NEATE in Devizes area 18-17C

[NickWilkinson]

My GGG Grandmother was Dennas Alice NEATE christened 31 Jan 1802 at Southbroom St James. Her Parents were Thomas NEATE and Eliz. She had at least five elder siblings; Sarah (chr. 1790), John (chr. 1792), Charles (chr. 1794), Hannah (chr. 1794) & Dinah (chr. 1795).
Dennas Alice married Frederick William CARTER in Lambeth in 1824. Does this datas match up for anyone out there? Any help with the other NEATE's would be most welcome.

Nick Wilkinson.

[Lindad]

Hi Nick

Have just been reviewing all the Wiltshire posts after a short visit to the Pewsey Vale / Devizes / Marlborough area...

There were many NEATE gravestones in the various churchyards that we visited - and NEATE appears to be very much a current name in the area. We saw a delivery van for a company called Neate and something (can't remember if it was Neate and Son or what!) We came across a Neate Farm and a Neate Lane (can't remember now in exactly which villages... sorry!) It was just one of those names that we commented on whenever we saw it... 'Look, there's another Neate!'

If you ever get the chance to visit, I'd recommend it!

[NickWilkinson]

Thanks Lindad.

I haven't been to that area myself, but my late father, who did much of the research into the family history, spent many days in the Devizes area trawling the archives and has hundreds of NEAT/NEATE B.M.D.'s from a small area around Devizes. 'My' Dennas Alice NEATE was born in 1802 in Southbroom to parents Thomas and Eliz. The problem is that there were two marriages for Thomas NEATE and Eliz at this time and in this area and we do not know who belongs where.....

[Lindad]

Ah, can't help you there Nick. I guess you'd have to follow the two families via their census records and see which one leads to you...

With best wishes,

Linda

[nickneate]

my family are from devizes and our surname is neate. i am only 24 and i am really interested to know about my family name

[NickWilkinson]

Hi Nick.

I don't think I will be able to help any. My late father spent quite a long time twenty years ago looking at all the information available in the Devizes area for the NEAT/NEATE name. His GGGrandmother was a Dennas Alice NEATE born abt. 1802 to Thomas NEATE and Elizabeth. The problem is that there were two Thomases married to two Elizabeths at almost the same time and no way to tell which was which and to whom the many children were born. Dennas Alice moved up to London and married Frederick William CARTER and no family information has been passed down to us concerning her family. That is my dilemma.

I now live in Zurich and have no access to the parish records etc. My only hope for any resolution of my brickwall is if any of this data matches up with someone whose family ties up with mine. Good luck with your searching.

[peanut]

Hi

I have had a look in the Southbroom baptisms for your Dennas

and it says Dennis Neat daughter of Thomas and Betty 31/ Jan 1802 I then looked for Dennis and her parents are Thomas Neat and Elizabeth Eden.

just a spelling mistake sometimes made by the vicar who put her name in the register

Peanut

[Johnzee]

Hi
I'm a new member so just catching up with some of the threads.

Frances Neate ca 1770-1/4/1814 married Evan Williams 1/1/1789 at Marlborough, Wilts.

Evan was a printer/bookseller of Welsh descent - shop at 11 The Strand, London
Frances died at her home on The Strand. Evan died in Pentonville (town, not the prison) 25/8/1835

Evan was the brother of Rev David Williams, Prebendary of Tytherington, Curate of Heytesbury (my wife's ggggf).

Don't have any further details of Frances Neate except that a Rev. Richard Cecil attended the death of one of their infant sons, date unknown.

Cheers Johnzee

[greybird]

Hello Nick,

I am descended from Thomas and Elizabeth Neate's daughter Dinah (c1795). She first married John Cole who was a gunsmith in Northgate Street Devizes. After his death in 1835, she took over the business and then remarried to Thomas Ewell Lott - also a gun maker (later of Reading). Her son George Cole married Thomas Lott's daughter Mary Ann Faulkner (widow). Their daughter Emily was my g.grandmother so I am descended from both her husbands!

I assume this makes us distant cousins.

[NickWilkinson]

Hello Greybird.

