OK - I've had enough ......

[Barbara Wilkinson]

... I would really like my grandfather to come out of hiding .....!!! This man does not seem to exist in official records between his birth in 1878 and his first marriage in 1909!
I have been trying to knock down this infuriating brickwall for years and, having had some extra time on my hands in the last few weeks, thought I would have yet another go – but that’s it – I’m all out of ideas!
Joshua Naylor, otherwise Owen - that's how my grandfather's pension record from Post Officer Archives is headed. That was the first mention of the name Owen heard in relation to this man – he had always been known as Joshua Naylor.
When I first started tracing my family history, I thought I would have no problems finding my grandfather's birth certificate - I knew his birthday, knew the year he was born, and where - thought I knew his father's name from his marriage certificate (and there were 2 of them - certificates, that is) - but could not find a birth certificate.
Eventually contacted the Post Office Archives because he had been employed by them all his working life and had received a pension for many years - and that's when OWEN popped up! Tried again with the birth certificate - no problem, Joshua Owen, born 4 June 1878, Manchester, father George Owen, mother Mary Owen, formerly Naylor. Since then it has been one frustration after the other - no trace on the census under either the name Naylor or Owen, no marriage for his parents - nothing!
The only trace I have ever come across is a very tenuous possibility on the 1891 census:
RG12/3237/71/4 Halliwell Buildings, Lad Lane, Manchester
James Naylor head single 30 b Birkenhead
Elizabeth Naylor sister single 27 b Birkenhead
Joshua Naylor brother single 13 b Manchester
John Naylor brother single 11 b Manchester
Mary E Naylor sister single 2 b Manchester

This “Joshua” fits my grandfather as far as his age is concerned and
Mary E Naylor pops up again in 1901, living as the daughter of William and Elizabeth Timms (RG13/3746/26/43) which suggests she is the daughter of Elizabeth, not the sister, and this is confirmed from her birth certificate -daughter of Elizabeth Naylor, father unknown. I also have the marriage certificate of Elizabeth and William Timms, at St Stephens, Hulme. I was hoping that if Elizabeth’s father and “my” Joshua’s father matched, I would have a connection – but no!
“My” Joshua was married twice and on both marriage certificates quotes his father’s name as George Naylor, stone mason, deceased. Never a hint of Mr Owen anywhere! Elizabeth’s father is Joshua Naylor – but … ! His profession is “mason”, which may be a connection. (You can see that we are well past the “clutching at straws” scenario here …!)
James and Elizabeth are also in hiding in 1871 and 1881 – or am I just suffering from the genealogist’s equivalent of snow blindness when it comes to looking at these records? I have looked for James and Elizabeth’s births in Birkenhead and requested certificates for some possibles, but cannot find a James and an Elizabeth with the same parents or even the same mother – or at least that is what the local registrar tells me.
I am now thinking that with such a big age difference between Elizabeth and Joshua from the census entry above, maybe Elizabeth’s dad died, mum remarried (Mr Owen?), they both died and all the children ended up living with brother James. By the time Joshua married in 1909 he could have completely forgotten that his father and Elizabeth’s father were not the same – but then again, he did call his father George! Before I spend more money on certificates that probably have nothing to do with me …. can anyone see anything I may have missed – or can suggest just what to do next!

Sorry this is so long - it has been a thorny problem for so long ……!

[Sandyhall]

Hi
Could James and Elizabeth be Mary Owen nee' Naylor's brother and sister. Mary and George die leaving 2 children Joshua and John so James and Elizabeth took them in. Elizabeth is unmarried but had a daughter Mary E then marries William Timms



James Naylor
Year of Registration: 1862 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Birkenhead (1861-1998) County: Cheshire, Merseyside
Volume: 8a,Page: 429

There are 2 birth entry's for Elizabeth Naylor around the same time.

Elizabeth Naylor
Year of Registration: 1864 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Birkenhead (1861-1998) County: Cheshire, Merseyside
Volume: 8a Page: 441

Elizabeth Naylor
Year of Registration: 1864 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Birkenhead (1861-1998) County: Cheshire, Merseyside
Volume: 8a Page: 442

These would tell you who the Parents where

Sandy

[kcapes]

Hello Barbara
I thought I would have a poke around and your right very elusive, but I was thinking what about the earlier census looking for Joshua or george so I checked 1851 and found this
11 ? Manchester St Pauls
Joshua Naylor 24 Marble Mason Stockport
Alice " 28 birkenhead
Mary " 3 ?
Hannah " 1 Manchester
William Owen 24 Stone Mason Manchester
Is this to much of a coincidence. :)

[Sandyhall]

