Cunningham/McSweeny Brick Wall

[leevis]

Hi Everyone
Anyone got any ideas on the following Cunningham Connundrum.
I have an Elizabeth Cunningham b1885 West Ham, Essex. I have her birth record and it says that her Father was a Miles Frederick William Cunningham and a Mother of Mary Anne McSweeny.
I can find details of both of them when they were married (Miles and Mary Anne) in the 1881 & 1891 Census but they died before the 1901 census.
I am trying to find details on Mary Anne McSweeny currently. As i mentioned i can find her in the 1881 & 1891 Censuses but nothing at all before. I have thier marriage certificate and her surname was down as McSwiney so that might be where i am going wrong. Not sure which one is correct but i would think that it could be the marriage one that is right because she would have seen this and the birth certificate might be incorrect because she might not have been the one to register it?
If McSwiney is correct, the first thing i need is a birth certificate but i am drawing a blank on this so far.
On the 1881 Census she was aged 25.
On the 1891 Census she was aged 36.
I would assume that she would be born somewhere around 1855-1856 which means that there should be a record in the census for both 1871 and 1861 for a 15-16 year old in 1871 and a 5-6 year old in 1861. The marriage certificate is from 1875 so she should exist in the census somewhere.

Anyone have any ideas or can find the illusive Mary Anne for me?

Thanks
Lee

[bumblebee]

Hi Lee

One very important piece of information you have not told us, is what was Mary Ann's father's name on the marriage certificate.

I would not worry about spellling variations in the name as that was very common.

There is this birth registration - Mary Anne McSweeney, 1851 Q1 Marylebone 1 161

This 1851 census.

St Marylebone, All Souls.

Eugene McSweeny 30 Journeyman French Polisher
Margarett McSweeny 2
Mary McSweeny 28
Mary Anna McSweeny 2 Mo

Class: HO107; Piece: 1486; Folio: 500; Page: 12

Bumblebee

[bumblebee]

I don't think the one above is yours as someone has her on tree and she married a Ward.

Really need the father's name to look further.

Bumblebee

[leevis]

Next on my list is the marriage certificate. Hopefully this will provide the correct age of Mary Anne. I am not too sure if i have this already, I think that i might have assumed (wrongly) that the birth certificate i have is correct but I think it is wrong.

I think that the correct one would be one in Q1 of 1851 in Marylebone. Strange thing is though that would mean that in 1891 she should be aged 40 but she is down as 36 and in 1881 she should be aged 30 and she is down as 25??

Might be barking up the wrong tree here on this one.

I did find two interesting census records though which i cannot look at because i dont have the subscription yet.

1861 Mary A McSweeney Born abt 1851 Birthplace Marylebone, Middlesex England
1871 Mary Ann Cunningham Born abt 1853 Birthplace Marylebone, Middlesex England

These 'could' be her, fathers name would confirm but the strangest thing is that she in 1871 was a Cunningham but didnt become a Cunningham until she was married in 1875 so maybe this is wrong but i have seen wierder things.

[bumblebee]

Hi Leevis

I think as she is proving difficult to pinpoint then the best bet is to purchase the marriage certificate of Mary Ann. I know it is not always possible to purchase every certificate - but I do think that given the variations of the name you need to have an idea who she says her father is. Don't get too excited about what her age will be given as on a marriage certificate as that will only be as good as the age she decided to give at the time.

Your starting point is with Elizabeth Cunningham born 1885 West Ham, and you have that certificate giving parents names? Are you confident that is 'your' Elizabeth Cunningham.

Here is the reference for her father's marriage. - Miles Frederick W Cunningham, Mary Ann McSwiney 1875 Q2 Marylebone 1a 877 - you do say you have this certificate in your first post, so check and make sure you do not already have it.

1881 census.

West Ham

Frederick Cunningham 4
Harriett Cunningham 1
Mary A. Cunningham 25
Miles F. W. Cunningham 29
William Cunningham 2

Class: RG11; Piece: 1718; Folio: 23; Page: 9

1891 Census

Enfield

........Elizabeth Cunningham 6
Frederick Cunningham 39
Frederick Cunningham 15
Harriet Cunningham 11
John Cunningham 8
Jubilee Cunningham 4
Mary A Cunningham 36
Mary A Cunningham 1
William Cunningham 13

Class: RG12; Piece: 1085; Folio 76; Page 45

Bumblebee

[bumblebee]

1861 Mary A McSweeney Born abt 1851 Birthplace Marylebone, Middlesex England
1871 Mary Ann Cunningham Born abt 1853 Birthplace Marylebone, Middlesex England

These 'could' be her, fathers name would confirm but the strangest thing is that she in 1871 was a Cunningham but didnt become a Cunningham until she was married in 1875 so maybe this is wrong but i have seen wierder things.

The 1861 census is the same girl I found in 1851 with the Father Eugenie, I suspect this is not your Mary Ann as I think this girl is on the 1881 census after your Mary Ann has married, also she has married a John Ward according to someones tree.

The 1871 is the daughter of a James and Bridget and is unmarried so I can see no reason to connect her to your Mary Ann.




