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Joanna1
17-09-2008, 2:36 PM
Dear fellow members,

I am not sure if this is the right thread to be contacting. If not, please could someone possibly forward it on. Thank you.

Is there anyone who can please tell me about John Crowley Weaver, [/B]becoming a clergyman, I wonder if he was ordained in Wolverhampton?. John Crowley Weaver, brother James Homer Weaver was in partnership in firm Crowley & Co. Wolverhampton.

John Weaver Crowley admitted in Trinity College Oxford 1863. He became a church of England clergyman, and between 1877 and 1886 was the Vicar of Kemplay in Gloucestershire. I want to try and find out where he came from. I think the family came from Wolverhampton

The firm 'Crowley & Co, Crowley Leyland, and Hicklin, Crescent wharf, load fly boats to Bristol, Coventry, Derby, Gainsborough, Hull, Liverpool, London, Manchester, and Oxford.—N.B. Wine and spirits are conveyed in boats secured by locks.

One of our members kindly found reference to Crowley firm back to 1818 I am trying to see where the family came from. If Crowley Weaver were the founders [/B]of Common,' Carriers, and Railway, Agent’s, under, the respective firms of Crowley & Co., and Crowley, Bicklinr 'and Co.,? Big question.

Do hope someone can help me.

Best wishes

Joanna

bumblebee
17-09-2008, 3:28 PM
The newspapers have this,

Dec 24th 1867
Clerical Appointments
The Rev. John Crowley Weaver BA of Trinity College Oxford, to Wantage, on the Nomination of the Rev. William Butler.



Saturday, Dec 26th 1868
At an Ordination held by the Bishop of Oxford, in the Cathedral of Oxford, on Sunday Last...........(Priests) John Crowley Weaver, BA Trinity College Oxford,


March 9th 1867
Oxford University Rifle Volunteer Corps - John Crowley Weaver Esq, to be Lieutenant

6th June 1877
Appointments
Rev. John Crowley Weaver, Vicar of Kempley, Patron the Earl of Beauchamp.


Saturday June 10th 1882
May 22?nd Deaths,
James Homer Weaver, second son of the late James William Weaver of Oaken?, near Wolverhampton. aged 35.

Feb 8th 1879
Liquidation on Tuesday next.
James Homer Weaver late of Tottenhall, Wolverhampton, a portion of the effects.......................then it goes onto give individual details of furniture etc.

Jan 15th 1886
Death Notice
Rev, John Crowley Weaver, 11th Jan at Kempley Vicarage, aged 41

22nd October 1869
Sparrow - Weaver Marriage.
At Lytham Lancashire, Mr John William Sparrow of Penn Staffordshire to Mary daughter of the late Mr James William Weaver of Oaken Staffordshire. Oct 19th

Bumblebee

Joanna1
18-09-2008, 10:52 AM
You kindly have found out that the family must originated come from Wolverhampton. The names are Oakham and Tenttenhall are in Wolverhampton.

The next Homer Weaver is John Reginald HW would you mind seeing if there is anything on any Census it probably won’t be in Wolverhampton but Oxford, but he may have gone back to his roots 1954: he had a career at Trinity College 1938 and 1954 The President of Trinity College was John Reginald Homer Weaver, who had been one of the College's history tutors since 1913. How am I related to this chap I wonder who’s son is he was, was he married?

You found Jonh Reginald Homer Weaver's Grandfather was The Rev. John Crowley Weaver who I understand was my great grand father 'James Homer Weaver' Brother. Is it correct that James Homer Weaver died Saturday June 10th 1882 age 35? If so, my grandfather was one yrs old. My great Grandfather JHW left five children. I wonder if there was an Obituary do you know what yr James Homer Weaver was married and year he was born? Sorry to ask so much of you. Just so interesting I have no knowledge of how to check myself.

This Cencus1881 James H Weaver, 33; Emily living at Raglan House, Bedminster (RG11 2451/19/31).

RG11 2451/19
Raglan House, Bedminster, Somerset

In a news paper annoucment for his BankrupcyJames Homer Weaver address is: The Elms, WARGS, Tenttenhall Nr Wolverhampton is there anything in a Census of this address maybe a business address? or was he living here?


Be interesting to find out if Crowley where the founder’s from their family as you see: John Crowley Weaver. name is there. The company started 1818 but do not know how to find out would there be something in the local news paper about this.

JHW wife Emily Florence nee FowkeI think died Nov 28th 1928 I think they were residing at: 19 West Park, Westbury on Trim, Bristol (RG12 1987/103/12). Would you mind checking who was in the house 1916 or the name of the house as to where Emily Homer Weaver was living 1916 1916 the year my Grandfather Humphrey Weaver was killed in Mesopotamia. I am trying to trace obituary on Humphrey Weaver.


Bumblebee thank you so so much again for your time and efforts. If you do have time and don’t mind; anything you find would be so great. All the best to you Joanna

Joanna1
18-09-2008, 10:59 AM
22nd October 1869
Sparrow - Weaver Marriage.
At Lytham Lancashire, Mr John William Sparrow of Penn Staffordshire to Mary daughter of the late Mr James William Weaver of Oaken Staffordshire. Oct 19th

Bumblebee[/QUOTE]

As you found: James William Weaver must have had a daughter Mary, and also two sons John Reginald and James Homer Weaver Is there anyway of checking on a Cencus – sorry I don’t like asking too much but you are so clever and on the thread and found out so much.

The daughter of late James William Weaver Mary married John William Sparrow at Lytham Lancashire, (we have three county’s here)? Is this where the marriage took place?

Mary Homer Weaver married into the Sparrow family who invented the Steam Train that pumped water out of mines. William Hanbury Sparrow (this maybe Mary's daughter of JHWhusband) called a meeting in Wolverhampton to propose making a railway for carrying iron; this was the origin of the London & North Western Railway. His name heads the list of subscribers to the railway and he was therefore the first shareholder. The Sparrows are of Beckminster and Penn Court Wovrhampton. Beckminster House still stand and is a Wolverhamtons busy Teachers Centre. The family built the House and played a part in development of Penn and Bilston. A second brach was living at Penn Court Penn Rd. Pen Court was the home of Willaim Hanbury Sparrow at the time the servey was done 1844. Sparrows had come from Audley Noth Saffs. 1750 attracted by oppertunities in the South Staffordshire coal and iron trades.

A decendent William Hanbury Sparrow of Pattingham, born 1st March 1764, married Mary, daughter of Thomas Hanbury of Birmingham and from his union.

There is a catch as from what I know, this William (I think it was this William as there are so many in the Sparrow famiilywas a 'Brown' he was made to change his name by Deed Poll to inherit Albrighton Hall Shrewsbury from one of the Sparrow family. He married Amy Baldwin, a first cousin of Standley Baldwin later three times Prime Minister.

I am related to this Sparrow family. I understood that my great Grandfather James Homer Weaver wife Emily Florance Nee Fowke - that it was her grandfather who was a Sparrow. My mind can't cope with the tracing and research. It's a puzzel, but it's fun to try and find out who's who and where one fits etc. I wonder why Homer and Crowley were dropped from Weaver (where do these names come from and fit in)?

Do we know what Jame Willaim Weaver did for a living and where he lived?

All the best and thank you so much again any comments welcome. Regards Joanna

Joanna1
18-09-2008, 12:33 PM
The newspapers have this,

Dec 24th 1867
Clerical Appointments
The Rev. John Crowley Weaver BA of Trinity College Oxford, to Wantage, on the Nomination of the Rev. William Butler.



Saturday, Dec 26th 1868
At an Ordination held by the Bishop of Oxford, in the Cathedral of Oxford, on Sunday Last...........(Priests) John Crowley Weaver, BA Trinity College Oxford,


March 9th 1867


Oxford University Rifle Volunteer Corps - John Crowley Weaver Esq, to be Lieutenant

6th June 1877
Appointments
Rev. John Crowley Weaver, Vicar of Kempley, Patron the Earl of Beauchamp.


Saturday June 10th 1882
May 22?nd Deaths,
James Homer Weaver, second son of the late James William Weaver of Oaken?, near Wolverhampton. aged 35.

Feb 8th 1879
Liquidation on Tuesday next.
James Homer Weaver late of Tottenhall, Wolverhampton, a portion of the effects.......................then it goes onto give individual details of furniture etc.

Jan 15th 1886
Death Notice
Rev, John Crowley Weaver, 11th Jan at Kempley Vicarage, aged 41

22nd October 1869
Sparrow - Weaver Marriage.
At Lytham Lancashire, Mr John William Sparrow of Penn Staffordshire to Mary daughter of the late Mr James William Weaver of Oaken Staffordshire. Oct 19th

Bumblebee

These are the correct names Oakham and Tenttenhall are in Wolverhampton.

thank you Joanna

bumblebee
18-09-2008, 3:36 PM
Hi Joanna

Just reading through your posts, will answer shortly.

Bumblebee

bumblebee
18-09-2008, 3:44 PM
Regarding John Reginald Homer Weaver - these dates are too late for the census returns. (1901 is currently the latest available)

Just to clarify - Saturday June 10th 1882 (date of paper) May 29nd (date of) Deaths,
James Homer Weaver, second son of the late James William Weaver of Oaken?, near Wolverhampton. aged 35. - So he died (according to the paper) on May 29nd 1882.

Again, I don't have the facilities to check for addresses in 1916 as this is past the last available census.


This looks like the marriage reference for James Homer Weaver - James Homer Weaver, 1873 Q4 Wolverhampton, 6b 949 Emily Florence Fowke on same page.

