COURT MARSHALL 1837 LOOKUP

[sue alderton]

I am looking for information about the native birth place of on a John Alderton who was in the British Army in the 83rd Regiment at Foot stationed in Quebec Canada in 1837, his military number was either 451 or 471. He was court marshalled for desertion while in Quebec and returned to England to await his sentence which was transportation to Australia for 14 years, this took place in March 1838. I have contacted the Kew Records office and their preliminary search revealed no records for John Alderton however the Canada Archives indicate that there is a record of his court marshall and his gaoling in Quebec.
So hopefully someone out there may know how I can access this information or may have some information on the 83rd Regiment or even where they were garisoned when at home in the UK around 1830 to 1838 so I can get a lead to follow.
Thanks Sue

[Geoffers]

Any records should be held at TNA, you may find information in the following:

Courts Martial Proceedings Papers for 1837 are held in WO71/297-300 at The National Archives (TNA) at Kew

Correspondence and Papers for 1837 are in WO72/88-91

Some District Courts Martial papers are in WO86/1 and WO86/3

General Courts Martial Papers, abroad are in WO90.

Letters relating to Courts Martial in 1837 are in WO3/545-547

Description Books are probably the best hope - as well as a decription, they record age, place of birth and I think they are in WO25/266-688

The Muster books relating to the 83rd, held at TNA, might be worht a look - for 1837 these are in WO12/8696 and WO12/8697

[sue alderton]

Thanks for the prompt reply Kew Records Office said there were no records of my ggggrt grand father's military career even though it was short. I searched WO10, WO12and WO97. But if you think it worth the cost I will pursue a search in the other categories you suggested.

Sue

[hughesrj]

Assuming you've searched the NSW BDM (assuming he died in NSW) - and that the DC shed little information on his background??

[Hugh Thompson]

Hi Sue, These are the only Aldertons in NSW registry BDM.in that time period. Luck Hugh.;)

Number Last Name Given Name(s) Father's Given Name(s) Mother's Given Name(s) District
2761/1859 ALDERTON JOHN AGE 30 YEARS DIED BROULEE BROULEE
8478/1876 ALDERTON JOHN GEORGE DIED NEWCASTLE NEWCASTLE
10769/1876 ALDERTON JOHN G JOHN MARTHA WINDSOR
15608/1893 ALDERTON JOHN UNKNOWN UNKNOWN WINDSOR
2763/1907 ALDERTON JOHN HENRY B MARY A ST LEONARDS
7378/1910 ALDERTON JOHN JOHN ANNIE C M WAGGA WAGGA
6097/1922 ALDERTON JOHN P PATRICK MARTHA WELLINGTON
3748/1928 ALDERTON JOHN F L RICHARD L MINNIE L LIVERPOOL
13338/1934 ALDERTON JOHN JOHN MARY WINDSOR
15801/1935 ALDERTON JOHN JONATHAN W ELLEN NEWCASTLE
11504/1939 ALDERTON ARTHUR JOHN HENRY ANNIE NORTH SYDNEY

[Geoffers]

Thanks for the prompt reply Kew Records Office said there were no records of my ggggrt grand father's military career even though it was short. I searched WO10, WO12and WO97. But if you think it worth the cost I will pursue a search in the other categories you suggested.

If he was in the army then he should appear in a description book, a description book should record just that, plus his place of birth - which is what you are after. In your shoes I would try that - looking for the description book closest to when he got in trouble.

Do you know roughly when he enlisted to narrow down the description books that you try?

[hughesrj]

Sue - the website for the the ship "Bengal Merchant" (http://bengal.liah.org/) which transported convicts here is 1838 has a John Alderton aged 21, sentenced to 14 years. Sailed 28 March, 1838 from Sheerness, United Kingdom ; arrived 21 July, 1838, Botany Bay, Australia. This would put his dob ~ 1817. (Assuming the accuracy of this site.)

There is a ticket of leave that was granted (see the SAG website)

Last name Alderton
First name John
Ship Bengal Merchant
Year 1838
Native place NR
Trade or calling NR
District Quebec L.Canada
Ticket no 44/2079
State Records shelf ref 4/4192
State Records reel no 954


rj

[hughesrj]

NSW state archies list the Bengal Merchant logs as kept in microfiche:

1838 Jul 23 BENGAL MERCHANT Page 003 Serial 1837_1841

Some passenger information is contained

rj

[sue alderton]

Hi

I would like to thank all those who gave me much needed suggestions. I have John Alderton's (born 1806? Essex?) TOL, Pardon and transcript of his Court Marshall from Kew Records Office and a transcript of his Trial and imprisonment in Quebec from the Canada Archives but none of these documents have his birthplace indicated on them. So I will contact the State Archives of NSW and see if they can locate the microfische as suggested by Hugh and I will see if the Kew records Office can locate the description books for the period around his court marshall as suggested by Geoffers.

Once again thanks guys

Sue

[ExDevonport]

I am looking for information about the native birth place of on a John Alderton who was in the British Army in the 83rd Regiment at Foot stationed in Quebec Canada in 1837, his military number was either 451 or 471. He was court marshalled for desertion while in Quebec....
Thanks Sue

Sue,

It would be wise also to check with the National Army Museum Chelsea. Through a friend I obtained my grandfather's military record from their archives. His enlistment also contained details of a court martial for being AWOL, the period was 1851.

James.

[sue alderton]

Thanks James I have followed through on all the other suggestions offered by the kind people who replied to my request earlier but no success because he was court marshalled and not pensioned off. So I will contact the Museum and see if there is any information, thanks again,

Sue

[crisGloss]

Hi Sue

I am a newbie, so I am unsure from the posts whether you are still seeking info on the 85th. In any case the info below would extend your history of John Alderton's Regiment.

Henry Stooks Smith wrote a book [1851] on:

"The Officers of the 85th, Bucks Volunteers, The Kings Light Infrantry Regiment, from 1800 to 1850".

It contains details of the movements of the regiment, starting from Buckingham where it was raised in 1793. The account says that the 85th embarked for Canada from Cork, Ireland.

Best wishes
Chris

[sue alderton]

Thanks for the posting Chris my ggggrt grand father was in the 83rd Regiment not the 85th did Smith include this regiment in his book?

Sue

[crisGloss]

Hi Sue

I have to stop working late at night!|dunce2||dunce2||dunce2|

"The Officers of the 85th, Bucks Volunteers, The Kings Light Infrantry Regiment, from 1800 to 1850" is online in the google book collection.