Found quite a lot of John Owen's but this is the only one to specifically say Manchester

John Owen
Year of Registration: 1881 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Manchester (1837-1924) County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d, Page: 314

or have you found these already

Sandy

[Sandyhall]

Hi Census for a mary Naylor that kcapes found + 1861

1851 England Census about Mary Naylor
Name: Mary Naylor
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Joshua
Mother's Name: Alice
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Manchester
Sub registration district: London Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 1hh
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 145
Household Members: Name Age
Alice Naylor 28
Hannah Naylor 1
Joshua Naylor 24
Mary Naylor 3
William Owen 24


1861 England Census about Mary Naylor
Name: Mary Naylor
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Joshua
Mother's Name: Alice
Gender: Female
Where born: Hulme, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Birkenhead
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Birkenhead
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Registration district: Birkenhead
Sub registration district: Birkenhead
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 49
Household Members:
Name Age
Alice Naylor 38
Hannah Naylor 11
James Naylor 6
Jessie Naylor 2
Joshua Naylor 35
Mary Naylor 13

This could be her

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Sandy - thanks for that; I have contacted the local register office before about the references you have found - I asked if they had the same parents and suggested Mary as the mother's name. They did not actually comment on the mother's name, but they are not brother and sister - or at least that is what I was told! I must admit I had not considered that they might be Mary's brother and sister! I am on the point of sending for Elizabeth's birth certificate - hoping father might be Joshua - to tie in with the Elizabeth who married William Timms. The John Owen I have also investigated - all I can say is that he does not share the same parents as Joshua, so I have (for the moment!) discounted him!

kcapes - again thanks; I keep being drawn back to that census reference because I think it is too much of a coincidence! I have that family in 1861 as well - in Birkenhead, and what appears to be that Joshua in 1841 in Hulme, Manchester with his parents, but cannot find them in 1871. That could be 'my' Mary I suppose - and I have the fanciful notion that she married William's son who happened to be called George - but I cannot find an obvious candidate for William in 1861 - and I have never been able to find a marriage between Mary Naylor and George Owen.

My grandfather should be on the 1881 census and each subsequent one, but I am absolutely stumped!|banghead|

My grandfather's birth was registered by his mother, who made her mark - I have even been down the fanciful road that the registrar got the surnames the wrong way round, and she couldn't read to put him right!
I am grateful for fresh eyes on this - any thoughts are very welcome!!
Barbara

PS Thanks again Sandy - you must have been added that last message as I was adding mine!

[Wirral]

Have a look at RG11/4007 folio 60 page 18. This has NAYLORs & OWENs together. Can't type it all out - the tennis is about to start!

[bumblebee]

I am not 100% sure about that census. It has two wives and two heads, and although the transcription says 'son in law' I cannot see that on the actual image. I don't know if these two families are 'together' or not.

Bumblebee

[Sandyhall]

wirral
where did you see this Ancestry doesn't give me the option to search by source citation anymore which year census is it on

also try copy and paste if you can thats what I do
sandy

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Thanks Wirral - I had seen it, because one of the things that struck me was that on A*** the record shows William Naylor as son in law - but the actual census page says Head - a 2-headed household! It's finding a connection that's the problem ...!!|banghead|
Of course, there may not be one - Mary may never have married a Mr Owen - he might have existed only in her imagination.
Enjoy the tennis!

Of course if Mary, daughter of Joshua and Alice in Manchester in 1851 is mother of my Joshua, is it likely that he is the Joshua in James, Elizabeth, Joshua et al from 1891, unless Mary was about 14 when James was born, but then again, she might have started early!

Crossover of posts again - thanks everyone for continuing to help!!
A*** gives me that option still Sandy; I've just used it!. Have you converted to the "New Search" that has started appearing at the top of the pages - I haven't looked at it yet.

[Sandyhall]

Crossover of posts again - thanks everyone for continuing to help!!
A*** gives me that option still Sandy; I've just used it!. Have you converted to the "New Search" that has started appearing at the top of the pages - I haven't looked at it yet.[/QUOTE]

I haven't change over to this new one but I noticed the other week I could no longer search this way it had been removed from the search page have e-mialed to complain as I'm on one this week as they say |moon||rant||nutkick|

sandy

[kcapes]

Hello
1861 8 Halliwells Buildings Lad Lane Manchester
William Owen 37 Stone Mason Barton Manchester
Susan " 33 Congleton Cheshire
James " 9 Barton
Betsy " 7 "
Hannah " 5 "
William " 2 "

[kcapes]

Hello
Can't remember if anyone has mentioned this one.
1871 Cellar under St Johns Manchester
William Owen 48 Stone Mason with family again but this time they have Joshua aged 2
kim

[Barbara Wilkinson]

kcapes - wow, that looks more promising! I had just found the 1871 census before you posted again - what a wonderful address, cellar under 11 Back Quay St - until you realise just how horribly crowded it must be!!
That Joshua is not mine - mine was born 1878. I had not seen these before! Maybe the wall is faintly crumbling ...!!:D

[Sandyhall]

This is what I've got

Joshua Naylor b abt 1801
marries Agnes b abt 1811
they have children
Joshua b abt 1827 (Census 41,51,61)
John b abt 1830 (census 41, 51) he marries Leticia b abt 1830 had 1 child in England then go to america and have 5 more children.

