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charlie7
26-09-2008, 9:59 AM
My brother thinks we are doing really well on my mothers side of ancestry and has asked me to have a go at my dads side,as you can imagine the McDonald's in Glasgow are as common as the Jones' in Wales,at the moment my only info is
Robert William McDonald (my dad)born Jan 1931
his parents were Robert McDonald and Euphemia O'Neil
Robert's parents were William McDonald and Elizabeth Elder McShie
Euphemia's parent's were Daniel O'Neil and Annie Mitchell
Robert and Euphemia were Glasgowegians
My father told me that they went back generations born and bred Scottish,he also told me that we had Robert the Bruce in our ancestry.I have my reservations on this as my dad was a bit of a story teller so i am not really believing it,he also told me we had a Duke in the family this too was probably one of his tales but i would like to see how far back i can get and whether there is any truth to his stories, i would like some help with this challenge my brother set me.
Many thanks
Fiona

Sue Mackay
26-09-2008, 11:21 AM
OK, to get anywhere with Scottish research you have to register with Scotlandspeople and buy some credits, which enables you to download BMD certificates.

To help you narrow down your search, I think you may find that the name you want is McGHIE and not McSHIE

The IGI has the marriage of Elizabeth Elder McGHIE to William McDONALD on 29th June 1899 in Glasgow. Getting the marriage certificate will confirm this and give more details. It will also confirm who William's parents were, including the maiden name of his mother - very important when dealing with a name like McDONALD in Scotland!

It also says she was born in Glasgow on 7 July 1874, the daughter of Arthur McGHIE and Susan ELDER, that she died on the 1st April 1944, and was buried in the Western Necropolis in Glasgow on 5 April 1944.

Sue Mackay
26-09-2008, 11:35 AM
1871 Census: Glasgow Barony; ED: 45; Page: 7

44 Bishop Street

Arthur McGEE Head 30 Ship Rigger born Ireland
Susan McGEE Wife 29 born Glasgow
Susan McGEE Dau 3 born Glasgow
Jane ELDER Mother in Law 64 born Irvine

Sue Mackay
26-09-2008, 11:55 AM
Not quite sure what to make of this - it is taken from the Ancestry index and may be clearer if you look at the original image on Scotlandspeople. Looks as though Jane Elder might have re-married, but then why is Susan given the name ARMOUR as well?

1881 Census: Parish: Glasgow Barony; ED: 47; Page: 12

17 B Perth Street

Jane ARMOUR Head 77 Winder born Irvine
Susan Elder ARMOUR daughter 40 Housekeeper born Glasgow
Arthur McGEE boarder 40 Sailor born Ireland
Mary McGEE granddaughter 9 Scholar b Glasgow
Elizabeth McGEE granddaughter 6 Scholar b Glasgow
Agnes McGEE granddaughter 3 b Glasgow
Edward McGEE grandson 3 months b Glasgow
William McGEE grandson 3 months b Glasgow

charlie7
26-09-2008, 8:51 PM
had to think about the ARMOUR name for a bit and came up withthis see if you think it could be so:
Maybe ARMOUR is jane's surname,in 1871 they were all living in Arthur's house where he was head, in 1881 they were all living in Jane's house,maybe the Elder means that they are married but living in the house of in-laws.Does this make sense to you?
I also took another look at the certificate and you were right about it being McGhie as the registrars name was Simpson and his S was totally different to what i thought was McShie and indeed does look like a G.
Thanks for that info, I am going to get William and Elizabeth's marriage certificate,but i shall do that by post.
I think my dad would turn in his grave if he knew he had Irish blood in him,he was so sure he was Scottish through and through

Lesley Robertson
27-09-2008, 9:04 AM
had to think about the ARMOUR name for a bit and came up withthis see if you think it could be so:
Maybe ARMOUR is jane's surname,in 1871 they were all living in Arthur's house where he was head, in 1881 they were all living in Jane's house,maybe the Elder means that they are married but living in the house of in-laws.Does this make sense to you?