This looks like the birth reference for James Homer Weaver - James Homer Weaver, 1846, Q3 Wolverhampton, 17 306

There is this christening record for an Oswald James Weaver, 9 Jun 1875, at Tettenhall, Staffordshire, Father, James Homer Weaver. Mother Emily Florence


Bumblebee

bumblebee
18-09-2008, 4:01 PM
This is the 1851 census and Father James William Weaver gives his place of birth as Warwickshire, Birmingham.

1851
Tettenhall, Staffordshire
Tettenhall Road? (Wood)

Ann Crawley 35 Visitor born Wolverhampton
Sarah Heyman 30 Servant
Frances Smith 27 Servant
Mary Ann Smith 22 Servant
Ann Shaw Sparrow 24 Visitor born Wolverhampton
Charles Leatham Weaver 3 Son born Wolverhampton,
James Homer Weaver 4 Son born Wolverhampton
James William Weaver 35 Head, Carrier and Wharfinger. Born Birmingham.
John Crawley Weaver 6 Son born Wolverhampton
Mary Weaver 35 Wife, born Wolverhampton

Piece: 2017; Folio: 105; Page: 24

bumblebee
18-09-2008, 4:06 PM
Interestingly enough in 1881 there is this regarding the address you were interested in

Tettenhall, Staffordshire

18 The Wargs The Elms

John Dean 24 Servant
Harriet Jones 35 Servant
Mary Rawlings 21 Servant
........Elizabeth Homer Rutter 34 Wife, born Wolverhampton
........Richard Woodd Rutter 37 Head, Solicitor in Practice. born Wolverhampton

Class: RG11; Piece: 2789; Folio: 24; Page: 20


On September 30th 1887, the Will of John Simpson Rutter of the Cedars, Richmond Surrey, formerly of Wolverhampton, left a £3,000 legacy to Elizabeth Homer Rutter wife of his deceased son Richard Woodd Rutter. (lots of others mentioned in the Will)

Bumblebee

bumblebee
18-09-2008, 4:20 PM
Also as you say they all have links with the GWR - do you have copies of the following, they can be ordered from SOG.

James William WEAVER Death 3 Mar 1869 Codsall, Staffordshire,
Rev John Crowley WEAVER Executor (Son) 21 Apr 1869 Wantage, Berkshire,
Charles Leatham WEAVER Executor (Son) 21 Apr 1869 Albrighton, Shropshire,
James Horner (Homer?) WEAVER Executor (Son) 21 Apr 1869 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire,
John Leatham CROWLEY Executor 21 Apr 1869 Newport, Staffordshire,
Alexr HEMSLEY Recipient 18 May 1869


James Homer WEAVER Death 1 Jun 1882 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, (different date to that given in paper - probably his death certificate would clarify)
James Homer WEAVER Joint Holder 1 Jun 1882
W DENT Declaration 27 Nov 1882
Rev John Crowley WEAVER Executor 25 Nov 1882 Kempley, Gloucestershire,
Charles Leatham WEAVER Executor 25 Nov 1882


John Crowley WEAVER Death 15 Jan 1886 Kempley, Gloucestershire,
D E NORTON Declaration 21 Jan 1886
Rev Frederick William WEAVER Executor 15 Jan 1886 Evercreech, Somersetshire, (this chap is on the clergy list for 1896, MA Oxford 1878 Milton Clevedon, Evercreech)




And............Richard Woodd Rutter of the 1881 census crops up in GWR also

John FORD Death 21 Sep 1875 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, ....................
..................Richard Woodd RUTTER Declaration 15 Jan 1876

Elizabeth MOUNTFORT Death 9 Oct 1865 Lichfield, Staffordshire,...........
...................Richard Wood RUTTER Declaration 5 Oct 1872

Bumblebee

bumblebee
18-09-2008, 4:48 PM
James William Weaver on the 1861 census - note the name of the House, the death notice was correct with Oaken, it was not a mistake (as in should be Oakham) it is the name of his house..

1861
Codsall, Staffordshire
Oaken House..

Ann Maria Weaver 18 Daughter
Charles Leatham Weaver 13 Son
Fredrick Wm Weaver 9 Son
James William Weaver 45 Carrier and Railway Agent born Birmingham.
Mary Weaver 45 Wife
Mary Weaver 20 Daughter

Piece: 1984; Folio: 141; Page: 9

bumblebee
18-09-2008, 5:49 PM
Humphrey Weavers christening - 4 Sep 1881, Bristol, Father James Homer Weaver. Mother Emily Florence.

Bumblebee

bumblebee
18-09-2008, 7:28 PM
There is a mention of a Will in a paper dated November 12th 1930 for a Mrs Ann Maria Baxter, widow of the Rev Henry Fleming Baxter, daughter of the late James William Weaver.

Bumblebee

Joanna1
19-09-2008, 4:58 AM
Hi Joanna

Just reading through your posts, will answer shortly.

Bumblebee

Thank you. Joanna

bumblebee
19-09-2008, 2:49 PM
Your welcome Joanna, I hope it is of some use to you. A very interesting family I must say.

Bumblebee

Joanna1
19-09-2008, 3:15 PM
James William Weaver on the 1861 census - note the name of the House, the death notice was correct with Oaken, it was not a mistake (as in should be Oakham) it is the name of his house..

1861
Codsall, Staffordshire
Oaken House..

Ann Maria Weaver 18 Daughter
Charles Leatham Weaver 13 Son
Fredrick Wm Weaver 9 Son
James William Weaver 45 Carrier and Railway Agent born Birmingham.
Mary Weaver 45 Wife
Mary Weaver 20 Daughter

Piece: 1984; Folio: 141; Page: 9

Bumblebee my goodness wow thank you very much, take a look on website Wolverhampton History there is a picture of Oaken House it is superb. But no mention of a Weaver living there but I think a Sparrow? Mary married William Sparrow a very well to do family who invented the Steam Train to pump water out of mines and who laid the London North West RLW . My g- great grandfather James William Weaver must have been a very wealthy man. I wonder if 'Crowley' firm was founded by a Weaver. Hence James William Weaver/s brother/s who's name is: John Crowley Weaver, who was a clergyman. Is it possible to find out what James William Weaver/s father did and where they came from. I would love to follow the lead down the line to find out in your own time as I know how busy you are. You are quite amazing Bumblebee now I know why your name is Bumblebee. A big kiss to you thank you Joanna

Joanna1
19-09-2008, 3:39 PM
There is a mention of a Will in a paper dated November 12th 1930 for a Mrs Ann Maria Baxter, widow of the Rev Henry Fleming Baxter, daughter of the late James William Weaver.

Bumblebee

Do you know what the Will said of my G Great Aunt? I believe the Baxter family are well known too, but do not know anything about them She must have been in her 80's when she died. You are so clever. Joanna

Joanna1
19-09-2008, 3:55 PM
James William Weaver on the 1861 census - note the name of the House, the death notice was correct with Oaken, it was not a mistake (as in should be Oakham) it is the name of his house..

1861
Codsall, Staffordshire
Oaken House..

Ann Maria Weaver 18 Daughter
Charles Leatham Weaver 13 Son
Fredrick Wm Weaver 9 Son
James William Weaver 45 Carrier and Railway Agent born Birmingham.
Mary Weaver 45 Wife
Mary Weaver 20 Daughter

Piece: 1984; Folio: 141; Page: 9

Thank you Bumblebee I can see how hard you have worked you have done so much for me I will have to study what you have sent me now. Wonderful work well done! Joanna

Joanna1
19-09-2008, 4:09 PM
Humphrey Weavers christening - 4 Sep 1881, Bristol, Father James Homer Weaver. Mother Emily Florence.

Bumblebee


Bumblebee I have lost all the dates that you sent me where can I find them again of the family involved with the company I saw them once and now it seems to have gone from this thread what do I do to view them again? sorry to bothter you but I will need to study all it all. Joanna

bumblebee
19-09-2008, 6:14 PM
Hello Joanna

All the information is still there, on both pages of this thread. What dates do you mean?

I could not find anything specific about the Company although I had a look around.

Bumblebee

Joanna1
21-09-2008, 9:11 AM
Hello Joanna

All the information is still there, on both pages of this thread. What dates do you mean?

I could not find anything specific about the Company although I had a look around.

Bumblebee

You really are too kind Bumblebee I found all you kindly researched for me. Now priting it all off to study. Many many thanks again Joanna

Joanna1
22-09-2008, 5:54 AM
[QUOTE=bumblebee;197605]The newspapers have this,

Morning Bumblebee,

If you can help more and are interested to help me follow through a bit this would be wonderful. But if you get board, or if gets too much please say. Maybe some other members would be kind enough to help on some of the areas.

You kindly found out this below:


Feb 8th 1879
Liquidation on Tuesday next.
James Homer Weaver late of Tottenhall, Wolverhampton, a portion of the effects.......................then it goes onto give individual details of furniture etc.

Did it say this was the Liquidation of WharlfingersCarriers? What was the furniture listed etc.
Would love to find out if it was the Weaver family who founded WharlfingersCarriers. Thanks if there is any follow up with this. Joanna

Joanna1
22-09-2008, 7:50 AM
[QUOTE=bumblebee;197605]The newspapers have this,






22nd October 1869
Sparrow - Weaver Marriage.
At Lytham Lancashire, Mr John William Sparrow of Penn Staffordshire to Mary daughter of the late Mr James William Weaver of Oaken Staffordshire. Oct 19th

Hi Bumblebee,

This marriage above is important , it is 'one' connection into the Sparrow family; there is at least one or two others by name of Fowke. The Fowke family Thomas Henry Fowke (of Wolverhampton) married Emma Sparrow around 1830

Also James Homer Weaver (Humphrey/s father) married Emily Florence who’s father was Dr. Fowke.

