London or not??

[Who.is.gladys?]

As a newbie, one of the things I have quickly discovered is that I have to stop thinking of my ancestors as living in London. I am fast developing a knowledge in the geography of London and its surrounding areas in the 1800's.

Lambeth in Surrey.
West Ham in Essex.
Etc.

This is not helped by the 'inaccuracy' of the coroner who recorded my GGrandmother's death (1960). On it my GGM's place of birth (1895) is recorded as Newham, London. BUT Newham didnt exist in the 1800's and West Ham was not in London it was in Essex.

I realise I am nitpicking here, however if all I had to go on was the death certificate I would find it very hard to uncover anything about my formidable GGM who was orphaned as a young child with little or no recollection of her family.

[pipsqueak]

It's a surprise that anyone knows where anyone was born, with not just London districts but entire counties changing. My cousin used to live in Hampshire, then Surrey and then Hampshire again and all without moving an inch!

[benny1982]

Hi

The County Of London was created in 1889. It consisted of the boroughs of Lambeth, Southwark, Greenwich, Woolwich, Eltham, Wandsworth, Poplar, Hackney, Bethnal Green, City Of London, Tower Hamlets, Islington, Holborn, Westminster, Marylebone, Paddington, Kensington & Chelsea and Stoke Newington.

Outer boroughs such as Edmonton, Willesden and Newham didt become part of London until 1965. But, those areas were so built up they were probably described as London from around 1900 onwards. Pedantically your great grandmother born 1895 was born in Newham in Essex, but she was still maybe a Greater Londoner.

The areas of London that were outside the Square Mile and that were formed into the new 1889 county were always considered London ie Soho, Islington etc.

My 4xgreat grandmother Ann Goodacre was born in Bermondsey in 1777 which was still semi urban, semi rural, semi wasteground but was probably still considered London even before it became totally swallowed up by suburbia.

Ben

[Ken Boyce]

The London Boroughs were created in 1900 by the London Government Act of 1899 which created 28 metropolitan boroughs as sub-divisions of the new County of London (LCC was formed in 1889). They were Battersea, Bermondsey, Bethnal Green, Camberwell, Chelsea, Deptford, Finsbury, Fulham, Greenwich, Hackney, Hammersmith, Hampstead, Holborn, Islington, Kensington, Lambeth, Lewisham, Paddington, Poplar, Shoreditch, Southwark, St Marylebone, St Pancras, Stepney, Stoke Newington, Wandsworth, Westminster, Woolwich

The LCC was formed from parts of the old counties of Kent, Middlesex, and Surrey but did NOT include the City of London or I believe parts of Essex and I don't think any additions or changes were made until 1965
The above were Local Government Administrative Units and were nothing to do with the Civil Registration Districts and Sub-districts (and Census Enumeration Districts) which were under the jurisdiction of the Registrar General in Whitehall. Although most CRDs had similar geographical names as the LGUs just to confuse us expatriates they stayed mainly within the 1851 registration boundaries with some splitting and amalgamations taking place down the years as population densities dictated not the LCC I think the first interference with CRDs started c1965

Regards from Canada

[ChristineR]

This is not helped by the 'inaccuracy' of the coroner who recorded my GGrandmother's death (1960). On it my GGM's place of birth (1895) is recorded as Newham, London. BUT Newham didnt exist in the 1800's and West Ham was not in London it was in Essex.

As on any certificates, the information is supplied by another person, not the coroner or the registrar. The informant has given contemporary detail, and may not have even been aware of the historical origin.

Just sticking up for the coroner :)

[AnnB]

This is not helped by the 'inaccuracy' of the coroner who recorded my GGrandmother's death (1960). On it my GGM's place of birth (1895) is recorded as Newham, London. BUT Newham didnt exist in the 1800's and West Ham was not in London it was in Essex.


If my memory serves me correctly, on registering the death of a person born in East Ham, the Registrar looked up East Ham on a table to find out which 'modern' borough it was in and entered that borough - Newham - on the death certificate. It never crossed my mind to ask why!

Best wishes
Ann

[Ken Boyce]

Newham London Registration District was not formed until 1 Jan 1968 out of parts of East and West Ham Essex RDs So it is not possible to have had a B M or D registered at Newham London in 1960 Could it be a certified Copy of an entry from an older West/East Ham Register issued from the Newham London District Office

Curious in Canada

[Who.is.gladys?]

My thoughts exactly Ken, If before 1968 West Ham was still a county borough of Essex and Newham did not exist, how could the Coroner refer to it. None of my maternal family ever referred to the area as Newham. So it is unlikely to have been them who referred to it to the coroner.

With reference to the informer having the information, my mother has discovered my Grandmothers death certificate now and that gives her place of birth as Canning Town, Newham. We know it was not us, but the nursing home, who informed the coroners office so that would answer why hers is so incorrect.

Thank you all for your replies, it has made interesting and thought provoking reading for me.

Anna

[Ken Boyce]

I think the clue may lie in the use of the term coroner I had assumed that you were referring to the Civil Registration of Death I'm not familiar with the UK Coroner System but presumably the Coroner would have filled out the Death Cert possibly because of an autopsy and someone else would have registered the death so the Coroner could be using the local government or postal designations not the CRD designations. Perhaps someone could enlighten us

Regards