Old contemptabiles

[Georgie]

My Father in law was a seargent Major in the first world war serving in the 2nd East Lancs his no was235036 he lost his toes in the trenches. He received the cigarette box which was given to the troops. He was sent home to hospital in 1915 to cheltenham race course. to convalesce. He previously was in India in 1909 when he was 21 and was in the tug of war team. He would never talk about the war and my husband would love to know more(he is 82) We know he had medals But they were stolen His Name was Charles James Williams Eagerly waiting

[WW1 Research]

The 2nd East Lancs were part of the 8th Division, who went to France in November 1914. They took over the line south of Armentieres in Northern France, and spent the winter there. Their first major battle was Neuve Chapelle on 10th March 1915

[AnnB]

I've had a quick look around and it would appear that the 2nd East Lancs are now part of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, along with the South Lancs and North Lancs Regiments. If you go to www.army.mod.uk/qlr/ you will find the home page of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, with links to other pages which may help you. The contacts link is probably your best bet. Get in touch with them and see if they have anything in their archives about your father in law, I am sure they will be helpful. There is also an East Lancashire Regimental Gallery in Blackburn. I couldn't find an e-mail address but the postal address is Museum Street, Blackburn, Lancashire, BB1 7AJ (telephone 01772 716 543)

Best wishes
Ann

[Georgie]

Hi Ann Thanks so much for your information its the nearest we have been able to get on what happened, with look at the other site you suggested and will let you know what happens and thank you again georgie

[croonaert]

My Father in law was a seargent Major in the first world war serving in the 2nd East Lancs his no was235036


Georgie.

Can you confirm your father-in -law's details?

I only ask because that regimental number seems a little long for a sergeant-major in the 2/East Lancs of that period (the number is more reminiscant of a 4th Bn East Lancs number of the post-1917 period) and the only Charles J Williams that I can find anything on who served overseas in WW1 had a different number and was only a L/Cpl.

Thanks,

Dave.

[busyglen]

Hallo Dave,

Georgie is my sister, and is unable to reply to you today, so I hope you don't mind me doing it for her?

She has said that his number referred to when he was a private, and the only number they have. Would this have changed when he was promoted?

Thanks for your reply.

Regards

Glenys

[busyglen]

Hallo Dave,

Georgie is my sister, and is unable to reply to you today, so I hope you don't mind me doing it for her?

She has said that his number referred to when he was a private, and the only number they have. Would this have changed when he was promoted?

Thanks for your reply.

Regards

Glenys


Have managed to find out a bit more from Georgie.

The number given was actually on his dogtag, which her son has.

When he came back from the trenches he went to Plymouth in 1916 as Provo Sgt. Major. (if that makes sense??)

Glenys

[croonaert]

Glenys.

Is there any chance of a scan of this dog-tag? (This is intriguing me now!).

The number wouldn't have changed with promotion, no,(usally only with a regiment change and, occasionally, a battalion change) but it makes it even more "wrong" as it should have been a smaller number if it's the number he had as a private.

Does the dog-tag state "E.Lan.R." or similar along with his name and number, or is the regimental detail omitted?

He didn't leave the army before 1914 and was recalled as a reservist was he?

(sorry for bombarding you with questions, but, as I said, it's intriguing me and I'd like to get to the bottom of it!

Thanks,

Dave.

[busyglen]

Hi Dave,

It's a bit difficult doing this back and forth, so please bear with me. I only know a little of the story.

I am visiting my sister on Thursday, and have asked her to jot down what details she and her husband have. From my own memory of the story, he was born in 1888 and joined the East Lancs. as a lad. He was in the trenches during WW1 where he lost his toes and was sent back to England to convalesce. Later (1916) he went to Plymouth, as Provo Sgt. Major. Possibly because of his work in the trenches? We don't know.

Anyway, my nephew is going to let me have a look at the dogtag, and if it is scanable, I will do so. If not I can at least tell you what is on it.

It will probably be a couple of days before I can let you have this information, so don't go away!! ;)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Hi Dave,

Have gleaned a bit more info, pending seeing the dog-tag.

Charles James Williams was in India in 1909 when he was 21, and it is believed he was there until returning to fight in WW1. My BiL has a photo of him in India, which shows him as being in the 2nd East Lancs. Reg. It is believed that because of so many being killed during the war, his regiment was merged with another on several occasions. Not sure when he came back to Cheltenham to convalesce, but he then married in Cheltenham in 1916. He was then sent to Plympton (Plymouth) as Prov. Sgt. (Major?) It's not too clear if he was Sgt. Major or Sgt. My sister believes that this was a Rehab. for Veneral Diseases, so possibly a promotion? He had the authority to find soldiers in Plymouth and send them back to barracks. Afterwards, he was on the Reserve list and was called to help in the General Strike.