How can we find out where these marriages took place, was it at Lytham Lancashire, or Penn Staff or Oaken Staff? I am sure when we find out - the local paper will have a list of guests and presents etc. ( a bit confusing as in the 1851 census piece:2017; folio:105;page:24 there is no Mary Weaverat that address except for his wife Mary and children James Homer 4 my great grandfather being one. I wonder how this above can be a wedding of one of his daughters? Jan1869

I know there is a 'William' mentioned in family notes I have, he had a different sir name he came into the picture; and had to change his name by Deed Poll when he inherited Albrighton Hall it was a condition made by G grandmother Fowke that he adopted the name to Sparrow. He married Amy Baldwin, a first cousin of Stanley Baldwin (later three times prime minister).

The Sparrow family dwelt at Audley (I think Albrighton Hall) for eight generations at least.

Thomas Sparrow was followed by five John Sparrows

Thomas The fifth John has been followed by six William Sparrow/s.

There were three earlier William Sparrows: William Sparrow of AUDLEY (B 1726) or William Sparrow of Patting was the first man in South Staffordshire who erected a steam engine for pumping out of mines.

William Hanbury Sparrow was a personal friend of George Stephenson, of whom there is a signed engraving at Albrighton Hall.

William Hanbury Sparrow called a meeting in Wolverhampton to propose a rail way for carrying Irion; this was the origin of the London & North West RLY. His name heads the list of subscribers to the railway and he was therefore the first share holder.

William Hanbury Sparrow is the Father or grandfather (I believe of my) G Grandmother Fowke.

Is there any way you can help find out this information? Please ask me more questions if you are puzzeled. I have inherited notes it is a great puzzle!

Does the marriage reference for James Homer Weaver, 1873 Q4 Wolverhampton, 6b 949 Emily Florence say more info' re: Dr. Fowke her father? (It is either him or his father who was a famus sergeon from Kings St Wolverhampton.[/B]I wonder if Wharlfingers Weaver and Sparrow were involved as families in the railway - must have met this way.

Can I leave it with you Bumblebee no rush. All the best Joanna

bumblebee
22-09-2008, 1:27 PM
Hi Joanna1

The liquidation article just says (Birmingham Daily Post, Saturday, February 8, 1879)

In Liquidation, Re- James Homer Weaver late of Tottenhall, Wolverhampton, a portion of the effects that have been warehoused at Bishop? & Sons Depositary...Costly Worcester China Dessert Service etc...it then lists quite a lot of beautiful sounding household effects.

No mention of the actual name of his business.

Cannot find any mention of Wharfingers Carriers.

Bumblebee

bumblebee
22-09-2008, 1:42 PM
Regarding Mary Weaver (marriage to Sparrow)

There is a Mary on the 1861 census - she could have been elsewhere in 1851.

1851 census.

Sarah Bence 26
Arthur Glover 27
Frances Smith 37
Emma Taylor 23
Eliza Warrender 64
Ann Maria Weaver 18
Charles Leatham Weaver 13
Fredrick Wm Weaver 9
James William Weaver 45
Mary Weaver 45
................Mary Weaver 20 Daughter. born Worcestershire

Class: RG9; Piece: 1984; Folio: 141; Page: 9




.....................................and in fact I would say this is her in 1851 having been sent away to school.

1851, Tettenhall. Staffordshire

Mary Weaver, age 10 born 1841, Pupil, born: Worcester,

I cannot see a name for the school as such, there are only about 11 pupils so it looks like a small private exclusive school run by a lady annuitant called Ann Wright.

Bumblebee

bumblebee
22-09-2008, 2:09 PM
The Sparrow - Weaver marriage says this.

From the paper Liverpool Mercury, Friday, October 22, 1869

October 19th - At the parish church, Lytham, by the Rev. R B Robinson, MA, John William Sparrow, Esq, of Beckminster House, Penn, Staffordshire, to Mary eldest daughter of the the late James William Weaver Esq, of Oaken, Staffordshire.

So it did take place at the Parish Church in Lytham.

Bumblebee

bumblebee
22-09-2008, 2:18 PM
You asked .........."Does the marriage reference for James Homer Weaver, 1873 Q4 Wolverhampton, 6b 949 Emily Florence say more info' re: Dr. Fowke her father?"

The marriage reference does not contain details as it is just the reference which enables you to purchase the marriage certificate for £7 from the GRO.


This could be the 1851 census for Emily Florence (Fowke) with her father

King Street, Wolverhampton Eastern.

Maria Berks 15 Servant
Elizabeth Fisher 20 Servant
Emily F Fowke 1 Daughter
Emma Fowke 37 Wife
Isabel E Fowke 9 Mo Daughter
..........Thomas H Fowke 47 Head, born Wolverhampton, Surgeon MRCLL? LAC?
Thos W H Fowke 3 Son
Hannah Griffith 30 Servant
Frederick Harrison 17 Servant
Sarah Jones 13 Servant
Josh H Stormont 22 Surgeon Assistant

HO107; Piece: 2019; Folio: 35; Page: 38


Bumblebee

bumblebee
22-09-2008, 2:47 PM
This is the 1871 census for the Sparrows in Beckminster House.

Upper Penn

Issac S Sparrow 3 months
John W Sparrow 57 Iron Master, born Wolverhampton
Mary Sparrow 30
+ a variety of servants.

Bumblebee

bumblebee
22-09-2008, 2:53 PM
In a paper dated Tuesday June 25th 1867, John William Sparrow, ironmaster of Beckminster House is executor together with a Benjamin Hicklin in the Will of one Charles Frederick Sparrow, Solicitor, late of Wolverhampton, who died on the 30th May.

Bumblebee

bumblebee
22-09-2008, 3:04 PM
Albrighton Hall
Paper dated Thursday September 28th 1882
There is Creditors Announcment regarding the Will of a William Mander Sparrow of Albrighton Hall, who died on 9th February 1881. Then a mention of a William Arthur Brown then of Penn fields and now of Albrighton Hall and who has in pursuance of her Majesty's Royal Licence assumed the name of Sparrow.

Bumblebee

Joanna1
22-09-2008, 3:46 PM
You asked .........."Does the marriage reference for James Homer Weaver, 1873 Q4 Wolverhampton, 6b 949 Emily Florence say more info' re: Dr. Fowke her father?"

The marriage reference does not contain details as it is just the reference which enables you to purchase the marriage certificate for £7 from the GRO.


This could be the 1851 census for Emily Florence (Fowke) with her father

King Street, Wolverhampton Eastern.

Maria Berks 15 Servant
Elizabeth Fisher 20 Servant
Emily F Fowke 1 Daughter
Emma Fowke 37 Wife
Isabel E Fowke 9 Mo Daughter
..........Thomas H Fowke 47 Head, born Wolverhampton, Surgeon MRCLL? LAC?
Thos W H Fowke 3 Son
Hannah Griffith 30 Servant
Frederick Harrison 17 Servant
Sarah Jones 13 Servant
Josh H Stormont 22 Surgeon Assistant

HO107; Piece: 2019; Folio: 35; Page: 38


Bumblebee
My goodness Bumblebee you hit Jackpot every time well done, if it was a competition you would win! A* thank you so much. I feel all the same I need to apologise for giving you so much trouble you are brilliant at genealogy to me it is so confusing. It looks like eleven people living at this Kings Street with all servants’ student children. You dot have to do anything with below but would like your advice.

What would you suggest I purchase to move forward with this research from the Post Office what would be interesting is to see how I am directly related to the family Sparrow who made the London North west Rail way? It says in notes it is grand mother Fowke’s father could this be right? if so it would be my ggg grand father. When it says grandmother Fowke’s father this must be Emily Florence father who died Jan 24th 1867 his wife Sarah Elizabeth Sparrow died aug 28th 1867 Golly I am really not sure Bumblebee as there are many Sparrows with the same name and so many Dr. Fowke’s it seems. I don’t want to cause you unnecessary work, but still good to have the records straight.

I am James Homer Weaver’s great granddaughter, granddaughter of Humphrey Weaver, my father being Peter Humphrey Weaver born 1912 India. So I don’t know if below is helpful. All below but just to say I have a piece of paper that says Fowke family The first of this family Fowke in England is said to have been Sir …… Fowke; who came from Spain in the 15th Century and formed the family of Fowke of Brewood & Gurston in Staffordshire, member of this family migrated to different parts of the country including Ireland. The baronet direct line lay with Sir Fredrick Fowke, of Leicestershire, the present Baronet, the 4th, also Sir Frederic lives near Barnstable, born 1910 Probably dead by now wonder if there others? The Baronetcy was created in 1814.

My family notes say: 1883 Fowke William Hanbury 30 son (b 1883

1848 Thos (Will) not sure writing small. Hanbury b 1848: d. 1886, eldest son

1804 Thomas. Henry. Surgeon. W’hpton: b 1804 baptized 1804: d 1861

Thomas (& Mary)

A bit confusing as there is a line going up and down with arrow top and bottom, but says other sons & dbn:
Dorothy (BP 9 Dec 1802)
Anne (19 Feb 1802
John (BP. 30 BP 1800)

The arrow stretches down again From Thomas and Mary

1776 Thomas son (Bp. 14 ap. 1776)

John (anne) Born?

Eleanor BP. 6 Jan 1770

Above from Baptismal Register of St Peter Collegiate Church W’hampton.