When I get a chance I'll look. I am sorry; I have not got time time to reread your history |oopsredfa|blush|...Have you looked at this site:
BRITISH REGIMENTS IN CANADA

freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~crossroads/regiments/

On the Edwin Fox, which was carried convicts to Australia from Plymouth in 1858, there was a convict convicted for desertion in Quebec, which says to me that convicts convicted overseas were first sent to England, to await their transportation to the colonies. They experienced the "Hulk System". The hulks were large vessels without masts which had been line-of-battle ships or frigates, fitted up for the reception of male convicts sentenced to be transported. These floating prisons were moored near a dock-yard: "so that the labour of the convicts could be applied to the public service".:

"It will be hardly credited that there are usually about 3000 men in this country thus employed".[1834]

They were then sent out in gangs to work on shore, guarded by soldiers.


"A correct chronicle is kept of the conduct of each individual , and the captain, jointly with the chaplain, has the privilege of recommending annually a certain number as fit objects for a mitigation of punishment; so that it very frequently occurs that a convict sentenced to seven years transportation, only serves three and a half or four years"
hotkey.net.au/~jwilliams4/hulks34.htm

There were two "out stations" [of the hulk system] under British Government control at Bermuda (1829-1864) and Gibraltar (1842-1870) and two hulks stationed in Ireland at Cork and Dublin under part Irish administration (1823-1838).

This site gives you an understanding of the system: royal-arsenal.com/convicts.html

The type of record available is demonstrated in the Tasmanian Catalogue of Fische
(aigs.org.au/tasmaniaff1.htm#CON)

Might help....
Cheers
Chris

[crisGloss]

Hi Sue
accidental tourist

sorry

Chris

[crisGloss]

Sue
Good news:|cheers|
Event(s)
Birth: 1806
Langham,Essex,England
Christening: 16 Sep 1810

Death: 22 Sep 1893
"Gospers Farm"Fairy Rd. Windsor nsw
Burial:
Methodist Cem. McGraths Hill nsw
Parents
Father: John Alderton
Mother: Elizabeth(Sarah)
Marriage(s)
Spouse: Mary Coffee
Marriage: 22 Oct 1840
Lower Portland nsw
Other Event(s)
Emigration: 21 Jul 1838
"Bengal Merchant"convict
Personal Information
Occupation: 1835
Quebec Soldier
Occupation: 1839
Lower Portland nsw Farm Labourer

regards
Chris

[hughesrj]

Hi Sue - you may find the authors of the following site helpful in the exact location of John Alderton's grave. His name does not appear in the immediate transcriptions, however 6 of the people buried are unknown.

http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/cemetery/mcgraths_hill/

roy

[crisGloss]

Hi Sue

I am not having much success with my research (no service for a fee membership yet), so let's see you break through:).

As hughesrj says there is a Bengal Merchant ship site, and persons arriving on that ship are tagged with a person who has claimed interest in that convict. Your John A is tagged by elcottam AT bmr DOT net DOT au. Don't take any notice of the age in the entry (http://www.bengalanmine.com/scgi-bin/csvsearch.pl?search=alderton ) as it is incorrect, which is not the first time for convict records.

Chris

[sue alderton]

Hi Chris and Hugh

I have looked at the Bengal Merchant site and contacted elcotter etc in the past but no luck. I have been in contact with the Hawkesbury Historical society in the past and yes one of the graves is John Alderton, his son John Alderton and his wife Mary but which one no one knows?

Also the IGI site is incorrect even though it says John Alderton was born in Langham Essex in 1806 there is no record of this in the Parish records of Langham or the other 10 parishes surrounding Langham that I have paid to have searched over the last 2 years. I contacted the submitter of this information and she has no documented evidence that John Alderton was born in Langham. His convict indents only say he was born in Essex no mention is made of a Parish.

So that is why I have put my request out there for any one who may have come across a John Alderton born around 1806/1807 somewhere in Essex.

I have paid to have his court marshall papers transcribed from Kew but they do not shed much light on the Parish.
Geoffers suggested the description documents for his regiment I will get someone to look into these for me when I can afford it. They may shed some light on his birth parish.

But to both of you thanks heaps for the information after 2 years I have been through most of the available stuff that is online. I now have to pay a researcher to follow through on a few leads when I get enough funds.

Thanks again Sue

[crisGloss]

"...hopefully someone out there may know how I can access this information or may have some information on the 83rd Regiment or even where they were garisoned when at home in the UK around 1830 to 1838 so I can get a lead to follow..."

[1] Detailed History of 83rd
You might be getting a bit tired of explaining your journey to new people; I would understand that. And you obviously know a lot more than I.|bowdown| However [that doesn't deter newbies; right?:)], I am researching a parallel universe for my ancestor [see item in this forum] and I am learning from an interest in your case.|5cups|

I know you have had summaries before. There is, however, a very detailed history of the 83rd here: www.geocities.com/rurmuseum/bray83.rtf

[2] Payrolls and muster books
A specialist on Annual Returns of British Regiments Stationed in Nova Scotia, 1807 - 1865, offers his services as follows:

Soldiers’ discharge papers in particular are a good source of information: they generally provide such details as a soldier’s place of birth, age on recruitment, height, hair and eye colour, and his occupation at the time of recruitment. More recent discharge papers may list the soldier’s father’s name and/or name of spouse and miscellaneous information on reason for discharge. Discharge papers have not survived for all soldiers but it’s worthwhile looking for them.

Discharge papers are not, of course, available for soldiers who died in service, but you can often assemble the same information by tracking the soldier through the payrolls and muster books.

I am able to undertake a LIMITED amount of voluntary research at the Public Records Office: e-mail me on [email protected]
Please be reasonably specific in your query: I regret that, as much as I would like to help, I do not have time to devote to more speculative searches such as “John Smith who may have served in Nova Scotia sometime between 1810 and 1845”.

