middle name

[GloucsYeates]

Hi all,
I would appreciate some views of what new information has come tom light.
If you read my thread in illegitimacy about my problem, I can update you now.
I have just found out Richard married Ann Wilson in Didbrook parish north of Temple Guiting. The witnesses were Lucy Wilson and William Spencer. So i have tried to find out about William Spencer incase he could be the father of my Richard.
I have found a birth in 1772 in Withington for a William Spencer which is the same village Richard's mother was born ( Elizabeth Yates).
So do you think it is possible William could be his Dad??
Also Richard named is first son William (he named his first daughter Elizabeth).
It just leaves one problem which I need peoples views of, which is Richard was baptised Richard HALL which some people have said doesn't mean Hall has to be fathers surname.So why was he named Hall if that was not Father's surname. Really could do with some expert views of my problem.
Thanks,
Dave|computer|

[Jan1954]

To see the background to Dave's question, please read this thread (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34312).

Dave - it could well be that William Spencer was a parish clerk, so not necessarily Richard's father. Have you seen his name as a witness on other marriages in the parish?

I still think that, by having Hall as Richard's middle name, it could be quite possible that his father also went by the same surname. As Richard named his eldest son William, have you searched for a William Hall at all?

Either that, or Hall could be a surname from Elizabeth Yeats' line - her mother, perhaps?

These are just my thoughts and things for you to consider.

[GloucsYeates]

thanks jan,
I know elizabeth's mothers maiden name was Betteridge, but i'll check about William Spencer to see if he was a parish clerk.
It's just that Richard naming his first son William I thought the influence came from William Spencer, even if he was a guardian and some sort of father figure to Richard.
Thanks, Dave.

[Jan1954]

The trouble is Dave, back then, the same names were popular thoughout villages and families. William (Richard's son) may have been named after any other of Richard's relatives or just because it was "in vogue" at the time.

Rare to find really unusual names to help us. :(

[elaine webb]

Hi Dave,

I can emphasize with your illigitimacy problem completely. I too have just found out that my Great Grandfather was illigitimate. He was one of 3 children (the youngest) the other 2 children didn't have middle names but my grt grandfather did. John RUSSELL Scott. With the help and advice from other members on here, I decided to search for a man living in the same area as my great grandfather with the surname Russell. In fact, just a few streets away I found a John Russell who worked in a Shipyard. James Scott which is the father of John's older brother and sister (but not my grt grandfather - John) also worked at the same shipyard. I put 2 and 2 together and came up with 8! Considering they were nearly neighbours and probably co-workers and friends I suspected that John's mother had an affair with this Mr Russell and consequently got pregnant. Also James Scott did a vanishing act not long after! Ironically, this John Russell had a middle name - Scott!! Another theory was that James Scott may have died and the mother took comfort in his friend John Russell.

All this is theory of course and I may never be able to prove it. I am at the moment waiting to hear if John Russell is named as father on the bastardy bonds. I'm not holding my breath though!

I'm not much help I'm afraid but I just wanted to let you know of my 'illigitimate' problem. All I can say is, that usually the mother names the child after the real father - although maybe not always.
If I were you I would still search for someone with the Hall surname.

As I said before, I can't and probably never will be able to prove my theory but I have a 'good feeling' that this is what may have happened with my great grandad. The best advice I can give you is to go with your instincts - this has worked for me.

Sorry I've not been much help, but good luck in your seach.

Best wishes

Elaine.

[benny1982]

Hi

I would go for the possibility that someone with the surname Hall was the father. William Spencer may have just been a clerk or churchwarden or other pillar of the community. Have you found any Hall baptisms in around the time Elizabeth Yates was born?

Bear in mind though that the father may not necessarily have been local. He may have lived several miles away. Many people walked to work and used horse and carts, and if the father was a servant, this increases that possibility tenfold.

My 2xgreat gran was born out of wedlock to a single mum and a servant father whose wife was severly ill with TB when his future wife fell pregnant. Shortly after his wife died and the babe was born they both did a vanishing act and moved 50 miles to London where he married her and he acknowledged paternity by baptising the baby as his.

Due to the baby being born a girl, it was registered as Mary Ann Walder after the mum, then changed to Mary Ann Kate Roberts when the parents wed 6 months later. But if it had been a boy, no doubt it would be called Thomas Walder later changed to Thos Roberts when the parents wed.