Joshua marries Alice b abt 1823 (census 51, 61)
they have children
Mary b abt 1848 (census 51, 61)
Hannah b abt 1850 (census 51, 61)
James b abt 1855 (census 61)
Jessie b abt 1859 (census 61)
James b abt 1861 (census 91)
Elizabeth b abt 1864 ( census 91, 01)

Elizabeth not married has a daughter Mary b abt 1889 then marries William Timms b abt 1877 and has a son william b abt 1894 (census 1901)

Mary may have married a George Owen and had 2 children
Joshua b abt 1878 (census 91)
John b abt 1880 (census 91)

William Owen b abt 1827
marries susan b abt 1828 - 1877
They have children
James b abt 1852
Elizabeth b abt 1854
Hannah b abt 1857
William b abt 1859
Joshua b abt 1869

But no George Owen in this family
any one add to this
Sandy

[Barbara Wilkinson]

And Joshua marries Alice in 1846 - you see I have been paying attention to this family!!
Actually - I have no idea if Joshua married Alice in 1846 - but ... there is a marriage in December quarter 1846 for Joshua Naylor and one of the other names on the page is Alice Jones!
But ... I haven't tied James and Elizabeth to Joshua and Alice - maybe if I can find them on the 1871 census or 1881 census, which I have not been able to do!
Joshua (husband of Alice) probably turns up in the Crumpsall Workhouse in 1891 (RG12/3266/112/27), but again - cannot find him in 1871 and 1881.
I really appreciate you all spending this time looking!

Incidentally - where did Leticia and America come from??

[Sandyhall]

ancestry hits

John and Leticia on 1880 Federal Census Residence Cininnati, Hamilton, Ohio
With children
Latitia b 1855 England
Annie 1865 Ohio
Walter 1870 Ohio
Elmore 1875 Ohio
Archie 1877 Ohio

Maryam b 1849 Manchester is on 1851 census with John and Leticia in Manchester but not in Ohio.

Sandy
PS we don't even go out of the house this weekend as its F1 at Silverstone just up the road so don't mind its also been raining on and off all day

[Barbara Wilkinson]

However, before I get too carried away - I think that James (1851 with Joshua and Alice) may well turn up in 1881 in Hulme, married to Elizabeth A and son John, which may rule him out - or he may turn up in Collyhurst Road as a lodger and a mysterious Richard Naylor - which is my preferred option if I want to link him to Elizabeth! Now if I could only link Elizabeth to Mary ........! But George Owen must fit in somewhere - I can accept that if 'my' Joshua had been living with his brothers and sister because something had happened to his parents his memory might have been faulty when is came to his first marriage in 1909 and he had genuinely forgotten that his name was once Owen - but ... George is definitely there on his birth certificate - unless Mary was bending the truth ..!

[Sandyhall]

Yep I found them as well but didn't want to confuse you too much

Mary christened 27 May 1850 with her sister Hannah at All saints Manchester father Joshua and mother Alice on the IGI

sandy

[kcapes]

Hello again
I don't think Joshua and Alice are still alive in 71, had a quick look for death and there is possible for him 1870. I think you should keep digging re- William Owen, lodged with them, stone mason, named his child Joshua, all points on the card.
Kim

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Hello again
I don't think Joshua and Alice are still alive in 71, had a quick look for death and there is possible for him 1870. I think you should keep digging re- William Owen, lodged with them, stone mason, named his child Joshua, all points on the card.
Kim
Yes - seen that death thanks Kim - complicated by the 1891 census, as that Joshua is the right age! I'll keep looking for Alice's death, although A** has frozen for me at the moment - overwork, probably!
An added complication on the 1901 census is George Owen, aged 50 stonemason - but he is shown as single, an epilepic since 13 years, living with nephew James, 21, also a stonemason - he could tie in with William, maybe a grandson! I think you're right - as I said many posts ago - I have kept returning to that 1851 census - it is too much of a coincidence! Lots to think about ... I really appreciate this fresh look - and all your hard work!

