The IGI

[sindylin]

I have been puzzling over an entry on the IGI website. there are three entries that show the baptism of three boys with the same father but two have a different mother (the first wife who died) They obviously got them all "done" on the same day.

I am wondering if this is correct though. I can vouch for the two younger boys, but the oldest son does not feature in the family again in particular on any of the early census returns even though he would still be young. I can't find a death for him either, he isn't mentioned in the father's will and the father goes on to have another son 9 years later and calls him by the same christian name.

My query is this, how reliable are these entries? Is it possible that someone has mis read the entry and confused it with the one above or below for instance?

Sorry if this seems a stupid question.

sindylin

[pipsqueak]

It's always possible that the oldest child died. It's possible that the oldest one was even near death at the time of the Baptism, which prompted them to get the other two Baptised at the same time. That would also explain the use of the same name for a younger child at a later date.

[Marie C..]

It is not a stupid question.
There could be several explanations.
The odd one out may have been a mistake on the part of the transcriber.
He could have been related to the other two.(the fathers being cousins)
He may have died or emigrated.
There is always an answer for everything.
If it was a submiited entry to the IGI then it may have been an error.
Submitted entries need to be treated with caution.
Marie

[sindylin]

Interesting replies....the first one could well be true....obvious in a way....how come I never think of the obvious?????|oopsredfa

I can't find a death/burial entry on the IGI and it was before civil registration as the entry is 1828.

Now for another daft question........|biggrin|

How can I tell from the entry if it was submited by a member or a genuine transcription of the parish record?:confused:


Thanks
sindylin

[Geoffers]

I have been puzzling over an entry on the IGI website. there are three entries that show the baptism of three boys with the same father but two have a different mother (the first wife who died) They obviously got them all "done" on the same day.

How do you mean, "Got them 'done' on the same day"?

Do you mean that the IGI shows all three were baptised the same day?

Do not treat the IGI as proof that an event took place. Have you checked the parish registers to confirm the entries that are shown?


I can't find a death for him either, he isn't mentioned in the father's will and the father goes on to have another son 9 years later and calls him by the same christian name.

Have you found a burial in the parish registers for this child?

[quote]My query is this, how reliable are these entries? Is it possible that someone has mis read the entry and confused it with the one above or below for instance?[q/uote]

The IGI entry should show if it patron submitted, in which case treat it with extreme sceptism, many are merely works of fiction - or if it was extracted from a register. If it was extracted from a register then there is a fair chance that the event occurred, though the events which fall into this category do contain the usual number of transcription errors. Some series of extracted entries do contain quite a few errors. ALWAYS check entries shown on the IGI before you accept them as accurate.

[Sue Mackay]

I can't find a death/burial entry on the IGI and it was before civil registration as the entry is 1828.

The IGI has very few deaths/burials. As I undertand it, and I am certainly no expert, the Mormons believe that through the sealing powers of the priesthood families can be sealed together forever. This means that family ties that are established while on earth will continue in the life after. They therefore don't consider death in this world so important



How can I tell from the entry if it was submited by a member or a genuine transcription of the parish record?:confused:

If when you bring up the Event it says
Message: Record submitted by a member of the LDS Church
then use it as a finding aid but treat it with extreme caution.

Those entries which have been extracted from parish registers, and which are therefore more likely to be correct, have "Batch Numbers"

You can enter the IGI via Batch Numbers and serach for people in a particular area via Hugh Wallis's excellent site at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm
This site also explains better than I can how Batch Numbers work

[Geoffers]

How do you mean, "Got them 'done' on the same day"?

Do you mean that the IGI shows all three were baptised the same day?

Do not treat the IGI as proof that an event took place. Have you checked the parish registers to confirm the entries that are shown?



Have you found a burial in the parish registers for this child?

[quote]My query is this, how reliable are these entries? Is it possible that someone has mis read the entry and confused it with the one above or below for instance?

The IGI entry should show if it patron submitted, in which case treat it with extreme sceptism, many are merely works of fiction - or if it was extracted from a register. If it was extracted from a register then there is a fair chance that the event occurred, though the events which fall into this category do contain the usual number of transcription errors. Some series of extracted entries do contain quite a few errors. ALWAYS check entries shown on the IGI before you accept them as accurate.