ELAINE Your theory sounds plausible to me. I would go with your instincts. 100% proof is not always achievable but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out something simple like that with John Russell. I would say that sounds the most obvious explanation.

Ben

[Jan1954]

Due to the baby being born a girl, it was registered as Mary Ann Walder after the mum, then changed to Mary Ann Kate Roberts when the parents wed 6 months later. But if it had been a boy, no doubt it would be called Thomas Walder later changed to Thos Roberts when the parents wed.

Ben
Interesting comment that, Ben. I have Mary Ann Dean Cross who was the illegitimate daughter of Sarah Cross. Her father was William Dean.

[benny1982]

Hi Jan

Not all babies born out of wedlock were given their fathers surname as a middle name as in mine. It just said "Mary Ann Walder, born 31 Dec 1863, Slaugham, mother Mary Ann Walder". If it had been a boy, she'd probably name it Thomas after the father. That may have been the deal.

I do think they moved to London to escape a scandal as he had got her pregnant while his wife was dying but they couldnt go yet as they had her death in Nov 1863, ( death cert said phthisis for years, certified so was ill for a long time)the birth in Dec, the winter months and another family member death in Jan 1864 to get over. They wed in July 1864 in London so I think they went there in about March. I am still suprised they managed to marry as quick as they did even after 2 deaths and a birth and a move to London.

TB was contageous so no wonder Thomas needed a shoulder to cry on with a sick wife who he'd have to keep away from if she was full of bacteria in her lungs.

Ben

[GloucsYeates]

hi all,
thanks for all your replies.
I have had quite a few people tell me not to assume HALL is definatley the fathers' surname, so this is why I have gone with William spencer.
I still feel i have to elliminate him properly by finding out more info about him as possible.
There were loads of Halls born in Gloucs around the time Richards' dad would have been born.
I am just frustrated, I wish I could find out who Richards' father was.
Thanks everyone,
Dave.|help|

[benny1982]

Hi

Nothing is more annoying when a nitpicking researcher picks holes in your logical theories like "Just because Mr Hall had a woman's baseborn child given his surname as a middle name, doesnt mean the child was his" Grrr. It is very irritating. I would go with a Mr Hall as being the father, otherwise why would he be given that middle name?

He may have been a godfather but even a father could act as godfather.

Ben

[Lesley Robertson]

Hi

Nothing is more annoying when a nitpicking researcher picks holes in your logical theories like "Just because Mr Hall had a woman's baseborn child given his surname as a middle name, doesnt mean the child was his" Grrr. It is very irritating. I would go with a Mr Hall as being the father, otherwise why would he be given that middle name?

He may have been a godfather but even a father could act as godfather.

Ben

He could have been anyone the mother felt would help her child in some way, or someone she felt grateful to. In my (scottish) OPS, very few of the illegitimate children were called for their fathers (in Scotland, the Kirk often called the guilty parties in to acknowledge their sins, so the names of fathers are to be found in the Session Minute books). On the other hand, I've never seen a father serving as godparent... Is it allowed? I thought that godparents were intended as additions to the bio parents.

Middle names that turned up among my (legitimate) great Uncleas include the local Minister, the midwife and the employer of several of the boys.

In my (not terribly) opinion, Hall is more possible (not even as certain as "likely") than Spencer, but Spencer can't be ruled out. Neither can the possibility that neither of them were implcated.

Did she have siblings? Did any of them call their children "Hall"? If so, it came from the mother's family, not the father.

Lesley

[benny1982]

Hi

I see your point Lesley that the godfather was someone who was an addition to the biological father or parents. I agree that Hall is more probable, but dont rule out Spencer. I think one of them was the father. It may have been a different person but I would go with those two myself. If you ever do find any evidence that a man admitted paternity of your illegitimate ancestor (ie Bastardy Bonds, Vestry Minutes etc), then he most probably was the father otherwise why admit to it?

Ben

[Jan1954]

Further to Elaine mentioning it at post #5 in this thread, have you checked for bastardy bonds or poor law books to see if Richard's mum applied for relief from the parish? The father may be named there.

[GloucsYeates]

Thank you for all your replies.
To answer some of your qustions;
I have checked bastardy bonds, and there is nothing.
Also an extra unmentioned note is that Richards' mother Eliz had another illegitimate child some 6 years later (a daughter) with no middle name.
I wouldn't mind some comments about the latter as to a clue to Eliz's occupation. Could she have been a bit loose! or just very unlucky??
Thanks,
Dave.