Thats about as much as I can glean as Charles wasn't one to talk about his life.

Hope that may give you some idea. As soon as I can see the dog-tag, I'll come back to you.

Georgie is really grateful for any help you can give, as her husband is 85, and would really like to find out a bit more information on his father.

Many thanks. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Dave,

Yet another piece of information.....surprising what happens when you get someone's brain going!!

My sister dug Charles' marriage cert. out which contained the following info:

In June 1916 he was a Lance/Cpl in the 1st East Lancs. and address given as:
Egg (that's what it looks like) Buckland, Devon. Don't know if that changes things at all?

Glenys

[AnnB]

Hello Glenys

In view of what you mentioned before, you may be interested in the fact that Devonport (Egg Buckland) was a military hospital for the treatment of VD. It is mentioned at http://www.1914-1918.net/hospitals_uk.htm - almost at the bottom of the page.

Best wishes
Ann

[busyglen]

Hi Ann,

Thanks for that. My sister knew that he was sent to the VD hospital, but she thought it was at Plympton, not Devonport. It's great to see that at least some of the information she acquired was correct.

Thanks again, when she manages to get back on line, she will be able to look for herself. :)

Glenys

[busyglen]

Hi Dave,

My nephew has just forwarded this scan of the dog-tags.....hope it is readable.

Regards

Glenys

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i209/busyglen/P1011056.jpg

[busyglen]

Sorry, it must have been too large, as you should see it without having to click on the link....better than nothing though. :)

Glenys

[croonaert]

Thanks for the scan Glenys.

It certainly makes more questions than it gives answers though!

The Plymouth link makes me think of a transfer to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion (which was at plymouth until May 1917 when they moved to Saltburn in Yorkshire), which would be a typical move for a post-convelesence soldier who hadn't been discharged.

The tags are of post September 1916 issue (well, the lozenge shaped "no.1" tag is, anyway) and do ,indeed, carry that mystery number. As mentioned earlier, it is too long to be the number of a 1st or 2nd battalion man of the 1914-15 period and falls into the number block of the post-1917 4th battalion.Is it possible that he served with the 4th Battalion at some stage during or after 1917?

Do you know if his original aluminium pre-1914 tag still exists anywhere - or the one he would have been issued with 1914-1916? They'd have his original number stamped on.

There is no Charles Williams' (plus variants) that I can find mentioned on the (online) Medal Index Cards with that number so, one thing is pretty much for certain - he didn't serve overseas with that number. Why his number would change (unless he was discharged and re-enlisted) so dramatically within the same regiment is a mystery to me.

One more theory - do you know if he was still serving during the 1919 - 1920 period? There's a possibility that this could be an example of one of the "transitional" regimental numbers that appeared then (the regimental numbering system changed in 1920 to an army-wide numbering system and the 1919-20 period was one of pretty much anarchy as regards the numbering systems!

If you could obtain his service record and/or medal roll, then the mystery could be solved for certain.

dave.

[busyglen]

Well Dave....it's not for the want of trying is it? ;)

I've been with sister and brother in law this morning, trying to drag out any snippet of information that might be there, but just needs a nudge.

Your last paragraph with the theory about a later number being issued, is certainly a possibility. My BiL was born in March 1921, and his father started work we believe some time after that. He was definately in the Reserves, and my BiL thinks he was at Colchester towards the end, and was called back to help with the General Strike.

Unfortunately nothing is known about a metal tag, but the newness of the dog-tags in the photo, certainly seem to relate to your theory?

The only other information that I can impart, is that he joined the Army, at a young age, after running away from home, and adding several years to his age.

A photo shows him as being in `B' Coy, 2nd E.L.R., Winners of Lightweight Tug of War, 1909, in India.

The only other snippet was that he served under Lt.Col?? Hunter Western, in India and France.

I did find a Charles James Williams on the Medal Rolls, which I thought `may' be the one, but the number was different, so I discarded it. Will have to have another look....there were so many Williams!

Of course his records would be the place to go, but that isn't an option at the moment.

Thanks for your help....my sister & BiL are grateful for your input.

Glenys

[Terry Reeves]

Glenys

I think the snippet may refer to Lt General Sir Aylmer Hunter Weston. Some details can be found here:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/hunterweston.htm

His service in India was primarily in the 1890's and he also served in the Boer War.