[3] I wonder if you have explored the Hulk Registers?

http://www.aigs.org.au/tasmaniaff1.htm#CON

AJCP M4882.
Registers of convicts on hulks in Portsmouth. (Piece 9)
9. Portsmouth:
Hulks “Leviathan”, “Laurel”, “York” & “Hardy” 1805-1836.
Letter books for Chatham, Woolwich & Devonport. (Pieces 10-13)
10. Letter book of “Euryalus” 1837-1843.
11. Letter Book of “Fortitude” 1837-1843.
12. Letter Book of “Ganymede” & “Warrior” 1837-1844.
13. Letter Book of “Justitia” 1837-1839

( Film Gen 20)

AJCP M4883.
Letter books for Woolwich & Portsmouth. (Pieces 13-16).
13. Letter Book of “Justitia” 1837-1839.
14. Letter Book of “Leviathan”. 1837-1839.
15. Letter Book of “York” 1837-1843.
16. Convict Hulk Establishment Letter Book. 1847-1849.

(Film Gen 21)

[4] Time Line
Sometimes working backwards is a help. Can I suggest you show a timeline from John Alderton arriving in NSW, because you seem to have a lot of information from there on: TOL [date?], PARDON etc. Then others could estimate the dates for:

Marriage, and where

Possible children and where: For example: you might investigate this person to see where it leads:
NSW Registry: V1840357 54/1840 ALDERTON ELIZABETH Father: JOHN , Mother: MARY


Last time documented alive, and where, to know death period

Possible living descendants and where:
For example, there is a K. Alderton in the phone book for Windsor NSW...(02) 4577 2413

If the Aldertons go back beyond 1840 in Windsor then there is is no point looking there, hey? and John Alderton who died in Newcastle is a better lead:
8478/1876 ALDERTON JOHN Father:GEORGE NEWCASTLE

Will get tired and go away soon...|computer|
Chris

[sue alderton]

Hi Chris

I hope I did not sound like I was snubbing your suggestions because I welcome any new input and you have suggested a site I did not even think of researching the Hulk Registers, I know John Alderton was sent back to England on the ship Statesby in 1837 to await transportation to Australia so this link may be interesting to read about.

I have the Memoirs of the 83rd from geocities and yes Elizabeth is John Alderton's daughter because John married Mary Coffee in 1840 at Portland Head NSW near Windsor in 1840 and commenced having their family. I have also telephoned all the Aldertons in the telephone book in the Windsor Kurrajong Riverstone area of NSW because that is where they hale from. I have met up with many family members some in nursing homes and one lady at Gilgandra who was 90 years old. I have gleaned a lot of info from the State Archives, SAG and the Mitchell Library and Windsor Library and I have been in contact with the Hawkesbury Historical Society. The Kew records Office in London said that they do not have records for the military career of my ggggrt grand father because he was court marshalled and dishonourably discharged but they did have the record of his court marshall. All I am really looking for now is his birth place so I can search the parish records for other ancestors and see how far back I can go.

Thanks for your help,

Sue

[crisGloss]

NSW Registry: V1840357 54/1840 ALDERTON ELIZABETH Father: JOHN , Mother: MARY

My bad. I jumped to the conclusion that NSW Registry entry V18402064 162A/1840, which as you say gives a surname "Coffee" for mother: "Mary", was a different person from entry V1840357 54/1840 [above], which does not.

What gaol was he in, in Quebec? Are there records there?

I have almost exactly the same challenge: A soldier court-martialed in a foreign country; sent to Australia as a convict; and no-one knows his birth place. Furthermore, I don't know his regiment! Would you be so kind as to tell me, thru my thread: "Name of Court Martial in Mauritius", how in similar circumstances you found out his Regiment.

Oh well, as I said, I am a beginner. I notice you did not give a time-line, so I will leave it to the experts.

Good luck
Chris

[crisGloss]

"I have put my request out there for any one who may have come across a John Alderton born around 1806/1807 somewhere in Essex...I now have to pay a researcher to follow through on a few leads when I get enough funds.

"Bengal Merchant"... which transported convicts here in 1838 has a John Alderton aged 21, sentenced to 14 years. Sailed 28 March, 1838 from Sheerness, United Kingdom ; arrived 21 July, 1838, Botany Bay, Australia. This would put his dob ~ 1817, assuming website is correct...". (quote: 14/7/08 ,hughesrj)

Summary
Hope you don't mind me listing the information that seems reliable, and the gaps:

1817 John A born Essex |birthday|

1830: 83rd @ Glasgow
1832 : 83rd @ Limmerick
1833: 83rd @ Dublin
Apr 1834: 83rd @ Cork
? 1834: John now eligible to join Army, serve his country, and see the world (aged 17)
Jan-Apr, 1834: John enlisted in 83rd Regiment |cheers|

Apr & May 1834: 83rd embarked in the ships "Brunswick" & "Rickers" |wave|
May & Jun 1834: 83rd arrived in Halifax, Nova Scotia
1837: John convicted in Quebec
1837 : John sent to Eng on ship "Statesby" |wave|

1837 : John arr. where? in England
1837: John held where ? pending transport
May1838: John sent to NSW on "Bengal Merchant", aged 21 |wave|

July 1838: John arr. Botany Bay
1839: John held where?
? Date: John released where? on T.O.L. ?date, and now eligible to marry

? Date: John moved where |wave|

? Date: John died; buried where ?

regards
Chris

[crisGloss]

? 1834: John now eligible to join Army, serve his country, and see the world (aged 17)


The history of Admiral 'Jacky' Fisher says:


"Aged 13 Fisher joined the Royal Navy on 12 June 1854". :o

This was the Navy, not the Army, but it does raise the question of what was the minimum age.

Chris

[crisGloss]

1817 John A born Essex |birthday|

It is not shattering because searches work on approximations anyway, but if John A was born after July, then he would be 22 in 1838, assuming the age information was recorded in connection with his transportation, not his court martial.

So the birth date is 1816 or 1817, assuming the age information was correct at the time of the record.

Minor point
Chris

[sue alderton]

Thanks Chris I have John Alderton's "Convict Indents" from the State Archives completed by himself in 1837 on which he states his age as 31 (which confirms he was born in 1806/1807), he would have no reason to lie then as he was being sent to Australia for 14 years. I already have information that he was in the 83rd in 1833 because I have his court marshall papers of 1837 from Kew and they record that he was sentenced to 6 weeks in solitary confinement in Limerick in 1833 for 3 nights AWOL in Glasgow.

The information on the 83rd's locations before theit duty in Canada is interesting thankyou where did you find this?