Following, from ditto in Brewood Parish Church:

1689. ann; wife of Roger Fowke: died ?
1759 ann; daut of Wim (possibly stands for William) Fowke; died?
1759 John; son of do. Goodness knows what that stands for? Bp30 Nov
1767. Thomas. Fowke, of morville Salop again don’t know what the writing says. Married
1774. Joseph & Elizabeth, S & dau of Wim & ann Fowke Bp
1775 Elixebeth: D.
1776. Thos. Pealle: S of Will & ann. Bp

1777 ann. D of Richard & Sarah BP
1778 Elizabeth da. of Wim Fowke D 10 nov
1778 Joseph D of do. D. 19 Nov

The only connection I can see is on another piece of paper at the top it has Thomas William Hanbury Fowke:
Eldest son of Thomas Henry Fowke, surgeon, Wolverhampton and of Emma, daughter of William Hanbury Sparrow.

Born: 9th Feb 1848.
Married 14th Feb 1886; Buried at Penn (so this cant be the man that erected a steam engine for pumping water out of mines)?

HIho let me know what you think cheers Joanna

Joanna1
22-09-2008, 3:53 PM
Albrighton Hall
Paper dated Thursday September 28th 1882
There is Creditors Announcment regarding the Will of a William Mander Sparrow of Albrighton Hall, who died on 9th February 1881. Then a mention of a William Arthur Brown then of Penn fields and now of Albrighton Hall and who has in pursuance of her Majesty's Royal Licence assumed the name of Sparrow.

Bumblebee

Wow yes this is the one who changed his name I mentioned. Well done Joanna

Joanna1
22-09-2008, 4:13 PM
Wow yes this is the one who changed his name I mentioned. Well done Joanna

It would be very interesting to know the history on this possibly could William Mander Sparrow who ever he is have agreed to sell Albrighton Hall to Mr. Brown as it says in the history of notes that she would only sell if he changed his name to Sparrow. But this can't make him a true relation can it? This William Brown now Sparrow then married Amy Balwin a first cousin of Stanley Balwin PM. In my family notes it says when this William inherited Albrighton from one from one of the Sparrow family (Grandmother Fowke's family) it was a condition that he adopted the name Sparrow which he did by deed Poll.

Do think he inherited, or was it to save face of Sparrow by selling Albrighton Hall (as everything seemed to be going down hill fast financaily? All so sad when it seemed they had done so well in the RLW business. Still wonder if the two were connected Sparrow empire and Wharlfinger Carriers.

I have a note that says Reggie home was at Hartlebury, a village we pass on the way to Kidderminster. His mother was a sister of George Brown (our family lawyer in Worcester for many years) and of William Sparrow of Albrighton Hall Shrewsbury. There’s a load of names and info but not sure it really can lead down to us but possibly it does as where else have we/I come from!

All so interesting Joanna

bumblebee
22-09-2008, 9:18 PM
Hi Joanna

I think you have a few years worth of research in this family.

It is entirely upto you what certificates you purchase, you can work your way back from Humphrey Weaver (I have seen the newspaper report of his marriage) and prove each link.

You purchase certificates from the GRO - not the Post Office - follow this link, instructions are on the site.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/



William Mander Sparrow was the senior partner in the Osier Bed Iron Company, he also owned the Osier Bed Blast Furnaces and Collieries. In the later years his nephews, Mr W H Brown (William Arthur who changed his name to Sparrow?) and Mr T W H Fowke ran the business and they were also partners. He was a large shareholder in major railways, owned the large Albrighton estate and another estate near Bromyard. Arthur and Frederick Sparrow were his half-brothers.

The Osier Bed Works were purchased in 1848 by Mr Hanbury Sparrow, the grandfather of William Arthur Sparrow. Mr Hanbury Sparrow was joined in the business by his son William Mander Sparrow. When Mr Hanbury Sparrow died William Mander Sparrow admitted his nephews William Arthur Brown (who changed his name to Sparrow) and Thomas Fowke. In the early 1880's the company closed down due to bad trade and was later bought up by John Lysaghts galvanisers and black sheet company.

Bumblebee

bumblebee
22-09-2008, 9:48 PM
There are several references on the national archives to the families, have you searched that site. ie.......

Mortgage and mortgage transfer, Miss Charlotte Hartwright with the Hartwright family to Mrs. Brown. Also Henry Samuel Friend Esq. of Highbury Grove in London with Dr. Frederic Harry Haynes and George Frederick Sparrow Brown to Mrs Mary Jane Brown of Florence in Italy and William Arthur Sparrow of Albrighton Hall in Shropshire. And also Sparrow to George Baldwin Robinson of Wilden and Stanley Baldwin Worth of New Broad St. in London.

Bumblebee

Joanna1
23-09-2008, 2:06 PM
Hi Joanna

I think you have a few years worth of research in this family.

It is entirely upto you what certificates you purchase, you can work your way back from Humphrey Weaver (I have seen the newspaper report of his marriage) and prove each link.

You purchase certificates from the GRO - not the Post Office - follow this link, instructions are on the site.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/



William Mander Sparrow was the senior partner in the Osier Bed Iron Company, he also owned the Osier Bed Blast Furnaces and Collieries. In the later years his nephews, Mr W H Brown (William Arthur who changed his name to Sparrow?) and Mr T W H Fowke ran the business and they were also partners. He was a large shareholder in major railways, owned the large Albrighton estate and another estate near Bromyard. Arthur and Frederick Sparrow were his half-brothers.

The Osier Bed Works were purchased in 1848 by Mr Hanbury Sparrow, the grandfather of William Arthur Sparrow. Mr Hanbury Sparrow was joined in the business by his son William Mander Sparrow. When Mr Hanbury Sparrow died William Mander Sparrow admitted his nephews William Arthur Brown (who changed his name to Sparrow) and Thomas Fowke. In the early 1880's the company closed down due to bad trade and was later bought up by John Lysaghts galvanisers and black sheet company.

Bumblebee

How do you do it all so quicky Bumblebee - what a mind you have I can hardly beleive what you have found out! Again thank you so very much. Did you see my new thread in the India forum do hope someone will be able to help me there like you have here.
All the best for now Joanna|hug|

Joanna1
23-09-2008, 3:02 PM
There are several references on the national archives to the families, have you searched that site. ie.......

Mortgage and mortgage transfer, Miss Charlotte Hartwright with the Hartwright family to Mrs. Brown. Also Henry Samuel Friend Esq. of Highbury Grove in London with Dr. Frederic Harry Haynes and George Frederick Sparrow Brown to Mrs Mary Jane Brown of Florence in Italy and William Arthur Sparrow of Albrighton Hall in Shropshire. And also Sparrow to George Baldwin Robinson of Wilden and Stanley Baldwin Worth of New Broad St. in London.

Bumblebee

No I haven't Bumblebee, I would probably get lost I really haven't a clue what to do but learning all the time with I.T. Albrighton Hall in Shropshire would be interesting as this is where the Sparrows started from; with John Sparrow b. 22-9-1689 and Mary Booth of Audley.
The next was William Sparrow of Wolverhampton b. 2-8- 1727 (3 sons)
Next William Sparrow of Pattingham b. 1-3-1764 d. 15-2-1834
1. Wife Mary Hunbury of Brighton b. 17-1-1765
2. Wife Sarah Crowley of Norwood, Surrey d.11-11-1819
Then William Hanbury Sparrow of Pen Court.

Very interested too in names re: Brown which are new to me but connected if you are still sufficiently interested enough and have time to research them also Sparrow to George Baldwin Robinson of Wilden and Stanley Baldwin Worth of New Broad St. in London this would be fascinating. My mother said that my father had come from a very interesting family Internet was not here when my parents died early 90’s as it is today. They knew so little as his father Humphrey Weaver was killed in Mesopotamia when my father was three in WW1. I never knew my paternal grandmother she died the year I yr before I was born. During and after WW2 there was a lot of movement with families. All I had was the family tree with a few family notes, truly it is wonderful to have this accurate record Bumblebee of course I am delighted with any facts you find but 100% understand if you want to drop it here.

Much happiness and a big thank you Joanna:)

bumblebee
23-09-2008, 5:38 PM
Hi Joanna

I have decided from this point on to be known as 'Sparrow' - I would like to be a surrogate member of your tree as it is so much more interesting than my own.

My lot did visit the 'big' houses, but usually in the middle of the night whence they left with more than they arrived with.......... - although this tendency did earn a couple of them a trip abroad to a destination NOT of their choice, usually Van Diemens Land...

When my husband (Lincoln Lad who posts on this forum) and I started family research it was prior to all that is available on the internet and it meant a trip to the particular archive or library. I cannot believe what can be found in three minutes that used to take a whole weekend away searching amongst dusty books.

I did see your other thread had a slight technical difficulty.........lol..

Googling around etc, there also seems to be a family of 'Phillips' who had something to do with Albrighton Hall, but I have not worked out yet how they come into it and whether they were just on the estate or in the Hall itself.

Crowley & Co, seems in the early days to have been Crowley, Hicklin, Batty & Co, and indeed a google will bring up many references to this firm, even an advertisement poster. Benjamin Hicklin seems to have been a driving force/major shareholder and there is a mention of his death in 1842 or 3. As there was a Benjamin Hicklin mentioned as an Executor in the Will of William Mander Sparrow? forget where I saw it, I presume he was a son/relation.

A Benjamin Hicklin seems to have also been the Mayor of Wolverhampton at some point.

I cannot seem to find any reference to who exactly started the firm, or a list of partners.