I can't find a death/burial entry on the IGI

You won't - deaths and burials on the IGI are as rare as hen's teeth.

[Guy Etchells]

First what one must understand is the IGI is not an index of parish registers or a transcription of parish registers.

The IGI is an index of the ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS).

Nothing more nothing less and as an index of ordinances it is 100% accurate.

When mis-used as an index of parish registers the best course of action is to note the details then check them against the entry in the parish register.
This may be done by ordering microfilm/fiche of the relevant register at a LDS family history center. Alternatively many County Record Offices sell microfiche copies of parish registers.
A third and possibly more convenient form of action is to purchase copies of transcripts from suppliers like Parish Chest.
Cheers
Guy

[sindylin]

Hi,
thanks for the replies everyone.

Geoffers, yes I meant they were all baptised on the same day in the same place. (I have a strange way with words!)

I have looked at the entries again and they carry a batch no and source call No. when I click on one it brings up all the other entries, the other button displays info on what it is, where it is and that it has a microfilm/fische of the records.

So, its a better bet than the other option you all mentioned.

There is obviously a death entry somewhere even if the Mormons haven't transcribed it due to their beliefs will this be on the original records too? the film title says Church Records 1776-1837 and it is on 1 microfilm 35mm.

Sindylin

[Marie C..]

IF "they got them all done on the same day" then the odd one(with the same christian name and surname) could not possibly have been an older sibling who died before the birth of the next same-named one. Are you with me?
A child of the family who died in infancy/childhood might have a subsequent one named after him.... but could not possibly be baptised on the same day.
Marie

[sindylin]

Marie,

The three that were baptised on the same day all had different christian names, two had the same parents, the other had the same father but was the child of the 2nd wife.

The father and 2nd wife then named another son they had some 9 years later with the same christian name as the oldest boy who I guess must have died.

I've ordered a copy of the CD from Parish Chest so hopefully I will soon find out who's who and whats what.

Sue,

Thanks for the link to that fab site. It makes searching for people a whole lot easier!

Thanks to everyone else, as always, I do appreciate your expert help :)

sindylin

[suedent]

Sindylin, when transcribing some parish records I did come across a case like this. In the case I found I can only assume that with the death of the first wife her child's baptism was overlooked. Perhaps they only realised that he hadn't been baptized when they were arranging for the younger children to be baptized.

[sindylin]

I reckon is might have happened a lot.

I found another case where three sons were baptised on the same day in the same family but years before.

Two of the lads baptised were brothers, and the third was their cousin, their fathers were brothers. a real family baptism eh?

sindylin

[sindylin]

Ok, I have now got the actual parish register entries and it was correct on the IGI. The three children all baptised on the same day.

Interstingly, there were 39 other baptisms done the same day by the same minister. One family had 9 children baptised! Obviously waiting for this particular minister perhaps?

I have a question:-

Is it or was it possible/likely that a father would give two of his LIVING sons the same christian name?

thanks
sindylin

[Marie C..]

Yes it is possible if they had different second christian names. I have two Johns(brothers) in one of my families; One was John Benjamin ........and the other was John George..... Both lived to old age.
Marie

[Mary Young]

There is obviously a death entry somewhere even if the Mormons haven't transcribed it

You cannot assume "there is a death entry somewhere". It depends on the time and area. Here in Scotland, for example, deaths were rarely recorded before statutory registration began in 1855. This is because Baptism and Marriage are sacraments and recorded in the Parish Register, whereas Death is not a sacrament. Very occasionally you may find a financial record of the "Mortcloth" hired out to cover the coffin.

[birdsedge]

You can enter the IGI via Batch Numbers and serach for people in a particular area via Hugh Wallis's excellent site at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm
This site also explains better than I can how Batch Numbers work

Can I jump in here, please, and ask:
How have the IGI records been extracted? Who did it and when? Why are there gaps? If there are gaps in the IGI extracted records does it indicate likely gaps in the parish records or is it just an incomplete or poor extraction. Help. How does it work?