It would seem that we are definitely remote cousins as 'my' Dennas Alice NEATE had a sister Dinah with parents Thomas and Elizabeth (or Betty). The problem is finding out whether the mother was Elizabeth EDEN or Elizabeth DUCK. Do you have any information on this? Perhaps we should take this off forum; you can contact me on nickwilkinson @ bluewin.ch

Best regards,
Nick.

[NickWilkinson]

Hello Peanut.

I have only just found your posting here, hence the delay in replying.

>> I have had a look in the Southbroom baptisms for your Dennas and it says Dennis Neat daughter of Thomas and Betty 31/ Jan 1802.
I know of this baptismal entry.

>> I then looked for Dennis and her parents are Thomas Neat and Elizabeth Eden.
Where did you find this? I believe that the Thomas NEATE = Elizabeth EDEN marriage is the more likely one but so far I have no evidence to prove or disprove this.

Best regards,
Nick Wilkinson.

[B.J.D.]

Hello Nick,

I am descended from Thomas and Elizabeth Neate's daughter Dinah (c1795). She first married John Cole who was a gunsmith in Northgate Street Devizes. After his death in 1835, she took over the business and then remarried to Thomas Ewell Lott - also a gun maker (later of Reading). Her son George Cole married Thomas Lott's daughter Mary Ann Faulkner (widow). Their daughter Emily was my g.grandmother so I am descended from both her husbands!

I assume this makes us distant cousins.


It's of no help to your research, Greybird but, I spent my early childhood in Devizes.
Cole's sports shop was in the Market Place, next door to W H Smith, where I had a morning paper round. I bought my first air-gun in that same shop and indeed all our sports gear came from there.
I note that in Nicks reply to you, he refers to an Elizabeth Duck.
As a further coincidence, Duck's in Sheep street, Devizes were also a newsagent and I had a Sunday paper-round there as well.
There was a baker in Monday Market street, (James's) where I worked from 0700hrs. till 1800hrs. on Saturdays.

Thank God there was no time to send me up the chimney|nopity|

|5cups|Pop round for a cuppa.

[greybird]

Hello B.J.D

and thank you for your post. This is very interesting. I would think it very likely that a gunsmiths would evolve into a sports shop - especially if they sold airguns! I believe the original premises was in Northgate Street, but on the map this doesn't look too far away, so perhaps it is the same family. John Cole and Dinah had 2 sons, John b.1822 and Frances b.1829 so they could well have carried it on couldn't they?

I believe John Cole may have come from Stert - I am currently investigating that. We are not not sure that the Elizabeth Duck marriage is the right one - if all the children were born in wedlock, the Elizabeth Eden marriage seems the more likely, but who knows! All the families seem to stayed in the area, certainly.

[B.J.D.]

I believe John Cole may have come from Stert - I am currently investigating that. We are not not sure that the Elizabeth Duck marriage is the right one - if all the children were born in wedlock, the Elizabeth Eden marriage seems the more likely, but who knows! All the families seem to stayed in the area, certainly.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=

Hello Greybird,

Coinidence after coincidence. My wifes family hail from Stert.
We are back to "Ruben Hale" of Stert, who interestingly enough would have witnessed the "Battle of Roundway Down" in 1643.
Which (Not wishing to seem political) was a resounding success for the "Royalists".
Except of course, "Old Ironside" blew up the magazine in Devizes castle.
Who knows? A John Cole could well have been making muskets for that same
conflict.
Whoopeee!! |birthday|
I have just found a photograph showing clearly, "COLE GUN MANUFACTURER".
Taken it says pre 1885 looking down Nothgate st. from the market place.
HO_HO! another one here (1890's) showing H.B.Cole Hairdresser and Tobacconist (Market place) and one of Coles and son (singular) which was the shop I well remember as being a gunsmith and sports equipment outlet. Picture taken early 1950's.
"How about that"?

Must be time the nurse came round with my medication.

|5cups|Pop round for a cuppa

[greybird]

Hello B.J.D

and thank again for your interest. Where did you find the photographs? I would love to see them if that's possible. Are they in a publication I could get?

I gather that Stert is quite a small village so I expect they knew each other. I'm afraid my historical knowledge is not what it should be and I didn't know about the battle you mentioned - I must read up on it.

Best of luck with the medication!

[B.J.D.]