I have all John's details in Australia, he was assigned to the Doyle family at Portland Head to finish out his sentence where he met Mary Coffee also a convict. They married in 1840 at the residence of Andrew and Sophie Doyle "Uliterinburra" and stayed on after they received their pardons and Tol respectively. Eventually moving to Wilberforce and finally Windsor where John died in 1892 and an Obituary of him appears in the "Richmond & Windsor Gazette" commemorating his life because he was an unofficial officer of the Salvation Army and was very generous with the needy in the area.

So thankyou for the information that you have found so far keep looking for me I am after his birth place but seem to have hit a brick wall in the UK the only other 2 John Aldertons I have found that fit the criteria I have since discounted as my family members as I have been in contact with recent family of them in the UK.

But thanks heaps again

Sue

[crisGloss]

...keep looking...

I thought I would update the data so that it makes it easier for others to help...

Chronology of Events
1805/6: Born in "Essex" (Convict Indents" from the State Archives completed by himself in 1837 states his age as 31; ie: born 1805/06 )
1822: now eligible to join Army (@ age 17); based on other soldiers' age of enlistment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Movements of 83rd Regiment:
[source: www.geocities.com/rurmuseum/bray83.rtf]
1829 - 16 Aug 1830: @ Glasgow
1 Nov 1831- 23rd Oct 1832: @ Castlebar
29 Oct 1832 - 19 Aug 1833: @ Limmmerick

1833: John sentenced to 6 weeks solitary confinement in Limerick for 3 nights AWOL in Glasgow.

19 Aug 1833 - 5 Apr 1834: @ Dublin

[5 Apr 1834, the 1st division embarked on the "Innisfaile" steamer for Cork]
6 Apr 1834 -15 May 1834: @ Cork

[21 April and 15 May 1834: 83rd embarked on the freight ships "Brunswick" and "Rickers"; & landed at Halifax, Nova Scotia, on 26 May and 20 June 1834]
May/Jun 1834 -Jul 1837: @ Halifax

[83rd embarked for Quebec on Her Majesty’s frigate "Vestal", and sloop of war "Champion". HQ landed at Quebec on 12 Jul, and the rest on 13 Jul 1837; occupying the "citadel barracks"]

12 Jul - 9 Dec 1837: @ Quebec
9 Dec 1837 - Jan 1838: @ Montreal
-----------------------------------------------------------
1837: John was Court Martialed (military number was either 451 or 471)
[Quote Sue: "It would be wise also to check with the National Army Museum Chelsea...I obtained my grandfather's military record from their archives. His enlistment also contained details of a court martial for being AWOL; the period was 1851."]

1837: John in Military Prison [where?]

[Quote, Geoffers: "...he should appear in a description book, a description book should record just that, plus his place of birth - which is what you are after. In your shoes I would try that - looking for the description book closest to when he got in trouble..."]

1837: John sent to England on ship "Statesby" [to where?]
Mar 1838: Transported to NSW

[crisGloss]

I thought I would update the data so that it makes it easier for others to help...

Chronology of Events
1805/6: Born in "Essex" (Convict Indents" from the State Archives completed by himself in 1837 states his age as 31; ie: born 1805/06 )
1822: now eligible to join Army (@ age 17); based on other soldiers' age of enlistment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Movements of 83rd Regiment:
[source: www.geocities.com/rurmuseum/bray83.rtf]
1829 - 16 Aug 1830: @ Glasgow
1 Nov 1831- 23rd Oct 1832: @ Castlebar
29 Oct 1832 - 19 Aug 1833: @ Limmmerick

1833: John sentenced to 6 weeks solitary confinement in Limerick for 3 nights AWOL in Glasgow.

19 Aug 1833 - 5 Apr 1834: @ Dublin

[5 Apr 1834, the 1st division embarked on the "Innisfaile" steamer for Cork]
6 Apr 1834 -15 May 1834: @ Cork

[21 April and 15 May 1834: 83rd embarked on the freight ships "Brunswick" and "Rickers";|wave|

& landed at Halifax, Nova Scotia, on 26 May and 20 June 1834]
May/Jun 1834 -Jul 1837: @ Halifax

[83rd embarked for Quebec on Her Majesty’s frigate "Vestal", and sloop of war "Champion". HQ landed at Quebec on 12 Jul, and the rest on 13 Jul 1837; occupying the "citadel barracks"]

12 Jul - 9 Dec 1837: @ Quebec
9 Dec 1837 - Jan 1838: @ Montreal
-----------------------------------------------------------
1837: John was Court Martialed (military number was either 451 or 471)
[Quote Sue: "It would be wise also to check with the National Army Museum Chelsea...I obtained my grandfather's military record from their archives. His enlistment also contained details of a court martial for being AWOL; the period was 1851."]

1837: John in Military Prison [where?]

[Quote, Geoffers: "...he should appear in a description book, a description book should record just that, plus his place of birth - which is what you are after. In your shoes I would try that - looking for the description book closest to when he got in trouble..."]

1837: John sent to England on ship "Statesby" [to where?] |wave|

[Quote crisGlss: "...floating prisons were moored near a dock-yard: "so that the labour of the convicts could be applied to the public service...A correct chronicle is kept of the conduct of each individual..Two hulks were [also]stationed in Ireland at Cork and Dublin under part Irish administration (1823-1838)]

Mar 1838: Transported to NSW on "Bengal Merchant"

[the system cut me off] :D Continued........

July 1838: John arr. Botany Bay
1839: John held in Colonial prison; where?
?DATE: John assigned to the Doyle family at Portland Head to finish out his sentence
1840: John marr. Mary Coffee, also a convict; at the residence of Andrew and Sophie Doyle "Uliterinburra" :)
1840: Their daughter Elizabeth born :)
?Date: John released on T.O.L.
?DATE: They moved to Wilberforce and finally Windsor
1892 John died; and an Obituary of him appeared in the "Richmond & Windsor Gazette"; which refers to his work with the Salvation Army
1892 John buried at Windsor

Chris

[crisGloss]

1829 - 16 Aug 1830: @ Glasgow
1 Nov 1831- 23rd Oct 1832: @ Castlebar
29 Oct 1832 - 19 Aug 1833: @ Limmmerick

1833: John sentenced to 6 weeks solitary confinement in Limerick for 3 nights AWOL in Glasgow.

When I sat back and looked at the sequence of events, I saw some significance in a soldier going all the way to Glasgow: the 83rd were stationed there in 1830. It seems reasonable to conclude that he was in the 83rd as early as 1830.