As you say the parents seem to have died by 1901 census as Jubilee Cunningham is in the Chase Farm Schools along with two other Cunningham children who could be her brother and sister.

Enfield - all born not known.

Jubilee Cunningham 14
Mary Cunningham 10
Thomas Cunningham 5

Class: RG13; Piece: 1275; Folio: 117; Page: 18

Bumblebee

[bumblebee]

Not sure when the parents died but there is a Service Record for a Frederick Cunningham born 1877 Stratford Essex, who served for 1 year and 148 days, in the Fusiliers, between 1895 and 1896 but was discharged physically unfit. He gives his father as Frederick Cunningham, 39 John Street, Bush Hill Park, Enfield.

Bumblebee

[leevis]

I'll get on the case with the marriage certificate as i think thats the only way to go on this one.

Its a bit of a sad story this one in that both Mary Anne and her husband Miles both died in 1898 and 1899 leaving all 8 kids pretty much with nothing. I think 3 of them lived together but the rest were all split up at homes/workhouses etc. My Great Grandmother Elizabeth Cunningham ended up in a home in Eastleigh.

I'll get hold of the marriage certificate and work back from there, thanks for all of your help though :)

[leevis]

While i remember, Frederick is one of mine, along with the 3 at St Marys.
Frederick ended up with an iron lung and my Nan remembers going to visit him in hospital.
Might be an interesting member to take a look at.
One more slightly interesting thing, Jubilee Eliza Cunningham was called this because she was born in 1887 (Queen Victorias Jubilee). She was always known as Eliza and my Nan was most outstanded when she found out her real name.
Thanks again

[leevis]

I just did a search of anyone called Mary McSw* between 1850 and 1860 on the birth side and found the following:

1850 Q2 Mary McSweeney - Bermondsey - 4 18
1851 Q1 Mary Anne McSweeney - Marylebone - 1 161
1851 Q1 Mary Anne McSweeny - Marylebone - 1 161
1854 Q1 Mary Ann McSweeney - Rotherhithe - 1d 501
1854 Q1 Mary McSwiney - Bermondsey - 1d 79
1858 Q3 Mary McSweeney - Holburn - 1b 429
1859 Q2 Mary Ann McSweeney - Strand - 1b 428
1860 Q1 Mary Ann McSweeney - Bermondsey - 1d 62

The census in 1891 & 1881 both state born in Marylebone so that kinda points to the 1851 entry as the one i want, however that would make her 4 years older than she put on the census. The eldest child was born around 1876 so i should really discount the last 3 maybe.
The Marriage index defo has her down as a McSwiney so i would say that the one i should be looking at would be the Bermondsey one in 1854.

I think that it is between the Marylebone 1851 (seems to early though - unless she lied about her age on the census) or the Bermondsey one which the dates would be about right but why would she put Marylebone on the census?

Any thoughts?

[leevis]

Mr Bumblebee sir.
How do you find service records?
I would love to be able to do this. Can you let me know where to look for these
Thanks
Lee

[bumblebee]

I'M A LAYDEE, I'M A LAYDEE..................

Some service records and pension records are available on A.............. pay per view. Including your Frederick.

I would not hazard a guess at which birth registration is Mary Anne's until the marriage certificate arrives and you have an idea of Father's name, at least then you can use it as a checking point when ordering birth certificates and probably save yourself the expense of ordering lots of wrong ones.

Mrs Bumblebee

[leevis]

Sorry Maaaam :)

[bumblebee]

Your forgiven. It is a sad story and for Frederick to end up with an iron lung must have been terrible.

Bumblebee

[leevis]

OK Right i now have the marriage certificate of these two.
Miles Frederick William Cunningham and Mary Ann McSwiney.
Has the father down as James McSwiney who is a Blind Maker i think.
Neither could right so they left thier mark but the thing i was really hoping for was an age of them so i could hopefully find them (her) in the census of 1871 and before.
Well strange thing is that in the age section is says "of late age"
Dunno what that means.
Anyone have any ideas or where Mary Ann or James were in the census' of 1871 and before. I think she would have been born around 1855-56.
Lee

[leevis]

I think the Age bit says "of full age". Still cant find them in any census before 1881 though :(

[leevis]

Been doing some digging and this apparently means that they were over 21 at the time. This would now mean that she (Mary Anne) would have to have been born 21 years before 1875 which would be 1854 or before, this kinda narrows the net a bit to one of these:

1850 Q2 Mary McSweeney - Bermondsey - 4 18
1851 Q1 Mary Anne McSweeney - Marylebone - 1 161 - married a Ward?
1851 Q1 Mary Anne McSweeny - Marylebone - 1 161 - married a Ward?
1854 Q1 Mary Ann McSweeney - Rotherhithe - 1d 501
1854 Q1 Mary McSwiney - Bermondsey - 1d 79

Already discussed that the 1851 entry is not her as someone said they married a Ward.
Looks likely that it could be the first one born in Bermondsy as this is the only one i can find whose father was called James
Anyone reckon this is correct?