It's her middle name - sometimes written as Alder. May be her mother' surname, or that of one of her grandmothers.
Lesley

Sue Mackay
27-09-2008, 9:19 AM
It's her middle name - sometimes written as Alder. May be her mother' surname, or that of one of her grandmothers.
Lesley

No. ELDER was Susan's surname when she married Arthur McGHIE, and in 1871 she is down as Susan McGEE with Jane ELDER (her mother) living in the same house. In 1881 Susan is still with Arthur and the kids and Jane, but this time Jane is called Jane ARMOUR and the index has Susan down as Susan Elder ARMOUR. Not having seen the original image, it may be as simple as a ditto mark appearing in error. That's what made me think Jane might have re-married.

Lesley Robertson
27-09-2008, 10:03 AM
No. ELDER was Susan's surname when she married Arthur McGHIE, and in 1871 she is down as Susan McGEE with Jane ELDER (her mother) living in the same house. In 1881 Susan is still with Arthur and the kids and Jane, but this time Jane is called Jane ARMOUR and the index has Susan down as Susan Elder ARMOUR. Not having seen the original image, it may be as simple as a ditto mark appearing in error. That's what made me think Jane might have re-married.


Hopefully, the death cert would provide a bit of clarity, then. She should be indexed under all three names (assuming they were all known to the informant!)
Lesley

charlie7
27-09-2008, 1:00 PM
I have Elizabeth Elder McDonald maiden name McGhie hand written on the cert. that i have.
On Scotlands people i read that there are certain ways that they named their children ie;
1st son after father's father
2nd son after mother's father
3rd son after father
and the same with the daughters,
maybe they had a daughter called Susan that died early and to denote one Susan from another they put the Elder, in same with Elizabeth denoting that she was the mother.Its a pity i have no Scottish relations left alive to ask

charlie7
27-09-2008, 1:14 PM
I've just phoned a friend who is Glasgow born and bred and asked him about the Elder, he tells me that if i get further back in my tree i will find the surname Elder, it is something that the females give to their daughters to keep them in their family tree,so Elder is a surname of a grandmother somewhere along the line,they don't do this in the boys though just in the girls,hope this helps you as much as it has made understand,he also told me that the way they do give the forenames to the children are correct.

Deano
28-09-2008, 12:23 PM
Hello Fiona,

I think you will find that Susan's, mothers maiden name was Jean/Jane Armour.

Jean Armour, married John Elder, 12/Feb/1830. Barony, Lanark.

Here are the family on the 1841. census Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Kirkfield.
Address, Main Street,

Elder John, M. age 50 years, Cotton Hand Loom Weaver, born Lanarkshire,
Elder Jane, F. age 35 years, born Outside Census County,
Elder John, M. age 10 years, born Lanarkshire,
Elder Robert, M. age 3 years, born Lanarkshire,
Elder Susan, F. age 3 Months, born Lanarkshire,
Wadins John, M. age 60 years, Pauper, born Lanarkshire.

The 1841. census does not give relationships, but Susan's, age is correct going by the other census provided previously, also her mother Jane, age is also consistent with the previous census.

The mother Jane, is also born outside Lanarkshire, and as the name Armour, is very prominent in Ayrshire, this also points to the fact that in other census she is down as born in Ayrshire.

Regards,
Jonn.

Deano
28-09-2008, 1:05 PM
Hello Fiona,

Jane Armour, on the 1881 census is down as a Widow, aged 17 years of age, and head of household, there is no doubt this is the wrong age and she should however be about 77 years of age.

However i think this lady died the same year aged 59 years, in Glasgow, City/Lanark, Anderson, District, Gros Data, 644/10 0316. under the names Jane Armour Elder. i also think her age is well out at 59 years.

The reason i think this is your Jane Armour Elder, the Gross Data, Number of 644/10. is the same Gross Data, as is given for the census address she is staying at in 1881. ie 644/10. which is the registration number for Anderson 1875. until 1906.

I would be astonished if there were two ladies in the exact area at the same time with the names Jane Armour Elder, so i would suggest you purchase this death extract which should provide her parents names and her husbands name, provided the person who registered the death new these details, i would imagine that as she was living with her daughter at this time then she should know the details.

Regards,
Jonn.

charlie7
28-09-2008, 8:36 PM
thankyou for that info deano,the cert i have has "Anderston in the burgh of Glasgow" on it do you think that Anderston and Anderson are the same place
Fiona

Deano
29-09-2008, 8:06 AM
Hello Fiona,

Yes they are the same place, that was a slip of the finger on my post it should have read Anderston.

Regards,
Jonn.