It is a long way to go, with the attached risks, without there being some special significance attached to Glasgow. See mud map of adventure:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/FjP3oKF55JmKYPRyOk8_Zw?authkey=uC_gFNYT8jc

Some possible scenarios are:
[1] He went back to see a woman; or
[2] He had a debt to collect; or
[3] His family moved to Glasgow at some stage, and that is how he came to enlist in an Irish Regiment. Perhaps the Regiment was on his "home turf " [ at that stage in his life], and he went back to see them. Either way, there was some powerful attraction to go that far.

It might have sounded too far fetched to be accurate: Limmerick to Glasgow, but a history of transport in Ireland states:


By the mid-1830’s there had been great progress - the canals had been largely completed, plans were in hand for major improvements of the Shannon navigation, there were regular passenger and freight services on road and water and, in 1834, the Dublin & Kingstown Railway opened its 51/2 miles line of 4ft. 81/2 in. gauge from Westland Road to Kingstown (now Dun Laoghaire).

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SFK/RegDists.html#Suffolk%20Hundreds

Hometown Suffolk?
Another scenario instead of just looking at Essex, is based on the notion that the populace in those days did not have a map of the localities on the kitchen fridge. The precise boundaries of Essex and Suffolk were probably vague notions for most people.

When you consider also that the boundaries changed from time to time, then you have a recipe for error. When you look at the maps of the time there is an area of Suffolk around Layham and Capel St Mary, Suffolk, which the ordinary person might have thought was in Essex [ see rough coverage of counties: in county mud map:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Dl4D6TUBf-bV49GV6PI5uA?authkey=uC_gFNYT8jc]

I have thrown in a few Aldertons known in the counties.

Food for thought...
Chris

[sue alderton]

Hi Chris I do so love your interesting posts you put some really good links into them. Where on earth do you get the maps from and how do you put the personalised names on them?

I have been in contact with present day relatives of John Aldorton born in Blackmore,unfortunately not connected to me as this John remained in Essex all his life and did not get transported.

The Layham Aldertons could be relatives but oral family information has it that John's parents names were Elizabeth and John. Family info also says they came from Langham Essex but cannot find any John Alderton born or baptised in Langham in 1805 to 1810. Have had the Parish records looked up by a friend in UK and he sent them to me.

I read a the diary record of the 83rd and it gives more specific information on the stationing of the regiment in the years 1830 to 1837, I think John could have joined either when it returned from India in 1829 when it was stationed in Portsmouth or when it went to Glasgow in 1829/30 as well. Maybe thats why he deserted he may have joined and hated it. It is funny how they did not court martial him until 1833 even though he deserted in 1830 in Glasgow?

Also how do I go about getting info from the Military Museum in Chelsea?

And thanks for all the interesting info

Sue

[crisGloss]

"It would be wise also to check with the National Army Museum Chelsea. Through a friend I obtained my grandfather's military record from their archives. His enlistment also contained details of a court martial for being AWOL; the period was 1851."
James.
Hi Sue

I think all those TV shows like CSI and Criminal Intent are having a forensic affect on me. :D As you can tell, I like mud maps to see what light they throw on the mystery.

[1]. AWOL Glasgow: I think John must have returned to the garrison; and so avoided Court Martial.

[2]. Source of My Mud Maps: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=halifax&daddr=Quebec,+Quebec&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=47.931066,-71.235352&sspn=14.107585,30.410156&ie=UTF8&z=5

[3]. Screen Capture & Labels: http://www.techsmith.com/screen-capture.asp?CMP=KgoogleStmhome&gclid=CPWH--_E_JYCFQkiagodsjsGXg Being a web developer we like to show off a bit.

[4]. Search National Army Museum: It was James' idea (see quote above); but you might ask newbie: "samwise" (is "mins from the Nat. Archives" http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37803]), if he knows a competent person |idea| who might do a search for you, inexpensively ( TNA is not far from Chelsea Museum: see map extract :http://picasaweb.google.com.au/peligrosoreir/AldertonMudMaps?authkey=uC_gFNYT8jc#52700489192422 81378)

[5] The Army Museum says however: "a researcher's initial approach should be to the appropriate regimental...museum". |scold| Unfortunately the Museum of the Royal Irish Regiment [at Ballymena, Ireland; see mud map:http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/ph...ey=uC_gFNYT8jc (http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/BmRi92_YiIokbj9NFNSgnw?authkey=uC_gFNYT8jc)] (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sHF4EIirD67BxEkJbBaiGw?authkey=uC_gFNYT8jc]), is in the process of being "relocated" (http://www.armymuseums.co.uk/amot-search/default.asp?Category=AMOT&Service=Museum-Display)|sad1|

For those who have need to track the names of a Regiment, The National Army Museum has a searchable list!|wave| Click on Succession of Titles in the side menu [http://www.armymuseums.org.uk/ancestor.htm].

Chris

[crisGloss]

29 Oct 1832 - 19 Aug 1833: @ Limmmerick

1833: John sentenced to 6 weeks solitary confinement in Limerick for 3 nights AWOL in Glasgow.


Hi
When literally wandering around my State Library looking for info on my for GGG [deserter Mauritius; thread this forum], I stumbled across:

THE DESERTER INDEX

1828-1840

"An index to soldiers of British army regiments... who
deserted their units and whose names were published in the
Police Gazette between 1 January 1828 and 31 December 1840
in the following order:
Name;Regiment; Age; Birthplace; Trade, Publication Date

ALDERTON John 83rd Foot; 23; Langham, Essex; Labourer; [date withheld]

[SIZE="1"]Compiled and published by members of:
Manchester & Lancashire Family History Society
Clayton House
59 Piccadilly
Manchester
M1 2AQ
Tel: 0161 236 9750
Fax: 0161 237 3812



The index does not provide all of the information published and users are recommended to refer to the original publications to verify the details provided and obtain the additional details. A full set of bound copies covering the period 1828-40 (and beyond up to 1845) is available at the Public Record Office, Kew in Class HO75.

The LDS film numbers
relating to the copies at the State Library of New South Wales are as follows:

1830 0951965 (Jul-Dec Missing)

Unfortunately, the Index stopped at 1840, and my GGG deserted in 1854. Some people have all the luck.

Chris

[crisGloss]

Hi

Just the "forensic" back. :)

A thought: John's name may have been spelt originally as "Jonathon", which might escape some tight name searches.