Sparrow formerly known as Bumblebee

bumblebee
23-09-2008, 5:46 PM
William Arthur Brown (Sparrow) who married Amy Ellen Baldwin -

13th August 1873, by special licence of his grace the Archbishop of Canterbury, at the Priory Church Great Malvern, William Arthur Brown of The Hollies, Penn near Wolverhampton married Amy Ellen Baldwin, eldest daughter of George Baldwin, of Merridale Grove Wolverhampton. Rev. Oswold M Holden MA BCL conducted the service assisted by the Rev. Brookwood Smith vicar of Great Malvern.

So William Arthur Brown married as a Brown but is using the name Sparrow by 1881.

Bumblebee

Joanna1
24-09-2008, 3:06 PM
Hi Sparrow,

I would be so delighted for you to be a surrogate member of my family tree you are the Sparrow researcher, Sparrow has made a great friends with a great Bumblebee. Welcome. Sorry not to get back sooner I have been trying since am the internets been down this is Africa.

It is so fascinating I think a book should be written any ideas? We could really do an Agatha Christie here all based of fact with what I know about the family to present day. It was all during the Industrial Revolution time; my family were connected, or interconnected either by business, marriage, or friendship all being entrepreneur’s. It is amazing that Stanley Baldwin came from Wolverhampton too; it is more than likely he was a great friend of my GG Grandfather James William Weaver.

What do you know about this?Sparrow to George Baldwin Robinson of Wilden and Stanley Baldwin Worth of New Broad St. in London . You cleverly found out. It looks as if this ‘William Brown’ now a Sparrow was in fact a relation (a lucky) Nephew of William Mander Sparrow. (With ‘Brown’ now ‘Sparrow’ who's nephew of a Sparrow by marrying SB first cousin (SB brother’s eldest daughter) keeps everything going nicely and in the picture of the main Sparrow family. It would be very interesting to see the wedding guest list! I am sure there would have been one printed in the local paper I expect a lot of Sparrow, Fowke and Weavers would have been guests at this splendid wedding.

What does it mean Mortgage and mortgage transfer to all those names you mention they must be all relations? It does look as if Baldwin also was tied up some how in business along the line with the RWL, or one of the other businesses?

I wonder if there any Baldwin’s around today I could be in touch with as they are family blood.
I am sure also that the eminent Dr. Thomas Fowkes was a great friend within the circle’s too with his daughter marrying the daughter of William Hanbury Sparrow. I believe Thomas and his brother John were partners having both also been to Edinburgh University.
Can we find out which of the Sparrow date actually produced the London NWRLW and which Sparrow invented the Train to pump water out of mines? I have made a guess.

Mind boggling The Weaver’s were marrying Sparrow's and Fowke’s way back, and with my GG Grandfather James William Weaver in ‘Carriers by Water’ and a RLW Agent.

All must have been great friends (do we know who James William [BWeaver [/B]married was it another name altogether nee Baxter, or was it a Sparrow too)? His daughter married a Sparrow and his son James Homer Weaver married Emily Florence Fowke who is also directly related to Sparrow family.

I think that eminent Dr. Thomas William Fowke was eldest son of Henry Thomas Henry Fowke Surgeon, Wolverhampton of Brewood Hall. All descendents of Roger Fowke who built Brewood Hall early 17th Century I am direct descendent down from all these people on the Fowke side.

Oaken Tattenhall Staffordshire I mistook for Oxley House on the Website but amazingly enough Oxley House was the home 1820-1825 of John Henry Sparrow! I can’t see him on my list of notes but he has to be. His wife Charlotte Sparrow Baptized five children at, Bushbury Church, all of Oxley. It seems they were the first family in Oxley House a small version of the White House taken in winter.

I have William Hanbury Sparrow b. 6.1.1789 m. 26.1.1811. I believe he married first Caroline Mander b. 19.10.1788 of Edgbaston, second wife Sarah Higgs Turton married 23.8.1824 so who is John Sparrow brother.

There is a Sparrow who was High Sheriff of Staffordshire of Penn Court(I believe in 1860)?

I have a note that William Sparrow of Pattingham Coal ….. master.b.1.3.1764 M. 2.5.? to Sarah daughter of John Crowley.

William Hanbury Sparrow was the Sparrow (I think)? to propose making a railway for carrying iron London & North West Railway who was the friend of George Stephenson. William Sparrow of Pattington b. 1.3.1764 d. 15.1834 was the first man in South Staffordshire to erect a steam engine for pumping water out of mines. ?

Names of the main Residents are: Penn Court, Ablbrighton Hall, Brewood Hall,

Would you like to come to Zanzibar? Mapenzi Beach Club we could make a Great Book what do you think I really think it would be tremendous? It is wonderful here have you my email address?

All the best Sparrow Joanna

bumblebee
26-09-2008, 12:12 AM
Hi Joanna

Yes, such a lot to research, so many names. I think there must be a book in this lot.

It does make interesting reading in the papers. Prior to the Osier Bed Company closing they were having trouble with flooding, extra pumps needed to be put in but the Company could only afford to do this if the men would work nine hour days and the men refused. Lots about strikes for better pay etc. I think they must have just cut their losses and closed the Company.

However much I would like to see Zanzibar (and it looks lovely in the link you gave) I have to travel back and forth to Dubai to see my husband (he is Lincoln Lad who lives in the United Arab Emirates) so I will have to save a trip to Zanzibar for the time being.....lol

Will have a look around and see what else can be found.

Sparrow formerly Bumblebee.

Joanna1
26-09-2008, 11:46 AM
Hi Joanna

Yes, such a lot to research, so many names. I think there must be a book in this lot.

It does make interesting reading in the papers. Prior to the Osier Bed Company closing they were having trouble with flooding, extra pumps needed to be put in but the Company could only afford to do this if the men would work nine hour days and the men refused. Lots about strikes for better pay etc. I think they must have just cut their losses and closed the Company.

However much I would like to see Zanzibar (and it looks lovely in the link you gave) I have to travel back and forth to Dubai to see my husband (he is Lincoln Lad who lives in the United Arab Emirates) so I will have to save a trip to Zanzibar for the time being.....lol

Will have a look around and see what else can be found.

Sparrow formerly Bumblebee.

Hi Sparrow,

Who owned Osier Bed Company a Sparrow no doubt- what years?


I wrote to Wolverhampton Archives, they have been most helpful. Can I possibly give you bits to kindly research although they have been very helpful I am not proficient about visiting the sites to how to find the info'. Hopefully one day!



I will send it to you in sections as not to get confused each piece can be looked at indivisibly.


It starts off by giving: You can find a great deal of information taken from the GRO Index free of charge online, at the Free BMD website (www.freebmd.org.uk/). Free BMD is not absolutely comprehensive, but gives most of the names on the Index itself, up to around 1925-1930.ing:

• Crowley & Co.
We hold the following relevant items:
L386p: Journal of the Railway & Canal Historical Society, July 1999, article: "Crowley & Co., Canal Carriers 1811-1873":
MAP/144 (1864): Horseley Fields area, showing "Crowley’s Wharf".

It is great if we can get a whole story together. I understand with you having to go to Dubai back and foreth I have been there only once. What is a Lincoln Lad does it mean he comes from Linconshire? There are lots of English ex patriot’s working in Dubai now. lol Joanna:)

Lincoln Lad
26-09-2008, 11:50 AM
Joanna, although Bumblebee will fly into Dubai, I am currently working in Fujairah which is on the East Coast, so about 1 1/2 hour drive from Dubai.

PS she is a star isnt she.

Joanna1
26-09-2008, 12:01 PM
Joanna, although Bumblebee will fly into Dubai, I am currently working in Fujairah which is on the East Coast, so about 1 1/2 hour drive from Dubai.

PS she is a star isnt she.


My Goodness hello Lincoln, your wife certainly is a Star; do say if any of this is too much for her, no doubt you have been watching on.:) I must say she is fast and brilliant at Genealogy . Thanks for the mail. Joanna PS Are you from Lincolnshire hence the name? Joanna

Joanna1
26-09-2008, 12:06 PM
Hi Joanna

Yes, such a lot to research, so many names. I think there must be a book in this lot.

It does make interesting reading in the papers. Prior to the Osier Bed Company closing they were having trouble with flooding, extra pumps needed to be put in but the Company could only afford to do this if the men would work nine hour days and the men refused. Lots about strikes for better pay etc. I think they must have just cut their losses and closed the Company.

However much I would like to see Zanzibar (and it looks lovely in the link you gave) I have to travel back and forth to Dubai to see my husband (he is Lincoln Lad who lives in the United Arab Emirates) so I will have to save a trip to Zanzibar for the time being.....lol

Will have a look around and see what else can be found.

Sparrow formerly Bumblebee.


Sparrow this is very interesting this is possibly where the Crowley name for the Carriers did come in, be interesting if we did find out what James Willaims father James Weaver did for an occupation, I think you said he came from Birmingham?:

• James William Weaver and Mary Crowley
James Homer’s parents were married at Wolverhampton St. George’s on 19th May 1840. James William was of Worcester, and Mary Crowley of the "St. George’s district". One might assume a link between Mary and Crowley & Co., since Mary’s father John’s occupation is given in the parish register as "carrier". No occupation is given for James William’s father James. Again, for their respective addresses at the time of the marriage, you would need to purchase a copy of the certificate. I am afraid this marriage is not listed on the Free BMD website, so a search of the full General Register Office Index would be required to obtain the volume and page number needed to order the certificate.