Hi. greybird,


The book containing the photograph of your Mr. Cole, Gun Manufacturer, Northgate Street is:- A Devizes Camera II. It's by David Buxton and John Girvan (just realised, I know him). Publishers are Devizes Book Press, Monday Market Street, Devizes. (£9.50 in 1986)

The book containing other pics. which might be of interest to you is "AROUND DEVIZES" in Old Photographs. Once again by David Buxton. (£7.95 in 1990)
I have just had an interesting telephone conversation with "JO" a really helpful lady at Devizes Books.
While she has neither of these copies in stock she does have a book by John Girvan (There he is again). "JO" read out some facts about Mr. Cole re:- Storage of explosives etc. and his subsequent move to The Market Place etc.
She has agreed for me to pass on her tel. no. 01380 725944.

Good luck in your quest and if you need help in that area, please feel free to ask. I have a large family in and around Devizes and I hate to think of them doing nothing.

|5cups|Pop round for a cuppa.

[greybird]

You are so kind. I will certainly speak to Jo at Devizes Books. My brother and I have been trying for some time to find out more about John Cole, but until corresponding with you, we had drawn a blank. We knew he was a gunsmith from his son's marriage cert, but in spite of my brother being "in" with gun circles (because he had, until recently, shot black powder guns), nothing had come to light. I am sure this will set us down the right road. Its nice to think that our respective ancestors lived in the same area and would have been part of the same community. Thank you again.

[vincentcay]

Hi

Researching the family back to John Cole you speak of, do you know who his father was and any further info on their children?

I think we are descended from him so any further info you have would be great.

Thanks

[greybird]

Hello Vincentcay

IGI gives him as "of Stert around 1789". This was the record of his marriage to Dinah Neate in 1815. However, I have just bought the CD with the parish records from Stert and there are no Coles. I am assuming that he was simply living there at that time. There is a possible John Cole from Chippenham, but I am not sure about that yet. I do have quite a bit of information from him onwards;

Children: Matilda 1819. John 1822. George 1824. Emma 1826. Frances 1829. Frederick 1831. Julia 1834.

John Cole died in 1835 leaving his gunmaking business to his wife (his will in Wiltshire Archives). 1841 census has her and several of their children still in Northgate St Devizes, but she has remarried Thomas Ewell Lott, also a gunsmith of Reading. Her son George married Thomas Lott's daughter Mary Ann Faulkner (widow) in 1852. Their daughter, Emily, was my g.grandmother, so I am descended from both Dinah's husbands.

Thomas Lott died in 1862, and the business passed to Frederick Cole, who continued it at 3 different premises in Devizes. It later passed to his son, Frederick and then his grandson AE Cole.

In 1871 Dinah (now calling herself Cole again) is living in Lambeth with son Frances, solicitor.

I do have more information about the later years of the gunmaking business if you're interested. Which child are you descended from?

[vincentcay]

Hi

Thanks thats a great help, i am related to Frederic Cole who i have traced back: 1830 to 1897, he was my dads Martin Cole GGfather. Any info you have on the gunmaking biz would be helpful, did they have shops in the U.S as i know they supplied the American Civil War?

Thanks

[Andrew Mead]

Hello Vincentcay

IGI gives him as "of Stert around 1789".

Don't forget this is 'member submitted' so should be treated with a great deal of suspicion and far more carefully than IGI transcriptions of the original registers.

[greybird]

Andrew is absolutely right - no information should be accepted without careful checking, which is what I have done myself. I would not expect information I give to be treated as anything other than a place to start from.

There are 2 entries for John Cole on IGI; one says "of Start", the other says "of Stert", both however have the same LDS source information:
FILM NO 170779 / PAGE 1230 / 28602. These are not anonymously submitted entries.
However, I have the Parish Baptism Record CD for Stert, and there are no Coles on it. I believe the information came from the record of the marriage to Dinah Neate, and possibly refers to his residence in Stert.

There are other possibilities given on IGI for John Cole(s) origin - both spellings seem to have been used by the family - however I have not been able so far to confirm any of these.

The other information I offered to Vincentcay comes from John Cole's will, marriage and birth certificates, census returns and material from the Wiltshire heritage Museum in Devizes.