Terry Reeves

[busyglen]

Terry, thank you for that.....it's really interesting to note that he was in India earlier than when my BiL's father was there. This is always a problem when everything is heresay isn't it? Bits that were gleaned, can so easily be forgotten or mis-remembered. I do know that Charles didn't speak a great deal of his service and the War, to his son, as so many other soldiers did.

It's possible that he served under Sir Hunter Weston in France in 1916, which is where
Charles was wounded.

Thanks again for this information.....all helps to paint a picture for my Brother in Law and Sister.

Glenys

[croonaert]

I did find a Charles James Williams on the Medal Rolls, which I thought `may' be the one, but the number was different, so I discarded it. Will have to have another look....there were so many Williams!

Did you find this one on the actual rolls or on the index cards online? (the one I found of that name online later served in 2 other units after his time in the East Lancs. Thinking about it,this could be him, you know, with a 1919 return to his original unit that wouldn't be shown on the index cards). One thing's almost for certain though - during his earlier army career, including his overseas service, he served under a different number.

Dave.

[busyglen]

Correction Dave, sorry! From memory, I found a Charles J Williams on the National Roll of the Great War, on 1837online. I was looking for my father at the time, and decided to search for Charles at the same time. I thought I had kept a copy, but can't find it. I think it mentioned a Lancs. regiment, but I can't be sure now.

From all that has been said, like you, I think the number we have on the dog-tags is not the one he had when he originally joined. What a pain!!

When I have a bit more time, I will try and find the one I saw on 1837online. Trouble is, there are SO many Williams' !!

Thanks.

Glenys

[busyglen]

Dave, I have now found the entry that I `thought' might have been him a while back, but rejected. It is under CJ Williams, Lieut., South Lancashire Regt. There is a number on the right-hand bottom of the piece, 5638. I realised he was in the E. Lancs. so ignored this. But....then we thought that so many Regiments and Divisions were merged, so `might' have been a possible. I suspect this is not him.

Glenys

[croonaert]

It's almost certainly not him, Glenys.

Mergers tended to take place within battalions of one regiment rather than between regiments (although transfers of troops did take place). The regular battalions of the East Lancs never "merged" with anyone and remained the 1st and 2nd Battalions to the war's end and beyond.

Do you know which volume of the National Roll he appears in? I've got most of them so will take a look to satisfy myself on this (the number, by the way, is the roll entry and nothing to do with his military service - pre-1920 army officers didn't have numbers).

Dave.

[busyglen]

Unfortunately Dave, I don't know what volume it was in as I did a name search (on 1837 online's National Roll of the Great War) and looked at two entries I thought were possibles. Unfortunately I have now run out of units. I looked at the printout I took, but there is no mention of a volume number. It just gives name, rank and regiment, plus brief history. Sorry.

Glenys

[croonaert]

Not to worry, Glenys, I looked for him myself. The one you mentioned was in London Section 2 and is definately not your chap. There is another C J Williams in the Portsmouth volume (section 10?). Unfortunately , I don't have the Portsmouth volume, so couldn't check him out.

These two are the only C J Williams' that I can find indexed in the national Roll, but there's nothing to say that either are the correct ones (the National Roll is interesting, but is majorly incomplete and can, at times, be almost regarded as a work of fiction!).

You don't have the details of the "other" C J Williams on the Nat.Roll (the Portsmouth one) do you?

Dave.

[busyglen]

No sorry Dave, I didn't have enough credits left to check him out. I will have to have a look when next I decide to spend another £5 on searching.....unless someone else is in credit and wouldn't mind looking this up on 1837 online??

Glenys

[Alex Ewen-French]

Glenys

The other National Roll entry says:

Williams, C.J., Private, 14th Hampshire Regiment.
Volunteering in August 1914, a year later he was sent to the Western Front and was engaged in heavy fighting in many parts of the line, and during his active service was three times wounded. He was severely gassed during the first Battle of the Somme and subsequently died fromthe effects of poisoning in September 2nd, 1916. He was entitled to the 1914-15 Starr and the General Service and Victory Medals.
'His life for his Country, his soul to God.'
2, White Horse Alley, St. George's Square, Portsea

Alex

[busyglen]

Thank you so much for looking this up Alex, it was very kind of you.

At least it has proven that this is not our Charles Williams, as he was not gassed or died in 1916, so we are able to eliminate him.

Glenys

[croonaert]

Thanks Alex.

Didn't think it would be him for some reason (Portsmouth is quite a distance from Devon). It's a shame that the National Roll was never completed and included more places. (Mind you, it's pretty rare to find any completely accurate information in it anyway).



Dave