Joanna

Joanna1
26-09-2008, 12:12 PM
Sparrow this is very interesting this is possibly where the Crowley name for the Carriers did come in, be interesting if we did find out what James Willaims father James Weaver did for an occupation, I think you said he came from Birmingham?:

• James William Weaver and Mary Crowley
James Homer’s parents were married at Wolverhampton St. George’s on 19th May 1840. James William was of Worcester, and Mary Crowley of the "St. George’s district". One might assume a link between Mary and Crowley & Co., since Mary’s father John’s occupation is given in the parish register as "carrier". No occupation is given for James William’s father James. Again, for their respective addresses at the time of the marriage, you would need to purchase a copy of the certificate. I am afraid this marriage is not listed on the Free BMD website, so a search of the full General Register Office Index would be required to obtain the volume and page number needed to order the certificate.

Joanna

If we need to I purchase a copy of James Willaims Weavers marriage certificate so we can see what he did for an occupation can one do this on line by giving credit card details? Joanna

Lincoln Lad
26-09-2008, 12:16 PM
Joanna, yes certificates can be ordered online by credit card, only use the official GRO site (google for it) though as there are lots of sites out to make money. If you have the GRO reference, it will cost £7 per cert.

I am actually not from Lincolnshire, only residing there when in the country.

bumblebee
26-09-2008, 10:56 PM
Hi Joanna

I think there are so many people to research, it is getting a bit confusing as to who is who.

Just to clarify, you asked................

..............................Who owned Osier Bed Company a Sparrow no doubt- what years?

This answer was from my previous post

William Mander Sparrow was the senior partner in the Osier Bed Iron Company, he also owned the Osier Bed Blast Furnaces and Collieries. In the later years his nephews, Mr W H Brown (William Arthur who changed his name to Sparrow?) and Mr T W H Fowke ran the business and they were also partners. He was a large shareholder in major railways, owned the large Albrighton estate and another estate near Bromyard. Arthur and Frederick Sparrow were his half-brothers.

The Osier Bed Works were purchased in 1848 by Mr Hanbury Sparrow, the grandfather of William Arthur Sparrow. Mr Hanbury Sparrow was joined in the business by his son William Mander Sparrow. When Mr Hanbury Sparrow died William Mander Sparrow admitted his nephews William Arthur Brown (who changed his name to Sparrow) and Thomas Fowke. In the early 1880's the company closed down due to bad trade and was later bought up by John Lysaghts galvanisers and black sheet company

Also you wrote.....................
....................................I wrote to Wolverhampton Archives, they have been most helpful. Can I possibly give you bits to kindly research although they have been very helpful I am not proficient about visiting the sites to how to find the info'. Hopefully one day!


The archives sound as if they have been a great help.

Sparrow formerly Bumblebee

Joanna1
27-09-2008, 11:33 AM
Hi Joanna

I think there are so many people to research, it is getting a bit confusing as to who is who.

Just to clarify, you asked................

..............................Who owned Osier Bed Company a Sparrow no doubt- what years?

This answer was from my previous post

William Mander Sparrow was the senior partner in the Osier Bed Iron Company, he also owned the Osier Bed Blast Furnaces and Collieries. In the later years his nephews, Mr W H Brown (William Arthur who changed his name to Sparrow?) and Mr T W H Fowke ran the business and they were also partners. He was a large shareholder in major railways, owned the large Albrighton estate and another estate near Bromyard. Arthur and Frederick Sparrow were his half-brothers.

The Osier Bed Works were purchased in 1848 by Mr Hanbury Sparrow, the grandfather of William Arthur Sparrow. Mr Hanbury Sparrow was joined in the business by his son William Mander Sparrow. When Mr Hanbury Sparrow died William Mander Sparrow admitted his nephews William Arthur Brown (who changed his name to Sparrow) and Thomas Fowke. In the early 1880's the company closed down due to bad trade and was later bought up by John Lysaghts galvanisers and black sheet company

Also you wrote.....................
....................................I wrote to Wolverhampton Archives, they have been most helpful. Can I possibly give you bits to kindly research although they have been very helpful I am not proficient about visiting the sites to how to find the info'. Hopefully one day!


The archives sound as if they have been a great help.

Sparrow formerly Bumblebee
Hi Sparrow,

You make it all into sence thank you again will take stock. lol Joanna

House Sparrow
23-10-2008, 3:48 PM
Hi Joanna, my name is Mike Wilmot and having read your interesting thread, I may be able to help you.

As a descendant of Thomas Fowke you and I have a common ancestor in the name of William Hanbury Sparrow. Iron Master, coal owner and industrialist.

William Hanbury Sparrow's first Marriage to Caroline Mander 26 Jan 1811 produced 2 sons, eldest son Wm Mander Sparrow who inherited Albrighton Hall in 1867 on the death of his father, youngest son Robert and 4 daughters, Caroline, Emma, Louisa and Mary Sophia.

Emma 2nd daughter born 21 July, bapt at Wolverhampton, 16 September 1814
marr at Penn 14 May 1846, Thomas Henry Fowke of Wolverhampton, Surgeon, born there 14 February 1804, died at Graisley 24 January 1861, buried at Penn.

Louisa 3rd dau., born 16 July, bapt at Wolverhampton 31 July 1816; marr. at Penn, 14 May 1846, George Gwynne Browne of Stourport, co. Worcester, born 29 April, bapt. at St. Leonard’s, Bridgnorth, 2 May 1810, died 5 March, bur. At Mitton, co Worcester, 9 March 1886.

She, Louisa, died at Stourport 25 July, bur. At Penn 30 July 1859.
He remarr. At West Malvern, 17 Nov. 1864, Mary Jane, dau. of George Baldwin of Stourport.



In Burke’s Landed Gentry Louisa is mentioned as follows:-

‘Louisa dau of Wm Mander Sparrow of Penn Court and Albrighton Hall Salop, m George Gwynne Brown of Stourport and d 25 July 1859, leaving inter alias, an eldest son, William Arthur Brown, Esq of Albrighton Hall. co Salop, and Campston, co. Monmouth, who has taken the surname of Sparrow.’


In spite of a name change William Arthur Sparrow was still a direct relative being the son of Louisa who was the daughter of William Mander Sparrow and so was his nephew. Wm Mander Sparrow did not have children and he would have been an appropiate heir.


You descend from Wm Hanbury Sparrow's first marriage to Caroline Mander and I from his second marriage to Sarah Higgs Turton 23 August 1824 which produced 2 sons, eldest son Frederick Turton Sparrow who inherited Habberly Hall Shropshire in 1867 on the death of his father and second son Arthur inherited the manor of Preen Shropshire, and 3 daughters Sarah Elizabeth, Mary Anne and youngest daughter Harriette.

My mother’s maiden name was Sparrow.
Her father was Stuart Flavel Sparrow my gt grandfather was Frederick Henry Sparrow, my gt gt grandfather Frederick Turton Sparrow and my gt gt gt William Hanbury Sparrow.

In the records and books left by my grandfather Stuart Flavel Sparrow I have a full account of all births marriages and deaths of the Sparrows from 1764 to the late 1800s.
There is an early photograph, taken around 1870, of my gt gt grandfather Frederick Turton Sparrow at Habberly with his daughters and his son Frederick (my grandfather's father) with wife Elizabeth Flavel and their baby son Federick, my grandfather's elder brother, showing three generations, William Hanbury Sparrow would have died about 14 years prior.

I knew a lot about my grandfather as I was brought after the war, having lost my father, killed in action in France, I was close to my grand parents and heard many interesting things about the Sparrows. my grandfather remembering his grandfather Frederick Turton Sparrow and visits to Habberly.
However enough of this rambling on..

Any way hope some of this helps, we must be related somehow but am no good at working this out. There is memorial brass and church windows in Shropshire remembering the Sparrows, well worth a visit.
If I can help further please let me know,
Best Regards Mike

Joanna1
24-10-2008, 1:03 PM
Hi Joanna, my name is Mike Wilmot and having read your interesting thread, I may be able to help you.

As a descendant of Thomas Fowke you and I have a common ancestor in the name of William Hanbury Sparrow. Iron Master, coal owner and industrialist.

William Hanbury Sparrow's first Marriage to Caroline Mander 26 Jan 1811 produced 2 sons, eldest son Wm Mander Sparrow who inherited Albrighton Hall in 1867 on the death of his father, youngest son Robert and 4 daughters, Caroline, Emma, Louisa and Mary Sophia.

Emma 2nd daughter born 21 July, bapt at Wolverhampton, 16 September 1814
marr at Penn 14 May 1846, Thomas Henry Fowke of Wolverhampton, Surgeon, born there 14 February 1804, died at Graisley 24 January 1861, buried at Penn.

Louisa 3rd dau., born 16 July, bapt at Wolverhampton 31 July 1816; marr. at Penn, 14 May 1846, George Gwynne Browne of Stourport, co. Worcester, born 29 April, bapt. at St. Leonard’s, Bridgnorth, 2 May 1810, died 5 March, bur. At Mitton, co Worcester, 9 March 1886.

She, Louisa, died at Stourport 25 July, bur. At Penn 30 July 1859.
He remarr. At West Malvern, 17 Nov. 1864, Mary Jane, dau. of George Baldwin of Stourport.



In Burke’s Landed Gentry Louisa is mentioned as follows:-

‘Louisa dau of Wm Mander Sparrow of Penn Court and Albrighton Hall Salop, m George Gwynne Brown of Stourport and d 25 July 1859, leaving inter alias, an eldest son, William Arthur Brown, Esq of Albrighton Hall. co Salop, and Campston, co. Monmouth, who has taken the surname of Sparrow.’


