you might like to do the same as it is very interesting "Aston Clinton". From what I can gather Aston Clinton was the estate owned by The Rothchilds Family. Tomlins Cottage may have been one of the cottages on the Estate.
Loved my little trip.
Thanks.

[michaelpipe]

I'll get in touch with John Alexander and see what happens. As you say, nothing to lose, and who knows - he might come up with something constructive (does my being on the other side of the world count in this?).

Philippa|cheers|

Good luck - if you don't get a reply there are other avenues, for example, council archives etc.

Michael

[Philippa_Harvey]

Well I've sent off a message to John Armstrong asking about Tomlins Cottage in particular and can only wait now to see what happens.

Aussiebird, I agree - it is certainly a delightful area. Did my google thing after I saw your message. Picture perfect, almost. Since John and his family came to Australia in 1848 they were probably there a little early for the Rothchild family, but maybe the previous owners were the employers? It's so easy to conjecture, and I have to discipline myself to wait, and hope that I get something helpful from Mr Armstrong.

I will certainly let everyone know the results of the enquiry - keeping fingers etc all crossed in the meantime.

Thanks again to all of you for your interest, it helps a lot|hug|.

Philippa

[Davran]

There are a few pictures of modern Wingrave here:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/

There is also an 1882 map of Wingrave on old-maps website.

[Philippa_Harvey]

Davran, thank you. I seem to have come from a rather nice looking part of England, don't you agree? Pity I'll only ever see it via the internet, but them's the breaks I guess.

I'll check up on the old maps site and who knows - "my" cottages might even show up there.

Just read what I wrote yesterday too; must have been having a brain storm. I did send the email to the right person (checked my files to make sure, though), but wrote the wrong name in my post|blush|!! Seniors' moments are all too frequent these days.

Philippa

[Philippa_Harvey]

OK, have to resort to asking for help again as I've had no success acting independently|banghead|.

John Kempster and family lived in Tomlins Cottage at the time of the 1841 census.

Would love to know exactly where the cottage was situated.

Sent a message to John Alexander as Michael suggested but have had no response and it's now been a week. Maybe he's doing research? |sad1| Can only live in hope. Have also been on the internet almost nonstop since, trying to find out where Tomlins Cottage might have been (I doubt it still exists).

Went to the local library today and tried to find "Tomlins" in Buckinghamshire, Wingrave/Rowsham in the 1841 census with no result at all.

So, the next question has to be - where do I go next? My Kempster family arrived in Australia in 1848 so it's impossible to find them on the census following 1841, but how do I go about discovering more about John's employment and physical wereabouts before that time?

A possible is - who owned the Rothschild estate before they bought it and set it up? Not knowing what it was called before they took over is a major cause of "grrrr".|nutkick|

If anyone can point me in the right direction I'd be really happy.

Oh yes - I'm also having trouble tracking this family after their arrival in Australia, but hey, that's another story altogether.

I know, nobody ever said this chase was going to be easy.

Hopefully,

Philippa

[michaelpipe]

This has worked for me - contact the village store/post office:

Wingrave Post Office
21 Winslow Road, Wingrave, Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, HP22 4PS
01296 682964

Takes a while if you write, maybe worth a phone call. I did this for a village in Norfolk and ended up with a tree full of relations I never knew I had!

Michael

[Philippa_Harvey]

Michael, thank you so much for that. In these days of relatively impersonal cities I keep forgetting about the little local postoffice - so often the hub of life and equally a fountain of information.

While I'd love to lash out and make a phone call I think I'll write. I know it takes time, but at least I can try to set out clearly what I know and what I'd like to find out. Much simpler than to a voice over the phone (and I won't get tongue tied in the process!!).

Thank you again, I'll write today.

Philippa

[Philippa_Harvey]

Just wanted to say that I've written off to the Wingrave Post Office and the letter was posted yesterday.

All I have to do now is forget all about it :cool: and hope that some kind people over there will send me a nice Christmas present - or some information that leads towards it anyway.

I'll let you know how it all turns out.

Thanks once again for the helpful suggestions.

I guess all that's left now is |5cups| (chuckle chuckle).

Philippa

[Philippa_Harvey]

Michael, just had to let you know that I have had an email response to my letter to the Wingrave Post Office.

The lovely lady who runs the show got in touch to say that although she hasn't been in the village for long (only four years) she is definitely looking out for information for me.

There are still people called both Kempster and Fleet in the village but she's not sure of how long they have been there.

My cottage has apparently disappeared from both reality and memory, but this lady's family now live in a cottage built by the Rothschild family - after my Kempster family set sail for Australia.