I've been searching for the Hayward family in Gloucestershire in the batches for:
Little Dean C029961 1813-1875 and C029962 1617-1812
and there are obvious gaps. (Note I have no experience in searching the parish records yet, that's going to be my next question)

However of the children of John Heyward and Margaret there are 6 listed between 1822 and 1841 - with a suspiciously unproductive breeding gap between 1824 and 1833. There's Susannah 1822; Charles 1824; Charlotte 1833; Lucy 1835; Eliza 1836; Margaret 1839 (died 1840); and William Henry 1841. I know from a marriage certificate and census records that Tamar Hayward 1828 is one of the missing ones.

And my next question is how do I access the parish records for Little Dean? Can it be done witrhout travelling to Gloucestershire because I don't have that kind of money or time (or spously goodwill) to spare? Do the batch record numbers tie up to parish registers? Sorry, probably a dumb question, but like I say. I haven't got as far as figuring out parish registers yet.

Jacey

[Guy Etchells]

I have already answered your question (see my post dated 05-08-2008, 06:42 PM). ;)
I have added more comments here but please remember the IGI is not an index of parish registers. It never has been and never will be.
One must also remember that the online version of the IGI has all the Temple Ordinances redacted and only members of the LDS may view these.
The microfiche versions of the IGI had the Temple Ordinances in the columns labelled B.E.F.


Can I jump in here, please, and ask:
How have the IGI records been extracted? Who did it and when? Why are there gaps? If there are gaps in the IGI extracted records does it indicate likely gaps in the parish records or is it just an incomplete or poor extraction. Help. How does it work?

The IGI is made up of two sources.
1) Patron submissions : These are submissions form researchers all over the world who have sent the results of their research to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). The individuals named in this research have then been submitted to the LDS Temple Ordinances and these Ordinances indexed on the IGI.
2) Controlled Extractions : These are bulk extractions from various sources such as Gibsons Oxford Marriage Transcripts, various microfilmed Bishops' Transcripts and Parish Registers.
After the names were extracted from the various sources they were submitted for Temple Ordinances and the Ordinances indexed on the IGI.

Now if you understand what the IGI indexes you will realise that there are no gaps in the IGI as all the Temple Ordinances have been included.
Nothing can appear on the IGI until it has undergone a Temple Ordinance.



I've been searching for the Hayward family in Gloucestershire in the batches for:
Little Dean C029961 1813-1875 and C029962 1617-1812
and there are obvious gaps. (Note I have no experience in searching the parish records yet, that's going to be my next question)

The batch number C029961 is sourced from Parish registers for Little Dean, 1684-1947
The batch number C029962 sourced from Bishop's transcripts for Little Dean, 1617-1812
These should be the same between 1617 & 1812 but due to the way Parish Registers and Bishop's Transcripts are compiled errors and ommissions do occur.


However of the children of John Heyward and Margaret there are 6 listed between 1822 and 1841 - with a suspiciously unproductive breeding gap between 1824 and 1833. There's Susannah 1822; Charles 1824; Charlotte 1833; Lucy 1835; Eliza 1836; Margaret 1839 (died 1840); and William Henry 1841. I know from a marriage certificate and census records that Tamar Hayward 1828 is one of the missing ones.

It could be that the Parish Registers are incomplete or badly kept. They may suffer damage or be otherwise illegible.


And my next question is how do I access the parish records for Little Dean? Can it be done witrhout travelling to Gloucestershire because I don't have that kind of money or time (or spously goodwill) to spare? Do the batch record numbers tie up to parish registers? Sorry, probably a dumb question, but like I say. I haven't got as far as figuring out parish registers yet.

Jacey

If you can visit a LDS Family History Center you will be able to order a microfiche/film copy of the Parish Registers for little more than the cost of postage to the FHC.

Batch numbers tie up to the source call. The source call may be Parish Registers, Bishop's Transcripts or one of many compiled databases of transcribed records.

I would also note that many suppliers offer transcripts of Parish Registers on Parish Chest.
see
http://www.parishchest.com/shop/index.php?cmd=listdepts&cat=D1733
Cheers
Guy

[corkgen]

I have been puzzling over an entry on the IGI website. there are three entries that show the baptism of three boys with the same father but two have a different mother (the first wife who died) They obviously got them all "done" on the same day.

I am wondering if this is correct though. I can vouch for the two younger boys, but the oldest son does not feature in the family again in particular on any of the early census returns even though he would still be young. I can't find a death for him either, he isn't mentioned in the father's will and the father goes on to have another son 9 years later and calls him by the same christian name.

