LILLEY, BROWN or maybe something else

[Landofrainbows]

My own grandmother is proving a brick wall. On her marriage certificate she is Rhoda LILLEY, father William LILLEY, but nothing comes up in birth searches for 8th October 1884. Her Mother we believe was previously BROWN, but The husband John BROWN dies in 1882. Mother turns up again getting married to William LILLEY in 1887, her name being Mary Ann NEATH at this point. Where and in what circumstances was Rhoda, later to become LILLEY born? She is in the 1991 census as Rhoda BROWN

[Sue Mackay]

Where and in what circumstances was Rhoda, later to become LILLEY born? She is in the 1991 census as Rhoda BROWN

Can you either give us the reference for Rhoda BROWN in 1891 or tell us where she was living and where it says she was born? I couldn't immediately track down a Rhoda BROWN living with a William LILLEY, but as there were so many Rhoda BROWNs it would help to have a county at least.

[Landofrainbows]

The reference for the 1891 census is RG12/2296 Folio 57 No2bCourt 7 Tower St Dudley. She is supposed to have been born in the Dudley area, but it may have been Staffordshire, or worcestershire, The Lilley in the census is spelt Lily, but other family members tally and there are christening records for some other family members.

[bumblebee]

I have been going around in circles with the Lilleys, Neaths and Browns.

Mary Ann Neath married William Lilley 1887, going by the 1891 census Mary Ann was born 1833.

John Brown and Mary Ann (with the Brown children ie. Esther and co) was born 1842,

Do you think that William Lilley married Mary Ann Neath - there is a Mary Ann Neath around who would fit and took in the Brown children as their own because they were related in some way.

Bumblebee

[bumblebee]

Just a few reference points.

1871 The Browns

Dudley,

Ct 4 14 Oakey Wells? Street

Esther A Brown 2 born Worcestershire, Dudley
John Brown 43 Bricklayer born Staffordshire, West Bromwich
Mary A Brown 29 Born Staffordshire, West Bromwich,
Sarah Brown 8 months, Born Worcestershire, Dudley

RG10; Piece: 3011; Folio: 102; Page: 17


1881 The Browns

Dudley, 12a Campbell Street

Bertha Brown 10 months born Dudley
Edward Brown 4 born Dudley
Esther A. Brown 12 born Dudley
John Brown 54 Labourer, born Staffs, West Bromwich
Mary A. Brown 39 born Staffs, West Bromwich.

Class: RG11; Piece: 2877; Folio: 61; Page: 19;



1891 The Lilleys and Browns

Bertha Brown 12 born Dudley
Edward Brown 14 born Dudley
Esther Brown 22 born Dudley
Mary A Lily 58 Washerwoman born Staffordshire, West Bromwich
Rhoda Brown 8 born Dudley
William Lily 62 born Dudley

RG12; Piece: 2296; Folio 57; Page 27

Bumblebee

[bumblebee]

Can you give us the details from the marriage certificate of Mary Ann Neath and William Lilley, any other names on the certificate, who did Mary Ann give as her father, what was her age. Who were the witnesses.

Bumblebee

[blue eyes]

Theres a birth for a Rhoda Brown year 1883 district Hinckley county Leicestershire/Warwickshire. Though not sure how far it is from Dudley.

[Marie C..]

Esther Ann Brown was born 24th July 1868 and baptised at St. Thomas Dudley 29th March 1874! I expect most of the others were baptised there but can't find them(or the marriage of Mary Ann Neath and John Brown but I guess it's somewhere there. Lots of Browns and Neaths bap. /married at St. Thomas's
But since John Brown died in 1882 and Rhoda was born 1883 then Rhoda would have probably been Mr. Brown's child and Mary Ann married mr. Lilley sometime afterwards(or before the birth) and so Rhoda would have considered Mr. Lilley her father.
Marie
William Lilley christened 02 Aug 1829 st. Thomas' Dudley parents William Lilley and Mary.
Same old names!
Lots of lillies baptised at St. Thomas Dudley

[Landofrainbows]

Do you have a ref for this entry? On her marriage on December 12 1909. , (Wathamstow Essex Col 53) Her age is given as 25. I have 8 oct 1884 as her birthdate, but think this came from my mother.

[Landofrainbows]

In answer to Bumblebee.
The details we have of Mary Ann Neaths Marriage to William Lilley are as follows:

25th July 1887 St Andrews Netherton
William Lilley 57 Widower, Labourer, Dudley Father given as deceased
Mary Ann Neath 47 Widow, Dudley, Father Edward Matthews Puddler
Witnesses: James Round, Eliza Male

In 1868 June 1/4
Mary Ann Matthews married John Brown.