There is a lady in the village who has the reputation as an historian of the area, but unfortunately she is on holidays at the moment. I do hope it's not a 12 month cruise!! When she returns our lovely postmistress will pass on my letter and then we'll see what happens.

Thanks again for supplying the contact address. First contact has been really nice, so fingers crossed that it continues.

Will update if and when anything more surfaces.

Philippa. |hug|

[Aussiebird]

Phillipa
Thats great news. Hoping they have'nt gone on 12mths holiday. Look forward to hearing more.
Cheers

[Philippa_Harvey]

Aussiebird, you have no idea of how tightly everything that I have that is crossable is well and truly crossed. Makes living a little difficult, but what else is there to do? I look a little like the Hunchback of Notre Dame at the moment!!!:)

If this woman is really a passenger on an indefinite cruise through the great unknown I think I'll just go away quietly and have a breakdown. What is is that they say - I'm having a breakdown. I have worked hard for it and I deserve it?? |blush|

Will definitely let everyone know what I hear - and thank you for the encouragement.

Philippa

[Philippa_Harvey]

Have heard from the Wingrave Post office again. The lady who is known as the local historian is back from her holiday (not a year on a cruise ship after all) and has been given my letter. She told my contact that she "thinks" she knows where Tomlins Cottage is/was. :D All I have to do now is wait - again.

All???????????? Ye Gods it's hard. The worst part is not being able to hassle this lady for information because anything she has will, and should, be offered voluntarily.

Thank goodness Christmas is going to be a busy time for me this year. I have a family wedding, visitors coming from interstate, a trip for myself and Christmas too - all packed into a very small timeframe. At least it will keep me from biting my fingernails any further. Having reached the elbow I really don't want to gnaw much more!!!!

Oh ye great genealogical gods, wherever ye may be, I bow before thee |bowdown| and BEG (yes, grovel too) that thou wilst give this lady a (gentle?) nudge in my direction!!!!!! |help| I know the ancestors won't go away, but hey, I've been looking for a while, and it is Christmas after all!!!!!!

Now I know why bears hibernate during winter. They do research through the "good" months and go to sleep so that they don't have nervous breakdowns waiting for the results to appear!!!!!!|snore|

OK back to the mundane, but I'll let you know what (if anything) comes up.

Thanks to everyone for interest and input so far - it helps to keep the enthusiasm fires stoked.

Philippa

[michaelpipe]

Have heard from the Wingrave Post office again. The lady who is known as the local historian is back from her holiday (not a year on a cruise ship after all) and has been given my letter. She told my contact that she "thinks" she knows where Tomlins Cottage is/was. :D All I have to do now is wait - again.


That's great progress - sure beats no reply.

[helena869]

Hi Philippa :)

I live not a million miles from Wingrave so if you'd like me to do anything like take photos or have a rootle around the local cemeteries for you I'd be very happy to do so. I can also go into the great metropolis that is Aylesbury and take a look at any archives that are there.

Helena :)

[Aussiebird]

That is great news for you.Lucky for you it was a short vacation.

[Philippa_Harvey]

Helena, that is an amazingly generous offer and I thank you for making it.|woohoo| !!! I would love to have photos from the cemeteries, but so far don't even know when or where the Kempster/Fleet antecedents lived and died, so that's out at the moment. But the records kept at Aylesbury? Oh my goodness, the mind just boggles.

There is obviously so much I want to know, but the down side is that there is so little I know already, therefore I don't know what to ask of you and I certainly don't want to ask the impossible. The phrase "find out all you can about "X" and let me know the results" immediately springs to mind (cringe, shudder) and that is certainly not what I'm about to repeat. :eek:

Do you think it would be best for me to post what I have (as yet unverified) here or should I contact you via a PM? Let me know and I'll go whichever way you think is best. I don't want to take up people's time on the forum with useless (to them) stuff, but I also realise that by posting details it could help someone else in the long run - maybe even other people interested in my own family. I'm confused now.|blush|

I'll wait to hear from you and in the meantime will consolidate all I've picked up from way back, when I had no idea if it could relate to me or not.

Thank you again for your oh so kind offer.|hug|

Philippa

Aussibird - I've been sweating on hearing about this woman's return because these days she could have gone and done absolutely anything in the name of a vacation!!! As you say, I'm lucky it was a short one. Hopefully when she comes back down to earth after it I'll hear from her!!!!