Looking for John's parents or siblings who may have died in Essex, I extracted all the Aldertons [and Eldertons] who have died in Essex:


keeping any persons alive between 1805 [earliest likely date John born] and 1900 [mother then at least 108 years];
eliminating any woman and obvious partner aged >50 in 1805 (i.e. of non-child bearing age);
eliminating any candidate child born after 1840 [John' mother's max child bearing years being > age15 and < age 51, even if he was the youngest child].


This is what was left [from the "Burial Index"]:

Burial Date Forename Surname Age Place / Details (in Essex)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
28 May1870 Elizabeth ALDERTON 90 Takeley, Holy Trinity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming the latter is not his mother, looks as if they moved from Essex and died elsewhere!

An extraction of persons who died 1805-1840 from Suffolk, eliminating any females who died after 1833 [when James was known to be in the Army], produced the following result (surname Alderton ):

Burial Date Forename Age Place / Details (in Essex)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13 Aug 1840 Albert 6m Hessett, St Ethelbert
7 May 1835 Anthony 83 Holbrook, All Saints
16 Apr 1840 Benjamin 13 Rishangles, St Margaret
5 May 1832 Charlotte 15 Great Whelnetham, St Thomas a Becket
28 Nov 1834 Daniel 4 Walsham le Willows, St Mary
25 Jan 1838 Edward 77 Rickinghall Superior, St Mary
20 Dec 1831 Elizabeth 69 Cotton, St Andrew |idea|
10 Apr 1836 George 25 Troston, St Mary
15 Feb 1836 George inf Harkstead, St Mary
5 Apr 1839 George 3 Bury St Edmunds, St Mary
2 Mar 1839 George Anthony 69 Copdock, St Peter
3 Jan 1831 Harriet 27 Bentley, St Mary
12 Nov 1834 Isabella inf Nacton, St Martin
18 Jan 1832 James 29 Layham, St Andrew
26 Feb 1832 James 18 Great Barton, Holy Innocents
21 Oct 1839 James 13 Little Whelnetham, St Mary Magdalene
24 Oct 1830 Jane 23 Layham, St Andrew
2 Aug 1838 Joel 9m Hessett, St Ethelbert
15 Nov 1838 John 25 Troston, St Mary
1 Oct 1838 Jonathan 83 Cotton, St Andrew |idea|
6 Dec 1833 Joseph 85 Bradfield Combust, All Saints
2 Jan 1832 Mary 56 Fornham, St Martin
11 Aug 1832 Mary 62 Hessett, St Ethelbert
4 Apr 1833 Mary 40 Walton, St Mary
24 Apr 1833 Mary Ann 44 Shotley, St Mary
30 Oct 1833 Patience 75 Holbrook, All Saints
20 May 1832 Prudence 78 Little Whelnetham, St Mary Magdalene
17 Oct 1833 Robert 24 Troston, St Mary
27 Aug 1833 Robert inf Nacton, St Martin
22 Jun 1836 Robert 63 Troston, St Mary
10 Sep 1833 Samuel 54 Denham [nr Eye], St John the Baptist
18 Aug 1833 Sarah 78 Pettistree, St Peter & St Paul
4 Apr 1833 Susannah 37 Ipswich, St Peter
26 Sep 1837 Thomas 81 Hunston, St Michael
31 Dec 1838 Thomas 58 Great Whelnetham, St Thomas a Becket
30 Jul 1831 William 80 Barningham, St Andrew
12 Feb 1837 William inf Fornham, St Martin
26 Jun 1840 William 1 Lowestoft, St Margaret
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe John was the child of older parents, and the youngest in the family, or the only child. Perhaps, when his mother died, he joined the Army.

As we now know the desertion in 1830 was reported in the Police Gazette, it raises the question of whether a search at the TNA on the 1830 event may produce some more informative data; or alternatively a Police Gazette from 1837-38; on the 1837 desertion.

There are registers of deserters, 1811-1852, in WO 25/2906 to WO 25/2934 . After 1827 they are arranged by regiment. These registers give descriptions, dates and place of enlistment and desertion, and outcome. There are registers of captured deserters, 1813-1845, in WO 25/2935 to WO 25/2951 , with indexes up to 1833 in WO 25/2952 , WO 25/2953 , and WO 25/2954.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have incl. an updated CSI Essex mudmap: http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/IW40zQ8gp49rSc1NxeMieA?authkey=uC_gFNYT8jc

I will try to show it here [fingers crossed]:http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/IW40zQ8gp49rSc1NxeMieA?authkey=uC_gFNYT8jc

Still annoying :D
Chris

[crisGloss]

Hi

Is there a limit to the number of posts you can do back-to-back without anyone else's input? :D Hope not. I am running my own little CSI here.

A map of the Hartismere Registration District includes a Cotton thingy. I don't actually know what I am talking about, but that "Cotton" may be the basis for the reference in the Burial Index, I quoted in my last post. It was a bit hard to place "Cotton, St Andrews, Suffolk" so I looked into it further. "St Andrews" may be a Church in the Cotton sub-district. You would be best to contact the compiler of the Index.

The 32 parishes of Hartismere Registration District, Suffolk are grouped into 3 sub-districts :- Botesdale, Eye and Mendlesham. The map below shows the subdivisions of the RD [assuming it uploads]. The site reference for this is:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SFK/RegDists.html#Suffolk%20Hundreds (scroll down to Hartismere Registration District)

xxx image

If it didn't show, here is the graphic's address on photobucket :
http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/gFyAYnDcQhf6XYViZIYd_A?authkey=uC_gFNYT8jc

Chris
Becoming even more annoying

[sue alderton]

Cris, you are such a treasure it is so interesting getting your emails I am so sorry your searches have proved fruitless for your relative.

You have provided me with so many leads that I do not know which one to follow. You have given me the first bit of concrete validated information that my ggggrt grand father was born in Langham before now it was only family oral history. So to get an original copy of the Police Gazette that would have entered his name and details where do you suggest I approach, the Kew reords office in Class HO75 or NSW State Archives in the LDS film numbers 0951965. I would like a copy of the original inclusion in the index and the Police Gazette details.

With the details you provided ALDERTON John 83rd Regiment Foot Essex Langham Labourer, the date withheld part is that for the 1830 dessertion, is the date available in the original or has it been withheld altogether. Will the original provide other details do you think?