[vincentcay]

Hi

I have a lot of info taken for Church registers, graveyard visits and from my father who got info from his father and grandfather if you are interested? I am currently reserching all the Coles born to Frederic (b1830)and Harriet Cole (b1832). I would love to find John Coles parents as that chunk is missing in my family info, i have lots of names of Coles found in Devizes cemetry but that doesn't help me at the mo as i am just guessing beyond 1780.

Regards

[greybird]

Hello Vincentcay

No I don't have anything that identifies John Cole absolutely. There are several possible candidates baptised in Chippenham - not far away,(if he was only resident in Stert, he could have come from anywhere), but there is one on IGI*, baptised in 1791 (the Stert entry says around 1789), parents Thomas and Elizabeth.

The reason I was interested in this one is that there is also a Daniel Cole born to Thomas and Elizabeth in Chippenham in 1788(IGI*). If you look for Frederick Cole on the 1841 census on FreeCen, you will find him still in Northgate St Devizes, with Dinah remarried to Thomas Lott. FreeCen allows you to move backwards and forwards to see neighbouring households. The next household, in New Park Street (they must have been on the corner), shows Daniel Cole, age 55, publican. Coincidence?

I can't see, at this point, how it would be possible to identify the "right" John Cole positively. It could be that circumstantial evidence is the best we can hope for.

Thank you for your offer of information about Frederick - I have learned a little in the last week or so - mainly from the 1871 census and John Girvan's book about Devizes - anything more is always welcome! My g.g.grandfather was his brother George - you will find details of his marriage cert on BMDshare.com. If you haven't already found it, you can get a copy of John Cole's will from the Wiltshire Archives. I will send you a pm with my email address.

[greybird]

Hello Vincentcay

Sorry, I missed the IGI* references off my previous post:

John Cole baptised Chippenham 15 May 1791. Batch no C059141
Daniel Cole baptised Chippenham 30 Nov 1788. Batch no C059141

[B.J.D.]

I have just tapped in Cole+Devizes.
First on page was:- Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain - John Cole/ William ... John Cole/ William Lott gunmakers Devizes (Read 23 times) ... I have heard of a percussion boxlock pistol of John Cole,Devizes which sold at auction in 1999 ...

One more point. The two licensed houses nearest the Northgate st.- New Park st. junction were (Looking from Northgate st.) on the left The White Hart Hotel (Demolished for Wadworths Brewery extension) and on the right The Prince of Wales (Gramps favourite watering hole). Which also is sadly no longer there.
Hope this helps.

[greybird]

Hello BJD

Thank you again! I think the quote from the Muzzle Loaders Association might be from a post my brother put on there! He is also searching for information and he is a member of that Association. Oddly enough he was a national black powder champion before we knew about the family connection to gunmaking. It is nice to know what the public houses might have been - do you know when they were demolished?

[B.J.D.]

Hello BJD

Thank you again! I think the quote from the Muzzle Loaders Association might be from a post my brother put on there! He is also searching for information and he is a member of that Association. Oddly enough he was a national black powder champion before we knew about the family connection to gunmaking. It is nice to know what the public houses might have been - do you know when they were demolished?

Hi greybird,

Will have answers shortly.

[Midgie]

Nick Wilkinson - Neate in Devizes area 18-17C

Hi Nick,
I'm a newbie here so please excuse my late message trying to catch up on this thread. I am trying to find the parents of George Carter born in Lambeth about 1834. On George's marriage cert. his father is given as Frederick Carter (occupation Mason) so I have reason to believe that Frederick William Carter and Dennas may have been his parents. The 1851 census shows Dennas as being born in Devizes so having 'Googled' "Dennas from Devizes" I've ended up here and was amazed to find your posts! Are you still interested in the Carter family and do you think I'm right in thinking Dennas may be my ancestor?

[greybird]

I have just realised something I had not picked up in my earlier posts. My G.g.grandfather, George Cole (son of Dinah Neate and nephew of Dennas Neate) married his step-sister, Mary Ann Faulkner in Newington, London (then in Surrey) in 1852. One of the witnesses to the wedding was Harriet Carter. Details of the marriage cert is on BMDshare.com.

The following year. 1853, George's brother, Frederick, married Harriet Carter, also at St Mary Newington. I have a picture of her, kindly provided by Vincentcay, who is descended from Frederick and Harriet.