My query is this, how reliable are these entries? Is it possible that someone has mis read the entry and confused it with the one above or below for instance?

Sorry if this seems a stupid question.

sindylin

I only use IGI as a guide..there are mistakes.

Once I find something relevant I check out the records later myself.

[Marie C..]

Have you also looked at surrounding parishes?
Sometimes a few of the family are baptised in one church and the others in another nearby.... for whatever reason. Get a map of the area and look at all the parishes within a few miles. If the family moved during censuses then siblings Could have born in different parishes. Also look on different days. Sometimes it seems the IGI gives one list of family names one day and fewer(or more) on another day.

M

[benny1982]

Hi

A lot of people baptised children, usually the eldest child in one of the parents home parises, providing at least one was living away from their parish of birth. For instance, say a child was born in Toxteth, Liverpool, but the mother or father came from Speke, they might have gone back there for the baptism.

Unfortunately, some children were not baptised whereas other siblings were. This seems to be the case in one of my Suffolk lines.Richard & Judith Titshall had two sons, William born in 1760 and Richard born in 1764. William was baptised in Laxfield in 1760. Myself and a few other descendents have virtually scoured what seems to be every parish in Suffolk for Richards baptism. If it is found, I will be ecstatic.

The reason for failure to find proof of baptism may be

The parents never got round to it.
The church was closed for repairs at the time.
The parents flirted with another religion ie, Quakers, Dissenters Catholics and didnt baptise a child in a Church Of England church.
The parents were out of the county or areas for some reason at the time of the birth.
The vicar forgot to note it in the register or
the details were noted on a slip of paper that never made it to the register.

However, most children were baptised though. I think it did decrease a bit once Civil Registration began but even then, around 75% of my ancestors were baptised.

Ben

[Colin Moretti]

...
There is obviously a death entry somewhere ...Yes, but will you recognise it? I've been looking at registers for Margate recently, a frequent entry in the burial registers is
A man removed from the seaor something similar.

Colin

[busyglen]

Colin, I agree with this.

Living on an Island there are numerous accounts in the parish records of, a man found on beach, a woman removed from sea, a stranger found beside the road etc.

I think it is sad that these people will never be recognised, but this happened a lot.

Glenys

[Lesley Robertson]

Colin, I agree with this.

Living on an Island there are numerous accounts in the parish records of, a man found on beach, a woman removed from sea, a stranger found beside the road etc.

I think it is sad that these people will never be recognised, but this happened a lot.

Glenys


It was common inland as well, not just near the sea. My excitement when I found pages of death entries in the parish register for my OPS was dimmed when I realised that most entries read "a child", "a woman from Ladykirk" (next parish), etc. Only the more prominent people were actually named in the time of that particular incumbant, he mostly kept the entries as a register of how much he'd paid his gravedigger!

Lesley

[Peter Goodey]

You can get a feel for the number of deaths of unidentified people from FreeBMD. They were registered with a surname of "Unknown".

[jmduke]

There is a good slide presentation about LDS databases by W.Walker that may be viewed on the Ottawa Family History Centre Website ( http://www.ottawastakefhc.on.ca/WW/LDSDATA.html). Slides 14-17, in particular, outline some of the limitations of the IGI. - JMD

[samhuzz]

Is it just me or do others find IGI difficult to use/get results from? I have searched on there quite a bit and I don't think I have ever found any useful info.

Sam

[Colin Moretti]

On the contrary, I've found it very useful, at least for some of my families. It all depends on whether there has been a controlled extraction for the church you're interested in, if there has it can be invaluable.

Colin

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Is it just me or do others find IGI difficult to use/get results from? I have searched on there quite a bit and I don't think I have ever found any useful info.

Sam

Very useful, but as a guide only ..... everything needs checking out and that includes all transcriptions! Not always possible of course, but everyone usually does their best ....... we're not all able to visit County Record Offices or LDS Libraries.

[birdsedge]

Is it just me or do others find IGI difficult to use/get results from? I have searched on there quite a bit and I don't think I have ever found any useful info.