Michael - Whether this latest response is better than no reply at all still remains to be seen. If I never hear from her it will be worse than dire because I now know she might have something for me. But fingers, toes, eyes, all are crossed and I'm still going to put out my stocking for the genealogical fairy!!!!! Eternal Optimist? I guess so.:o

[helena869]

Philippa - I will PM you with my email address and we can proceed from there :)

[Philippa_Harvey]

Thank you, Helena. Will go check now and then follow up.

Philippa:D

[Philippa_Harvey]

..... and proof that miracles really do happen.|jumphappy

Have just had a letter from the Wingrave local historian and am totally gobsmacked (as is she) to find that we are actually related. Distantly for sure, but we share 3xgreat grandparents.

I haven't had a chance to read her letter in full (other things are getting in the way at the moment) but things are certainly moving on.

I did ask for a Christmas present didn't I?

Life really is good.|woohoo|

Add all of this to the fact the Helena is hot on the trail of my ancestors and I just can't believe my luck. Will have to find out how to do the payback thing, but at the moment am just leaping over the furniture with absolute pleasure.

Merry Christmas everyone,

Philippa

[Rubina]

Hi Phillipa

I have just read this interesting thread and I can't wait to see the photographs and find out where it all leads to for you!

Please keep us posted!

Rubina

[Philippa_Harvey]

Rubina, thank you for your interest. It's definitely been an exciting search and this latest contact is spectacular. I am hoping it will lead to a lot more knowledge of my English ancestry in the 1800s (and maybe earlier?)

To add more sweetener to the entire mix I had an email last night from a relative of my mother's favourite cousin (I'd never met any of his family), so I hope to fill in some gaps there too.

As if that wasn't enough, this morning I had a message from someone who could be called "step-related". After the death of his wife, my mother's grandfather remarried and started another family (at 60+ would you believe) and this woman who contacted me is a grand-daughter of his second marriage. Yet more gaps filled? Oh I hope so.

So now I'm torn in three directions, so will have to focus exceptionally hard to keep track of all the things happening at once.

It will probably be a little while before I can do any "reporting" about the Kempster/Fleet situation because today we have family and friends arriving from intersate for our daughter's wedding tomorrow. A full weekend and then after that dies down it's only about a week before I head off to spend Christmas with my son and his in-laws. Self discipline is being called on like never before I can tell you.

However, as soon as I have anything at all to tell you will see it here.

What did I say last night about leaping over furniture? I'm finding it hard to stay tethered at the moment - sometimes gravity just isn't enough to keep us on the ground!!!!!

The support I've found on this forum is just beyond belief. Thank you all yet again.

Philippa

|jumphappy|jumphappy|jumphappy|jumphappy

[Aussiebird]

Phillipa
Thats great news and just what you wanted for Christmas. Then to have contact with even more distant relatives would be the icing on the cake for you.

Congratulations to your daughter and best wishes on her marriage tomorrow,hope you all have a lovely day.

A Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Looking forward to your updates in the New Year.

[helena869]

This is fabulous news Philippa, and I hope I can come up trumps for you tomorrow too! :)

[Philippa_Harvey]

Hello and Happy New Year to everyone.

First of all - the wedding went off like a dream and my husband says he's never ever been to a wedding where so many people cried!! Tears of joy I have to add, mine not the least among them. I didn't take any photos, the best excuse I can offer is that I woultn't have been able to see which end of the camera was which, but there were plenty of cameras in action so all was not lost. Lovely to see someone finally finding well deserved happiness.

On the genealogical front, my Kempster/Fleet family is expanding by the minute with verified records to back up the information. Combining the package I received from my distant relative in Wingrave and the huge bonus of added information from Helena, I now have them back to the 1600s and I've been told there is more to come. Magic. One huge surprise from Wingrave was a large family tree showing many branches to almost present day, and also telling me about the amazing number of the family who also came to Australia. A far cry from my first post when all I had was the 1841 census record and then their arrival in Australia in 1848.

Now I'm faced with the very welcome task of collating all I have and trying to put it together. It is beginning to seem that I might have to start up a special dedicated tree for this family, but that's just a thought at the moment.

I cannot believe the generosity of people, both on this forum and "out there". It is absolutely mind boggling and I am eternally grateful. |angel|

I guess my next obligation (gladly taken on) will be to fill out the gaps I have in the family from their arrival in Adelaide and send the information back to Wingrave - a small way of saying thank you.

To Helena - we don't share research interest (as yet), but heartfelt thanks for your efforts. The only thing I can wish for is that your lottery tickets come through with millions and that any brick walls you have will disintegrate with very little effort.

Have a great year, everyone - mine is certainly shaping up to be very positive.

Philippa