Newington is not far from Lambeth. The family had links with the gun-making trade in London . Frederick was also a gunmaker, working in London to begin with and then moving back to Devizes to take over the business when Thomas Ewell Lott - his stepfather- died. Were the Carter family also in this trade perhaps?

[NickWilkinson]

Hi Midge

Yes. I am sure we have the same CARTER family. George Frederick CARTER, christened 12 Jan 1834 in Saint Mary Lambeth, was the 6th child of 11 born to Frederick William CARTER and Dennas Alice NEATE. George Frederick married Clara LEA in 1855.

Please contact me on nickwilkinson AT bluewin DOT ch for more information.

Nick


Nick Wilkinson - Neate in Devizes area 18-17C

Hi Nick,
I'm a newbie here so please excuse my late message trying to catch up on this thread. I am trying to find the parents of George Carter born in Lambeth about 1834. On George's marriage cert. his father is given as Frederick Carter (occupation Mason) so I have reason to believe that Frederick William Carter and Dennas may have been his parents. The 1851 census shows Dennas as being born in Devizes so having 'Googled' "Dennas from Devizes" I've ended up here and was amazed to find your posts! Are you still interested in the Carter family and do you think I'm right in thinking Dennas may be my ancestor?

[NickWilkinson]

Hi Greybird

The quick answwer is "YES". I will answer you in more detail offline.

Nick Wilkinson.


I have just realised something I had not picked up in my earlier posts. My G.g.grandfather, George Cole (son of Dinah Neate and nephew of Dennas Neate) married his step-sister, Mary Ann Faulkner in Newington, London (then in Surrey) in 1852. One of the witnesses to the wedding was Harriet Carter. Details of the marriage cert is on BMDshare.com.

The following year. 1853, George's brother, Frederick, married Harriet Carter, also at St Mary Newington. I have a picture of her, kindly provided by Vincentcay, who is descended from Frederick and Harriet.

Newington is not far from Lambeth. The family had links with the gun-making trade in London . Frederick was also a gunmaker, working in London to begin with and then moving back to Devizes to take over the business when Thomas Ewell Lott - his stepfather- died. Were the Carter family also in this trade perhaps?

[Midgie]

Hi Midge

Yes. I am sure we have the same CARTER family. George Frederick CARTER, christened 12 Jan 1834 in Saint Mary Lambeth, was the 6th child of 11 born to Frederick William CARTER and Dennas Alice NEATE. George Frederick married Clara LEA in 1855.

Please contact me on nickwilkinson AT bluewin DOT ch for more information.

Nick

Hi Nick,
Thank you for your reply and for the information regarding the marriage of George Carter to Clara Lea. This detail is really useful but sadly means that we do not have the same Carter family! My ancestor George married Maria Taplay in 1864 so I shall have to continue searching for the right George and father Frederick. Many thanks.

Midgie

[LeeROooo]

Hello Nick,

I am descended from Thomas and Elizabeth Neate's daughter Dinah (c1795). She first married who was a gunsmith in Northgate Street Devizes. After his death in 1835, she took over the business and then remarried to Thomas Ewell Lott - also a gun maker (later of Reading). Her son George Cole married Thomas Lott's daughter Mary Ann Faulkner (widow). Their daughter Emily was my g.grandmother so I am descended from both her husbands!

I assume this makes us distant cousins.

I stumbled across this forum tonight while researching John cole the gunsmith, I have noticed that some of you are related to John Cole, I have actually just purchased one of his guns if anyone would like to see some pictures or ask any questions I would be more than happy to share.

Lee

[greybird]

Hello Lee

I would love to see pictures of your John Cole gun. My brother and I have been trying for some time to track down some of his work. My brother will be particularly happy - quite coincidentally he has been involved with black powder shooting for many years. It was quite a surprise to learn that we had gunmakers in the family. We have recently seen examples of our other gunmaking ancestor's work, but until now, John Cole had proved more elusive.

Thank you very much for the offer.

[greybird]

I would just like to say that Lee has very kindly provided me with photos of his gun, after I sent him a private message. So exciting to see one at last!

[greybird]

Very excited! We have bought the gun from Lee - my brother brought it over to show me last night. It has lived a very hard life but it's lovely to have something that says "Cole, Devizes" on it.

Many thanks to Lee for taking the trouble to make contact and for agreeing to part with it.