Catholic marriage annulments

[colleen]

Does anyone know about marriage annulments? An ancestor of mine married in Tipperary in 1899 and had four children. In 1813 she remarried in Co. Cork using her maiden name and declaring herself a spinster. Her first husband had already married again saying he was a bachelor. I can only imagine the marriage in 1899 was annulled before the last child was born in 1906.

How can I find out? Are records kept? I have written to the current parish priest in Tipperary and to the Tipperary Diocese Office. No response from either.

Colleen

[Geoffers]

Does anyone know about marriage annulments? An ancestor of mine married in Tipperary in 1899 and had four children. In 1813 she remarried in Co. Cork using her maiden name and declaring herself a spinster. Her first husband had already married again saying he was a bachelor. I can only imagine the marriage in 1899 was annulled before the last child was born in 1906.

In your shoes I wouldn't entirely dismiss the possibility that:

1) She was still married at the time of her second marriage (Poor Man's Divorce = Bigamy - it happened)

2) She had divorced and took to using her maiden name thereafter.
(Try searching TNA's catalogue in the word or phrase field, enter a surname, limit the year range to 1899-1913 and in the department or series code enter J77).

[Marie C..]

Anullment in the 1960's in England was difficult enough so it must have been very difficult in Ireland two generations before. One of the reasons for an anullment being obtained would be if one or other of the parties had a previous, undisclosed, undisolved marriage,. i.e he/she was not free to marry. Another reason would be non-consummation of the marriage or that one or other was forced into the marriage. Anullment was a complicated and costly process.
Are you quite sure of the people concerned. Have you the right people?
If you are sure of the church of the original marriage then the parish priest of the time would have been the first point of contact for the couple(assuming they still lived in the same place) and through him the matter would have gone to the Bishop and Archbishop. So there would have been correspondence about it.
The library in Cork might have something on it or know where you might look.
There were two RC dioceses covering Cork, Cork and Ross was one and Cloyne the other.
Marie

[colleen]

(Try searching TNA's catalogue in the word or phrase field, enter a surname, limit the year range to 1899-1913 and in the department or seires code enter J77).

Thanks Geoffers. I'll try that.

Colleen

[colleen]

Are you quite sure of the people concerned. Have you the right people?
.......
The library in Cork might have something on it or know where you might look.
There were two RC dioceses covering Cork, Cork and Ross was one and Cloyne the other.
Marie

I am certain I have the right people. He was a career soldier and I have his service papers from initial enlistment to discharge after WW1. His wife and children were named until 1905 when they left the records. A new wife's name was added in 1908. I have the 3 marriage certs and all details match. He was in Kent but wife No.1 returned to Tipperary in 1905 and had their last child there in 1906. Father's name not included. I believe a possible cause for annulment could have been because he married as a Catholic but in fact was probably not. His records show C of E up until his marriage, then Catholic and back to C of E after 1905.

I have found it very difficult to get hold of an address for the Tipperary Diocesian Office and researching from England is impossible unless I get responses to my various letters and emails.

Many thanks for your comments and ideas. I'll follow them through.

Colleen

[colleen]

In your shoes I wouldn't entirely dismiss the possibility that:

1) She was still married at the time of her second marriage (Poor Man's Divorce = Bigamy - it happened).

I forgot to say I'm pretty sure the second marriage wasn't bigamous (in so far as I can be, of course) because she was a Catholic with children in tow and living in a small community with family all around. Everyone would have known she was married and I don't believe a Catholic priest would have let her marry again.

I have come across several cases of bigamy in my research and I know it was commonplace. This is what I though had happened here but an annulment would make more sense and I would like to prove it one way or another.

Thanks again. Colleen

[Marie C..]

Do you have details of first marriage in Tipperary? Was it in a catholic church? Do you have names and church and place. If so I think you begin there. Write to Parish Priest in charge of the church there(enclose a wee donation) and ask for copy of the details. Did the man say he was Roman Catholic.... if he did ,and if in actual fact he wasn,t, then "in the eyes of the church" there was no marriage. It was null and void. He seems to change his religion with the seasons.. They were very fussy about RC's marrying RC's. This might be why she was able to get an anullment. On the other hand it may be due some other reason entirely.If you get nothing from Pp at the Tipperary church then write again to the Cork ones. If the marriage was anulled there would be paperwork to prove it.Anullment is no simple matter.
If you are desperate to know then you just need to keep writing round.M
Can't help wondering why a girl from Cork would marry in a Tipperary church anyway?

[colleen]

Do you have details of first marriage in Tipperary? Was it in a catholic church? Do you have names and church and place. If so I think you begin there. ...If you get nothing from Pp at the Tipperary church then write again to the Cork ones. If the marriage was anulled there would be paperwork to prove it.Anullment is no simple matter.
If you are desperate to know then you just need to keep writing round.M
Can't help wondering why a girl from Cork would marry in a Tipperary church anyway?

I have written to the parish priest at Tipperary (first marriage) but have received no response. I did offer a donation for the collection plate but perhaps he would have preferred it 'up front'. She was born in Tipperary and her family lived there. The church was 'Catholic chapel' Tipperary and there is a possibility it was on the barracks but there is no mention of the barracks. No mention of religion on the marriage certificate.

The second marriage at Mitchelstown Co. Cork bothered me but I imagine she found work there. There might also have been a scandal surrounding the annulment etc. and being a single woman with three children.

I will write again to Tipperary and also to Cork. Perhaps someone will be less busy this time.

It's not so much that I'm desperate to know, just that the facts point that way and I would like to know one way or another, if it's possible.

Colleen

[Marie C..]

Colleen,
Have you looked at this site www.corkandross.org
Flip through it and there is stuff about anullments and Tribunals. M

[colleen]

Marie- Thank you for this link - I've taken a look and find it quite useful. Not yet received a response to letters to the parish priests at Tipperary and Mitchelstown and have also written to the Diocese Offices of Cashel & Emly and of Cloyne where I believe Mitchelstown is located.

I wish I could get there and speak to someone. But I think that about my Irish research in general!

Colleen

[Marie C..]

Hope you have some luck with this. On re-reading your post can't help wondering why no father's name on the child born in Tipperary. M

[colleen]

Hi Marie,

Just to tell you that when you gave me that address I emailed them (and Cashel & Emly and Cloyne once more) and today I have received a response from Cork and Ross who gave me an address (tribunals) and Cashel & Emly who suggest I approach the church where she was baptised. I will do so. When I wrote before I gave them her marriage date but I believe I know her baptismal date so this time will quote that.

Is this progress at last???

Colleen

By the way, You asked why the last child had no father's name given on the birth certificate. It could be that by the time the child was born the annulment was granted so the mother was technically single.

[Marie C..]

Colleen ,
You ask "is this progress at last?". Well I really do hope so. There must surely be a record of it somewhere and believe me the RC church is a great detective agency!
There are some good sites out there.
Don't forget if you write to the church to enclose a small donation.
Keeping fingers crossed for you,
M