All other bits seem to fit but where the 'Neath' comes from, I've no idea.|computer|

[janbooth]

This looks as if it could be your family in the 1851 census of West Bromwich in case you do not already have it:

HO107/2026, folio 292, page 18
Pike Street

Edward MATTHEWS Head Mar 35 Pudler Cradley Stafford
Sarah do Wife Mar 30 Worcester
Mary Ann do Daur 9 Scholar W Bromwich Stafford
Eliza do Daur 6 do do
Edward do Son 5 do do
Sarah do Daur 3 do do
Hannah do Daur 1 do do

Edward & Sarah are still in West Bromwich in the 1861 census, still living at Pike Street with children Edward, Sarah, Hannah, Samuel aged 8, John aged 6 and daughter Emma aged 2. Edward is now described as a Forgeman. They have moved to Tipton by the 1871 census where Edward is now shown as a Night Watchman and Sarah as born in Tardebigg, Worcs together with children Edward, Samuel, John and Emma plus brother Joseph aged 42, a Pudler born Cradley.

Edward & Sarah are also in the 1841 census of West Bromwich (HO107/977/7, folio 29, page 10 together with a son Joseph aged 6 months. Interestingly, given the later connection, there is a Joseph LILLEY aged 25, Hammerman and presumably wife Hannah aged 25 on the previous page of the 1841 census, both born in the county.

There is a marriage registration on FreeBMD in the September qtr 1838 at Dudley, vol 18, page 285 of an Edward MATTHEWS with a choice of 2 Sarahs on the same page - one a Sarah MORRIS the other a Sarah PALMER which could be relevant.

HTH

Janet

[Landofrainbows]

Some interesting things there Jan.
I had the information from the 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871 and 1881 censuses, though Tardebigg, Worcestershire was Fardebigg with a question mark. Do you know where it is?
I have also traced Mary Ann Matthews, in service at 18 Loveday St West Bromwich in 1861 (RG9/2030) and have traced a marriage in IGI between Edward Matthews and Sarah Palmer on 15 July 1838 at St Thomas, Dudley, so at the moment am going with Palmer.
The really interesting bit is the fact that a Lilley family were living close by. I shall definitely pursue that. It might be interesting to find if there is a family conection to my Lilleys, perhaps forward a census to see how they appear.
Cheers
Eileen
Landofrainbows|cheers||

[Jane Gee]

Hi
Tardebigge is in Worcestershire only a few miles from where I live, I would say it is in between Redditch and Bromsgrove try multi maps if you can get it.

Best Wishes

Jane

[Landofrainbows]

Janet, you say:
'Edward & Sarah are also in the 1841 census of West Bromwich (HO107/977/7, folio 29, page 10 together with a son Joseph aged 6 months. Interestingly, given the later connection, there is a Joseph LILLEY aged 25, Hammerman and presumably wife Hannah aged 25 on the previous page of the 1841 census, both born in the county.'

With reference to this can you give me any more details, the reference for the Lilley family etc. Someone has looked for me but can't find them, though there is a Joseph and Hannah Lawley, both 35 and living at Toll End. Do the Lilleys you found have a family? What is their actual address?

Thanks to Jane too, I Googled Tardebigge. I presume the canal would have been there in the mid 19th century?

[janbooth]

The reference no is the same as for Edward & Sarah (spelled MATHEWS) except the page no is 9 instead of 10 and the address is Canal St. Although it looks more like LILLEY in the 1841 census, it is probably a Joseph TILLEY as this couple are in the 1851 census of West Bromwich transcribed under that name (HO107/2025, folio 228, page 7) - no children and he was born in Tipton and is a Forgeman - sorry to have misled you.

Janet

[Landofrainbows]

No problem Janet. It's all grist to the mill, and even if it's not the right family, it sets the ideas off working in another direction and that's sometimes not a bad thing.
Eileen

[Landofrainbows]

It looks as though Rhoda used both names, and her brother Edward had to make a declaration when in the army, that he was not Lilley, but Brown. Rhoda is a witness to his wedding in 1903 as Brown, but is married 6 years later as Lilley. (A Rhoda Lilley appears in the 1901 Census)
A possible reason has come to light. Her mother's second husband, William Lilley, lost his first wife in 1886. It is possible that having fathered Mary Ann Lilly's last child, before the death of his wife, he goes on to marry her after the death of his wife. In the 1911 census, Mary Ann says there was one child still living from the marriage. We suspect that is Rhoda, though a record of her birth has still not come to light.
Progress though!

[Landofrainbows]

Rhoda BROWN's birth is still untraced, Contact with Sandwell and Dudley Register Offices has drawn a blank.

[Landofrainbows]

Just to let the forum know that I have made no progress with finding my grandmother's birth.

[Raffaele]

Although her husband was dead and child born before she married Lilley would be a Brown. As mine did, in many cases they adopt the name of their true father after the marriage.

Legally she should have bee registered as Rhoda Brown

Now the choices

Births Mar 1883
BROWN Rhoda Isabel Hinckley 7a 63
Births Mar 1884
Brown Rhoda Bradford, Y. 9b 206
Births Mar 1885
Brown Rhoda Annie Wakefield 9c 62
Births Jun 1886
Brown Rhoda Aston 6d 325

Not Dudley, but that coould have been after the marriage. All Midlands.

[Landofrainbows]

I'll investigate these again, thanks, though Bradford and Wakefield are certainly not midlands, both being in Yorkshire and we have over the years been through all the possible combinations, including all the Rhodas born at the same time. Stops us getting bored, doesn't it?