Sam

I've found it much easier to cope with since I discovered the batch numbers site at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm

The advantages to accessing IGI this way are:
*You can search any given batch by surname.
*All common/likely name variants are included.
*Only extracted and not submitted records are included (and it's generally the submitted ones that are most unreliable).

So say I'm looking for the Whinfrey family (which I am), a quick look at the batches for Tickhill (near Rotherham/Doncaster) gives me a bunch of (if not all) the Whinfreys on record and I dicover my girl, Esther, is the som of John Whinfrey and Anne, and by looking at all the other Whinfreys I track down 5 children within the right timeframe who are all the children of John Whinfrey and Anne. I also find a marriage of John Whinfrey and Anne Mackintosh and supporting documentation in that some of the children are listed as being of John Whinfrey and Anne and others of John Whinfrey and Anne Mackintosh. So by the time I've analysed the list of Whinfreys I'm building up a picture iof them within the parish of Tickhill.

Of course, there's still parish registers to check, but it's all clicking into place.

Of course it doesn't work as well (or at all) for my Jones relatives from Flintshire because there are hundreds of them and every family had a Thomas.

I've found this really useful to get me back beyond 1837. In fact on some lines it's taken me back to the 1600s. Though I do admit the results are random. Since some parish records are random that's probably not the fault of IGI.

All the usual caveats about checking primary sources etc.

[sindylin]

I've found the IGI really useful, it was how I found out that there was an older son born to Simeon and Elizabeth when they had him, his younger brother and younger half brother bapised on the same day. As I said in a previous post, when I double checked the actual parish register entries, they were exactly as they appeared on the IGI.

I could have checked the parish record first I suppose, but in my opinion, its easy to use it to check the IGI in the first instance.

sindylin

[benny1982]

Hi

I think a lot of parishes are on the IGI and I know that a lot of London ones are but in case you were wondering, here is a lst of London churches that are not yet on the IGI.

St George Hanover Square
St John Smith Square
St Margaret Westminster
St Giles In The Fields
St George The Martyr Holborn
St George Bloomsbury
St Paul Shadwell.

Plus numerous saller parishes that were created in the 19th century but the above listed are major churches.

Ben

[idredge]

You speak as if the Mormons only want names for their temple, that may be so but they are interested in their families also. For what its worth I have relatives who are Mormons, my gg grandfathers brother went to Utah 1850 and his granddaughter started writing to the family around 1910 Nellie also worked in the Library at Salt Lake City in the Genealogy dept so one of the early ones who started the IGI before computers.

Nellie wrote to the Vicar and then the message was passed on to members of the family who answered and they kept in touch till Nellie died in 1930. The most interesting bit is they have kept the letters in Utah of which I now have copies, ones from my g grandparents who died before I was born and just recently one from my Auntie after my grandmother had died saying where my grandfather was living in 1930 I never knew where he was and through this I have also found my grandfathers younger sister all living with another brother. I have been sent so much information I didn't have before it was like opening a treasure box. Reading about cousins Aunts and Uncle how ever many times removed is so fascinating they seem like real people now not just name on a census. I found a couple of postcards from my grandmothers brothers I didn't know that they had moved up near her when she was ill, after which I went and looked at the Elec. Rolls and found them.

It was one such letter that kept me hunting for my ancestor, one described the grandfather of her mother (her mothers words) as having velvet coats, and buckled shoes, seeing as the mother was born in the 1840's she was very old when the letter was written 1911-12, and now I have my answer I have been looking for 9 years. All of which I have shared with my relative in Utah.

At first all Nellie asked was where when people married and when where they were born, but instead of checking in the parish records they just wrote down what they thought. Nellie wanted to know about the families as well, not just names and dates as her father was still alive and he had been born over here in the family village and could just about remember it all, so they started to exchange postcards to see how the other side was living now. It wasn't until the relatives themselves started to come over here and check out the parish records themselves that they realised the mistakes. Now of course they have started to correct a lot of the mistakes that had been made.

On the IGI I only use it as a guide and always check the parish records before I believe what I see. I will always be thankful that the Mormons and my cousin Nellie started the IGI because without them I wouldn't have all the information I have. And the new relatives I have found in Utah sound very nice, I do hope to meet them one day but I don't think I will be changing my religion anytime soon


Irene