As for the other details about deaths etc, when I had the Parish records of Langham researched I found a John and Elizabeth Alderton married in 1805 and I was rather hoping they might have been his parents. However there was never any mention of the birth or baptism of any children by a John and Elizabeth Alderton from 1805 to 1815 in the Langham Parish records. So I think he could have been their first and only child and his parents moved out of the Parish after he was born, where to is anyone's guess? If he mentioned Langham on his enlistment papers then he probably had a lot of relatives in Langham that he kept in contact with and may have even moved back later in his childhood.

But you have made my day I could never pinpoint where he came from now all I need to do is get a copy of the original source of this information so your suggestions are welcome where do I start?

Sue

[crisGloss]

I am so sorry your searches have proved fruitless for your relative...where do you suggest I approach, the Kew reords office...or NSW State Archives in the LDS film numbers 0951965. I would like a copy of the original inclusion in the index and the Police Gazette details.


Hi

You are welcome. :)To tell the truth, I have probably benefited more by what I have learnt. |5cups|

I suggest the first thing to do is to read the whole Deserter thingy [published 1999] and contact the :
Manchester & Lancashire Family History Society
Clayton House
59 Piccadilly
Manchester
M1 2AQ

They provide suggestions as to how to confirm their entries!

You didn't say you liked the new map?!:D

The annoying Chris

[crisGloss]

However there was never any mention of the birth or baptism of any children by a John and Elizabeth Alderton from 1805 to 1815 in the Langham Parish records. So I think he could have been their first and only child and his parents moved out of the Parish after he was born, where to is anyone's guess?

I am still waiting for my fische from Melbourne |snore|...In the meantime:

According to the Burial Index there were few deaths of Aldertons in Langham after 1816 [yet it seems to cover other Aldertons I have seen in other places, like Thomas Cole Alderton in Harwick]. This suggests the line in Langham died out. The 1891 census reveals that the overall distribution of Aldertons in England puts Suffolk at the top:


Suffolk 19% of 295 of 1539 families
Essex 9% 132 of 1539

Now that we know John Alderton was a labourer, the intelligence about farm or agriculture labourers becomes very relevant. |idea| His parents may have been tenant farmers, and the farm was sold; or his father may have been an agricultural labourer himself.

To understand the life of farm labourers (talking abt John's father here; not John himself), I would recommend you peruse the threads on this forum:

Occupations > Labourers> Ag Lab
Occupations > Labourers> Farm Labourers

Some extracts from this forum [contributor in bold] are as follows:


"Some of my ancestors were ag labs and his children seem to have been born in various places in the same area of herefordshire, for example, Richard Turner was b ledbury, his wife Hannah b Linton, the children were born in Linton, Stanford Bishop & Whitbourne." :eek:
ruthm


"Agricultual labourers tended to be contracted by the farmer for only one year. At the end of the year, there would be what was called a 'hirings fair' in the nearest town, where everyone would go and farmers could go round picking out the labourers they wanted - a little like a cattle market! This meant that labourers were often constantly moving between farms and villages, although they would mostly remain in the same area, surrounding the town where the fair was held. This practice continued into the middle of the 20th century in some parts of England".
BeccaHarris


"Farm to farm in the area, my mother attended 8 different schools (leaving school at 14) the church calendar is the guide for when they moved - mostly feast days i.e. Michaelmas- after harvest time".
estd1759


"My Ag Labs moved in their search for work. They covered Castle Camps & Shudy Camps (Cambridgeshire), Ashdon & Radwinter (Essex) plus Haverhill (Suffolk). These villages were all within a 10 mile radius of each other (but have Records Offices in different counties ) I have another clutch who travelled round Suffolk: Theberton, Eastbridge, Covehythe, Middleton - again within a 15 mile radius or thereabouts. You went where the work was, especially if you were working on small farms, where there could be just 3 or 4 "permanent" Ag Labs and were just needed for certain seasons, like harvesting".
Jan1954

Looking at the CSI Langham mud-map (yeah, we have moved to Langham now) :http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/x4hWTaPeDyXjTNtYXNHZhA?authkey=uC_gFNYT8jc :D (yeah, I know, it is over-rated: but humour me).
...it is apparent that Langham, Essex was on a major road skirting Ipswich , Suffolk, where perhaps an Agri Lab Fair was held. |idea| It is interesting that this same road connects Langham with Cotton, Suffolk.

To throw a cat among the pigeons: Is it possible your researcher might have researched the wrong parish? There is another Langham [see Stow Registration District, Suffolk http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SFK/RegDists.html#Suffolk%20Hundreds Scroll down to Stow RD.

I have posted a map of the Stow RD here: http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/9j72BE2i4hWHNR9evS5FqQ?authkey=uC_gFNYT8jc

All done!

Chris

[crisGloss]

According to the [National] Burial Index there were few deaths of Aldertons in Langham after 1816 [yet it seems to cover the other Aldertons I have seen in other places, like Thomas Cole Alderton in Harwick]. This suggests the line in Langham died out.

:o What I meant to say |scold| was that:

There were Aldertons being born there, it is just that they don't appear to die there after 1816! They appear to move and die some where else.|wave|

A wiser person than me would observe that the Alderton clan would have been affected by a period in English history described as the Industrial Revolution, and associated agrarian reforms. During this period the structure of rural employment changed fundamentally. The age from 1760 to say 1850 was a transition period where the old Patriarchal System or relationship between master and farm servant declined.

Quotes: from "General Ludd, Captain Swing, Rebecca and Their Fellows" [refer: http://tarfor.hu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=115&Itemid=1]:


Small farmers and cottagers were...badly affected. As a result of enclosures the number of small property owners grew significantly, but the size of their ancestral lands was often reduced, and they also had to pay their share of the heavy legal costs of enclosure, and that of fencing, which could be as high as ,5 [sic] per acre. As the Hammonds put it:

"the classes that were impoverished by enclosure were ruined when they had to pay for the very proceeding that made them the poorer."

Many of them sold their newly acquired property shortly after enclosure, and they either emigrated to America or to an industrial town, or became day labourers. The number of small land-owners had steadily been declining during the period [early 1800s]. Cottagers who owned their cottage received in return for their common rights a tiny allotment, which was definitively less valuable than what they had lost.

[The OldPatriarchal System]
In the old times agricultural labourers (farm servants) were hired for a whole year, and most of their payment was in kind, as they were lodged and boarded by the farmer who hired them. This system meant security for the workers."