In spite of a name change William Arthur Sparrow was still a direct relative being the son of Louisa who was the daughter of William Mander Sparrow and so was his nephew. Wm Mander Sparrow did not have children and he would have been an appropiate heir.


You descend from Wm Hanbury Sparrow's first marriage to Caroline Mander and I from his second marriage to Sarah Higgs Turton 23 August 1824 which produced 2 sons, eldest son Frederick Turton Sparrow who inherited Habberly Hall Shropshire in 1867 on the death of his father and second son Arthur inherited the manor of Preen Shropshire, and 3 daughters Sarah Elizabeth, Mary Anne and youngest daughter Harriette.

My mother’s maiden name was Sparrow.
Her father was Stuart Flavel Sparrow my gt grandfather was Frederick Henry Sparrow, my gt gt grandfather Frederick Turton Sparrow and my gt gt gt William Hanbury Sparrow.

In the records and books left by my grandfather Stuart Flavel Sparrow I have a full account of all births marriages and deaths of the Sparrows from 1764 to the late 1800s.
There is an early photograph, taken around 1870, of my gt gt grandfather Frederick Turton Sparrow at Habberly with his daughters and his son Frederick (my grandfather's father) with wife Elizabeth Flavel and their baby son Federick, my grandfather's elder brother, showing three generations, William Hanbury Sparrow would have died about 14 years prior.

I knew a lot about my grandfather as I was brought after the war, having lost my father, killed in action in France, I was close to my grand parents and heard many interesting things about the Sparrows. my grandfather remembering his grandfather Frederick Turton Sparrow and visits to Habberly.
However enough of this rambling on..

Any way hope some of this helps, we must be related somehow but am no good at working this out. There is memorial brass and church windows in Shropshire remembering the Sparrows, well worth a visit.
If I can help further please let me know,
Best Regards Mike

Dear Mike,

Can’t wait to hear from you again this was such a suprise. When did you join B-G?

You may ramble on as much as you like Mike - longing to hear more infact all you learnt from your Grandparents! - lucky you. Maybe this will have to wait until we meet one day. Have you a private email address - where are you? Are you based in the uk? Do give me your private details.

With love and kindest regards

Joanna

House Sparrow
24-10-2008, 3:52 PM
Hi Joanna, I am delighted to make contact. A few days ago I was trawling the ‘ether’ to find any more info on William Hanbury Sparrow and Google came up with references to him on the B – G site on your thread. So there we are!

I have read your thread and full marks to BumbleBee for the research. If there is anything I can add with the records/ info here please ask. I believe the earliest reference to a Sparrow was Thomas Sparrey bur 29 August 1549, Audley Staffs. The name changed to Sparrow in the 1600s when John Sparrow married Mary Booth b 22 October 1689 mar at Audley 27 April 1712.

There is a lot of information here on paper sent to my late mother back in 1994. Some of it relates to the will of William Hanbury Sparrow which ran into 77 pages of which I have an extract here of two pages, but would be available somewhere in a record office. He left effects of just under half-a-million pounds and interestingly for you Emma Fowke was a beneficiary receiving £26,000 in shares, property at Graisley, is this where she lived?, and one seventh of residue of the personal estate.
Will speak to you soon and in the meantime will try and send email via B-G
giving personal info.

All for now, kindest regards

Mike

Joanna1
26-10-2008, 10:01 AM
Hi Joanna

I think there are so many people to research, it is getting a bit confusing as to who is who.

Just to clarify, you asked................

..............................Who owned Osier Bed Company a Sparrow no doubt- what years?

This answer was from my previous post

William Mander Sparrow was the senior partner in the Osier Bed Iron Company, he also owned the Osier Bed Blast Furnaces and Collieries. In the later years his nephews, Mr W H Brown (William Arthur who changed his name to Sparrow?) and Mr T W H Fowke ran the business and they were also partners. He was a large shareholder in major railways, owned the large Albrighton estate and another estate near Bromyard. Arthur and Frederick Sparrow were his half-brothers.

The Osier Bed Works were purchased in 1848 by Mr Hanbury Sparrow, the grandfather of William Arthur Sparrow. Mr Hanbury Sparrow was joined in the business by his son William Mander Sparrow. When Mr Hanbury Sparrow died William Mander Sparrow admitted his nephews William Arthur Brown (who changed his name to Sparrow) and Thomas Fowke. In the early 1880's the company closed down due to bad trade and was later bought up by John Lysaghts galvanisers and black sheet company

Also you wrote.....................
....................................I wrote to Wolverhampton Archives, they have been most helpful. Can I possibly give you bits to kindly research although they have been very helpful I am not proficient about visiting the sites to how to find the info'. Hopefully one day!


The archives sound as if they have been a great help.

Sparrow formerly Bumblebee

Hi Sparrow or anyone who maybe able to help. I beleive Thomas Henry Fowke was married to Emma nee Sparrow date 14.5.1846 they had a daughter Emily Florence my great Grandmother who married James Homer Weaver. I understand Emma Fowke lived at: Graisley, Staffordshire. I need I believe to purchase Emily Florance Weaver nee Fowke birth Certificate to clarify this. Can anyone tell me what dates I am looking for - for the GOP? Or what it is I need. Many thanks Joanna

Joanna1
26-10-2008, 10:19 AM
Hi Joanna, I am delighted to make contact. A few days ago I was trawling the ‘ether’ to find any more info on William Hanbury Sparrow and Google came up with references to him on the B – G site on your thread. So there we are!

I have read your thread and full marks to BumbleBee for the research. If there is anything I can add with the records/ info here please ask. I believe the earliest reference to a Sparrow was Thomas Sparrey bur 29 August 1549, Audley Staffs. The name changed to Sparrow in the 1600s when John Sparrow married Mary Booth b 22 October 1689 mar at Audley 27 April 1712.

There is a lot of information here on paper sent to my late mother back in 1994. Some of it relates to the will of William Hanbury Sparrow which ran into 77 pages of which I have an extract here of two pages, but would be available somewhere in a record office. He left effects of just under half-a-million pounds and interestingly for you Emma Fowke was a beneficiary receiving £26,000 in shares, property at Graisley, is this where she lived?, and one seventh of residue of the personal estate.
Will speak to you soon and in the meantime will try and send email via B-G
giving personal info.

All for now, kindest regards

Mike

Hi Mike,

Yes Bumblebee has been incredible 5 ***** I have just asked Bumblebee regarding Graisley, as I do not know. I may need to purchase Emily Florence Birth Certificate to fine out it was an amazingly huge piece of inheritance for those days. Speak soon Joanna

bumblebee
29-10-2008, 12:22 PM
Hi Joanna

I think this is the birth reference that you need to quote on the GRO site.

Emily Florence Fowke, Year of Registration: 1849 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Wolverhampton, Volume: 17, Page: 436

Bumblebee

bumblebee
29-10-2008, 12:30 PM
Just another little snippet.

Paper dated April 25th 1885
On the 22nd April, at St Mary's Church, Henham, Essex, John Frederick Fowke of Kings Norton, Leicester, the third son of the late Thomas Henry Fowke of Penn Court, Wolverhampton, married Jessie Elizabeth Collin second daughter of G F Collin, Henham.

Bumblebee

Joanna1
29-10-2008, 4:04 PM
Hi Joanna

I think this is the birth reference that you need to quote on the GRO site.

Emily Florence Fowke, Year of Registration: 1849 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Wolverhampton, Volume: 17, Page: 436

Bumblebee

This was what I wanted. Thank you Bumblebee I think Emily Florance's mother was Emma Fowke who's father was William Hanbury Sparrow. who was the man who invented the Steam Engine to pump water out of mines and freind of George Stepehenson. William Hanbury was married twice first wife Caroline Mander which is the line down to me. Will tell you for sure when I have the cirtificate thanks again Bumblebee:) Joanna

Joanna1
29-10-2008, 4:11 PM
Just another little snippet.

Paper dated April 25th 1885
On the 22nd April, at St Mary's Church, Henham, Essex, John Frederick Fowke of Kings Norton, Leicester, the third son of the late Thomas Henry Fowke of Penn Court, Wolverhampton, married Jessie Elizabeth Collin second daughter of G F Collin, Henham.

Bumblebee

Very Interesting thank you will tell Mike Wilmot speak soon Joanna

House Sparrow
29-10-2008, 5:48 PM
Hi Joanna

That's excellent news, you are certainly on the right track there.

Penn Court, as you probably know was built and lived in by Wm Hanbury Sparrow until his death in 1867. I had found something on the internet several months ago, saying that Penn House and its neighbour Penn Court were demolished shortly after the First War.

'There remain sections of fine Gornal sandstone garden walls. One of these meets the pavement on the Penn Road. At the foot of the wall next to telephone marker is an old Penn Parish marker stone.'

Shame about that would have loved to have seen the house, but will visit sometime to see where it was.There was a picture in my grandfathers things but I think it was thrown out after his death.

Apparently the east window at St Bartholomews church Penn commemorates Wm Hanbury Sparrow.

Thanks yr email. Sorry to hear about your punctures, two at once is real bad luck, hope all is ok now.

Will be in touch, hoping to send you pages out of the Sparrow book and also have early photos of Albrighton

House Sparrow
31-10-2008, 4:39 PM
Hi Joanna, could you send me your email address, having difficulty getting this message to you with attachments. The message follows below, but will try again on the end of the email thread....


Joanna, hope these pages are readable. The Sparrow ones, pages 227 - 231 are scanned photocopies from Visitation of England and Wales Vol 1. I have taken digital photographs as well and they are much clearer, if these are not readable please let me know and I will email the others.