Under this system:


A so called Statue Fair was held annually. Farmers and labourers collected there to make the new contracts for the following year. Halévy describes this kind of "man market" as follows:

"Once a year, usually at Michaelmas, the Statue Fair was held at some town in the district. Thither the farmers flocked from all side to hire servants for the following year. These occasions were the saturnalia of the country folk. For eight days the young men and girls found themselves free from the contract which had bound them to a master during the past year....When the actual fair day came the labourers took their station in the market-place. The shepherd wore a tuft of wool in his hat, the milk-maid a tuft of cows hair, the carter a piece of whip-cord, and the stable man a bit of sponge. By the evening all the agreements had been concluded. Every youth could now spend his last day of freedom amusing himself with his girl."

During this time [1760 to 1850] annual employment declined, and this sort of patriarchal system gradually disappeared as the commercialisation of agriculture progressed...The master wanted to get rid of this old paternalist customs, together with all his duties to his labourers.

A new form of client-servant arrangement was promoted, just as happened in the USA and then Australia in the late twentieth century: casual labour:|sad1|


"The worker was employed for a short term, for a few weeks, or just for one day. This meant considerable worsening in the workers' situation, as seasonal work is very characteristic of agriculture, and, for example, during winter it was not easy to find employment. In old times their livelihood was secured by their masters throughout the whole year, but now they had to manage as they could".


Instead of the village community (as symbolised by open field and common) there was now enclosure. Instead of mutual aid and social obligation, there was now the Poor Law, administered exclusively by the rulers of the countryside. Instead of family, patronage or custom, there was now the straight forward nexus of wages, which bound the landless labourer to the landed [owner of land]".

Under the Poor Law a person had to return to the parish where he was born to receive assistance! |sad1|

If the Alderton parents fell upon hard times, this could have meant:

going to Langham, as their birthplace,
leaving Langham to go to their birthplace; or
leaving Langham to go back to where they came from when times became hard.


1830 is regarded as the date by which the reforms achieved inevitability. There was sporadic rebellion through out England, culminating in the "Swing Riots" [named after Captain Swing]. According to J. F. C. Harrison: "Nearly 2000 prisoners were brought to trial in 1830-31", as a result of the Swing Riots.

The text also adds:

"...in 1830...rural labourers protested against the full triumph of agricultural capitalism...and... it quickly became nationwide. Similar economic conditions of labourers in different parts of the country resulted in the same kind of protest and... the situation in the village was so desperate that it made riots inevitable...rebellions burst out from time to time: in 1795; in 1816 in the Eastern counties; in 1822 in East Anglia; in 1830; and again, though more scattered in 1834-35; and in 1843-44 mainly in the Eastern counties".

The situation of rural labourers became incredibly difficult. They lost their land and animals and had to live exclusively on their wage. Consequently, they had to buy the food which formerly they had produced themselves, and they had to buy it in a rising market. Real wages of labourers did not follow the price risings, but they decreased steadily. As the Hammonds put it:

"Thus the labourer who now lived on wages alone, earned wages of lower purchasing power than the wages he had formerly supplemented by his own produce."

... the only place where he was entitled for poor relief was his own parish, where he had been born, or where he had gained a settlement. All these people had to ask for relief from the parish, and as a result Poor Rates became considerably higher.

History suggests that the problems for farm labourers would have well and truly bitten in Essex by 1816. If the Aldertons moved in 1807 and did not christen their new born child until 1810 [oral history from IGI], in another parish, it should probably be no surprise.

The key would be to find where John enlisted from, as an indicator of where he actually lived; different perhaps from where he was born.

|nopity|
Chris

[crisGloss]

source cited "... the only place where he was entitled for poor relief was his own parish, where he had been born, or where he had gained a settlement".

Hi

When tracing missing BDM data, it seems wise to consider that families or some members of families were far more mobile in the above period of the Industrial Revolution than some people, even some researchers believe. Only the life of owners of large farms was stable. The idea that poor agricultural labourers could not move, being short of horses, should be balanced by the impact of the Poor Law. The old stability started to unwind with improvements in farm methods, starting in 1760, incl. mechanisation.

Quote from forum no longer current:

"...as I understand it, if people wanted to move from their parish of origin to another, they could apply for a Settlement Certificate. This meant that if they fell on hard times, they had proof that their old parish would pay the costs.

In practice, most people didn't bother to obtain a certificate, and in that case there was a settlement examination held to determine which parish was responsible. Sometimes there was a dispute between parishes, especially if the person, or family, had moved around a lot. You could gain settlement in a parish by[1] being born there; [2]working there for over a year, [3]if the master you worked for had settlement there; or [4] by serving an apprenticeship there. Children took their fathers settlement parish. Once the responsible parish was established, the poor unfortunates were usually sent back with a Removal Order, even if it was at the other end of the country".

Parishes were often quick to move certain individuals on, just if they suspected they may have to ask for relief. None were too keen on unmarried single women for example, in case they became pregnant.

This was apparently one reason why the Hiring Fairs were held once a year, to ensure Ag Labs etc worked for only 364 days at a time, and couldn't therefore claim settlement in that parish!!
birdlip, Sept 2006, Forum ; numbers & emphasis added.

Quote: Another view:

"Not quite as simple as that. As the practice developed Parishes would simply pay the costs if the disability was temporary but initially things were different.

If a person fell on hard times the parish constable would walk them to the parish boundary and there hand them over to the next constable and so on until they reached their parish of settlement . The costs of this being paid by the parish of settlement.

A wife took her husband's parish of settlement which could mean her being moved to a place she had never been to before if her husband suddenly died. [illigit] children took their parish of birth as their parish of settlement as they are children of no-one.

The implications are that if a stable but unmarried couple with a number of children moved into a parish and the man died, the family could end up being split up and sent to a number of different parishes depending on where the children had been born.

Guy Etchells, Guest; emphasis added; Forum May 2008

Quote:

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/#Poorhouses
Pam Downes, Forum; May 2008

Ann [Forum] said a Settlement Certificate contains a mine of information.

I'm off to see the "Australia" movie, to get in touch with Aussie history. Still waiting for my fische.|snore|

Chris

[leonardpiggin]

Hi
I would just like to say that there is a house in Loughton essex called Alderton Hall ,quite old and a lissted property,I,m sure the occupants would know the history of the house if Aldertons lived there.Len Piggin