Pages 207 and 208 are Flavel tree, I have added these, to illustrate the family connection, my grandfathers parents are listed on page 208, Elizabeth Flavel married Frederick Henry Sparrow of Habberly Hall 1853. This is cross referenced on page 229 of Sparrow history on line D.

The Flavels were an old family dating back to the Norman Conquest when a French Knight Roger de Flamville resided in England after 1066 the name developing into Flavel in the Middle Ages.

At the time of my gt grandfather's marriage they were an influential family residing in Leamington Spa manufacturing kitchen ranges. The company survives today under a different name and manufactures agas. We did in my grandfather's time have an oil painting of the founder Sidney Flavel of whom he was very proud, however, one of my aunts gave it away to Flavels, whilst I was at sea, and it is now hanging in their board room. I wish I could get it back.

Anyway enough of that, you may not be interested so back to the Sparrows. If it looks a bit of a maze, it is'nt really, you follow a vertical line from a marriage to a horizontal line which is numbered A B C D E, with the pages in the correct order ( I don't know how they will arrive at your end) A on one page joins up with A on the next page, B with B and so on.

Taking our ancestor William Hanbury Sparrow's marriage to Caroline Mander (your line) follow down to line C on page 227 these are their children and where C meets C on page 228 you will see Emma second daughter marries Thomas Henry Fowke.

My line, second marriage of Wm Hanbury Sparrow follow B to page 228 and my gt gt grand parents Frederick Sparrow marries Elizabeth Crane, follow D from their marriage onto page 229 and you will see my gt grand parents, Frederich Henry and Elizabeth Flavel, under their marriage are their children and Stuart Flavel Sparrow at the bottom of the page, is my grandfather born 1880.
If things aren't clear l will send fresh digital photos, the Sparrow,s are listed in Burke's Landed Gentry and later I will send you scans of that.

Speak to you soon and will send you things now an then.

Mike

Joanna1
01-11-2008, 5:52 AM
Hi Joanna, could you send me your email address, having difficulty getting this message to you with attachments. The message follows below, but will try again on the end of the email thread....


Joanna, hope these pages are readable. The Sparrow ones, pages 227 - 231 are scanned photocopies from Visitation of England and Wales Vol 1. I have taken digital photographs as well and they are much clearer, if these are not readable please let me know and I will email the others.

Pages 207 and 208 are Flavel tree, I have added these, to illustrate the family connection, my grandfathers parents are listed on page 208, Elizabeth Flavel married Frederick Henry Sparrow of Habberly Hall 1853. This is cross referenced on page 229 of Sparrow history on line D.

The Flavels were an old family dating back to the Norman Conquest when a French Knight Roger de Flamville resided in England after 1066 the name developing into Flavel in the Middle Ages.

At the time of my gt grandfather's marriage they were an influential family residing in Leamington Spa manufacturing kitchen ranges. The company survives today under a different name and manufactures agas. We did in my grandfather's time have an oil painting of the founder Sidney Flavel of whom he was very proud, however, one of my aunts gave it away to Flavels, whilst I was at sea, and it is now hanging in their board room. I wish I could get it back.

Anyway enough of that, you may not be interested so back to the Sparrows. If it looks a bit of a maze, it is'nt really, you follow a vertical line from a marriage to a horizontal line which is numbered A B C D E, with the pages in the correct order ( I don't know how they will arrive at your end) A on one page joins up with A on the next page, B with B and so on.

Taking our ancestor William Hanbury Sparrow's marriage to Caroline Mander (your line) follow down to line C on page 227 these are their children and where C meets C on page 228 you will see Emma second daughter marries Thomas Henry Fowke.

My line, second marriage of Wm Hanbury Sparrow follow B to page 228 and my gt gt grand parents Frederick Sparrow marries Elizabeth Crane, follow D from their marriage onto page 229 and you will see my gt grand parents, Frederich Henry and Elizabeth Flavel, under their marriage are their children and Stuart Flavel Sparrow at the bottom of the page, is my grandfather born 1880.
If things aren't clear l will send fresh digital photos, the Sparrow,s are listed in Burke's Landed Gentry and later I will send you scans of that.

Speak to you soon and will send you things now an then.

Mike

Mike thank you thank you so sorry did not realise I had not given you my email address, will do it now. Look forward to seeing these attachments all very exciting. I have not managed as yet to scan the paper work in I have hopefully sometime towards the end of next week Speak soon Joanna :)

owlpen
10-08-2009, 1:40 PM
It’s been fascinating to stumble across this thread, as hitherto my knowledge of these Sparrows was largely limited to old family records and various editions of the Burke’s Landed Gentry, from 1867 to 1952.

Nobody seems to have noted that Caroline Mander, b. 1788, was a scion of the Wolverhampton family of industrialists, manufacturers, philanthropists and entrepreneurs as the daughter of Thomas Mander, hardware merchant of Edgbaston, who was the younger brother of Benjamin, of John Lane, Wolverhampton (today the site of the Mander Centre). They were both sons of Thomas Mander, b. 1720, the first of the family to settle in Wolverhampton, where he migrated from Lapworth, Warwickshire, about 1743.

You will find a pretty comprehensive genealogy of the Mander family back to late medieval times on: www owlpen.com/mander-genealogy.shtml clicking on the Mander genealogy .pdf tab.

It’s interesting that the Manders also married into the Hanburys (of Kidderminster) and that Caroline’s elder sister, Elizabeth, married John Weaver, who was in partnership as a chemical manufacturer with her uncle John Mander, with whom he operated “one of the largest elaboratories in the kingdom” by 1828. It’s possible all these Midland/ Wolverhampton Weavers are connected (but not related to the Cheshire Weavers, one of whom, Sophia, married Charles Benjamin Mander in 1850).

The early industrial families of the Wolverhampton region seem to have been closely connected, investing in the same enterprises, serving on the same public organisations in the governance of the town, entering into partnership with one another, and often marrying into each other’s families to form a tight-nit, endogamous group. Genealogy seems to me particularly interesting where you find these intermarried groups.

Also John Mander lived in a fine house known as The Elms, on Penn Road. I wonder if it is the same The Elms where James Homer Weaver is later recorded? John’s direct (male) descendants died out, and the business was continued under the Weaver family to the 1870s, when it was absorbed by Mander Brothers, paint and varnish manufacturers.

I wonder if anyone knows who is the senior representative of this branch of the Sparrow family today? According to our records of a century ago, they held an interesting archive relating to the Manders.

The most famous recent member of this line, though born illegitimate, was John Sparrow, the Fellow of All Souls.

Nicky
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Joanna1
15-10-2009, 10:55 AM
There seems no mention on the Mander Tree of Caroline Mander (my gt gt gt Grandmother who's father was (I believe] Charles Benjamin Mander[/B]

Caroline Mander married married John Hanbury Sparrow.My Gt gt gt grandparents

D2. Sophia Weaver, b. Chester 17 Jan 1827; m. Chester Cathedral 14 April 1850
Charles Benjamin Mander, JP Staffs, of The Mount, Tettenhall Wood,
varnish manufacturer (b. Chapel Ash 9 July 1819; d. 18 Aug 1878 ). Sophia d. 29 Oct 1869, aged 42 (bur. at St Peter’s,
Wolverhampton), having had issue three sons and five daughters (see sub Mander).
Charles B. Mander married 2nd Harriet Spooner (no further issue).

BENJAMIN JOHN
(1752–1819) (1754–1827)
baker and japanner, of Wolverhampton chemical mfr, of Wolverhampton, 1773
m 1776 Elizabeth Hanbury Read, m 1 1778 Esther Lea, of Kidderminster
of Kidderminster
CHARLES BENJAMIN PARTON
(1780–1853) (1785–1835)
varnish manufacturer, 1803 chemical mfr
m 1 1812 Jemima Small, of Boston, Lincs
CHARLES BENJAMIN SAMUEL SMALL
(1819–1878) (1822–1881)
of The Mount (1862) of Glen Bank
founder partner in Mander Brothers 1845 founder partner in Mander Brothers 1845
m 1 1850 Sophia Weaver, of Chester m 1850 Mary Wilkes, of Wolverhampton
Sir CHARLES TERTIUS NEVILLE JACK SAMUEL THEODORE BENJAMIN HOWARD.


James Homer weaver was my Gt Grandfather he had Sons Humphrey Weaver my Grandfather b 1881 he had a Son Philip Humphrey Peter Weaver b. 1912

As I am confused here (I cant see how the Weaver line died out): As there was a male Weaver my father.

Also John Mander lived in a fine house known as The Elms, on Penn Road. Does anyone know if it is the same The Elms where James Homer Weaver is later recorded?

John’s direct (male) descendants died out, and the business was continued under the Weaver family to the 1870s, when it was absorbed by Mander Brothers, paint and varnish manufacturers.

Was John Weaver any relation down the line to James Homer Weaver.?

Or is the singular but still major connection my gt gt gt grandmother Caroline Mander Father with her forefathers?

Was the Weaver relationship any relation to down the line to James Homer Weaver or another family Weaver who married CarolineMander sister Elizabeth marrying John Weaver who was in partnership as a chemical manufacturer with her uncle John Mander?

Does anyone know if John Mander's House The Elms, on Penn Road it is the same The Elms where James Homer Weaver is later recorded?


The present direct Mander is carrying the Baronetcy Sir Nicolas Mander Is it correct Sir Nicolas and I Joanna Weaver share the same Gt gt gt gt grandfather? does anyone know?

This is all so exciting but quite a puzzle. All in your o wn time sorry if I am making it more complicated! Many thanks Jooanna