[bumblebee]

Don't know if this helps or hinders, but I tried to follow Jesse Naylor aged two from the 1861 census. I found a marriage in about 1878 and on the same page was a Henry Pollard.

I then found a Henry and Jesse Pollard (right age right birth place) on the 1881 census in Hulme and they are living next door to James and Elizabeth Naylor with son John aged 4.

Could be sheer coincidence but could Jesse and brother James be living next door to one another in 1881 ie. showing a link between the James with wife Elizabeth and the family on the 1861..

Phew....does that make sense.

Watching with interest..

Bumblebee

Re this ................'However, before I get too carried away - I think that James (1851 with Joshua and Alice) may well turn up in 1881 in Hulme, married to Elizabeth A and son John, which may rule him out - or he may turn up in Collyhurst Road as a lodger and a mysterious Richard Naylor - which is my preferred option if I want to link him to Elizabeth! Now if I could only link Elizabeth to Mary ........!'

[Wirral]

Have a look at RG11/4007 folio 60 page 18. This has NAYLORs & OWENs together. Can't type it all out - the tennis is about to start!
She won! |jumphappy
Congratulations to Laura Robson from Great Britain who has just won the Wimbledon Junior Girls Championship!

[Sandyhall]

Kim
Joshua is on the 1871 Census with father William mother Susan so how could this be Mary's son Joshua Owen

But if you want to get copy this is the only entry I could find

Birth for Joshua Owen
Joshua Owen
Year of Registration: 1868 Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Manchester (1837-1924) County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d Page: 194

Sandy

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Could be sheer coincidence but could Jesse and brother James be living next door to one another in 1881 ie. showing a link between the James with wife Elizabeth and the family on the 1861..
Phew....does that make sense.
Bumblebee
Makes as much sense as anything else with this (these??) family - thanks for that Bumblebee!
But ... there had to be one! If this James and Jessie are brother and sister, and if they are children of Joshua and Alice, they cannot be related to Elizabeth (1891 James, Elizabeth, Joshua et al) because this James, a baker, turns up in Heaton Norris in 1891, still with wife Elizabeth, son John and another son James - so cannot be in Halliwell Buildings with Elizabeth etc!
However, to further muddy the waters - one of the witnesses to Elizabeth Naylor's marriage to William Timms is .... Elizabeth A Naylor (wife of James the baker???)!

[Sandyhall]

Looking for James Naylor 1861 but could not find one but found a John

Name: John Naylor
Year of Registration: 1861 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Birkenhead (1861-1998) County: Cheshire, Merseyside
Volume: 8a Page: 384

Sometimes John was changed to James and James changed to John.

Think you need to get some Birth certs. to tie these all up together now or you could look for any Parish records.

Sandy

[bumblebee]

Think we need a spreadsheet and a headache tablet...

Bumblebee

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Thanks again Sandy - I have James in 1862 (December quarter, Birkenhead) - and had investigated him as a possible brother for Elizabeth (earlier post), but he is not, according to the local register office. I have today sent for Elizabeth's - March quarter 1864 (there are 2, just to confuse!), hoping her father is Joshua a stonemason - and if her mother is Alice there's a bonus!
You have all worked really hard on this today - I am really grateful!! As I have said, lots to think about - and if I end up buying certificates that are inconclusive - well, it won't be the first time - more to add to the folder marked "Ancestors I might have had".

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Think we need a spreadsheet and a headache tablet...

Bumblebee

Funnily enough .....!!! Although I thought a database might be better!!!

[Barbara Wilkinson]

However, to further muddy the waters - one of the witnesses to Elizabeth Naylor's marriage to William Timms is .... Elizabeth A Naylor (wife of James the baker???)!
And - I have just remembered this and it might show how frustrated I have been by this whole saga over years - the other witness was Joshua Naylor; probably her father, but the copy certificate was a photocopy of the original register and so showed the original signatures. I was so keen to show a connection to my Joshua that I spent absolutely ages looking for a prayer book my grandfather had given me a couple of years before he died in 1965 because I knew he had written in it and I wanted to compare the handwriting! That was inconclusive too, but I drove my husband round the bend looking at my house - and had my mum and dad tearing their house apart to see if I had left it there!!

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread today - I really appreciate everyone's efforts!
I will have to take a little while to put it all together - wait to see if I get anything back from the registrar about Elizabeth and maybe send for Joshua the elder's death certificate to see if he did die in 1870 or it was him in the workhouse in 1891 -and then see if I am any nearer solving this problem - maybe a week lying down in a darkened room will help!! There are some new facts, and certainly some different slants on previously known facts, and for that I am grateful! I'll keep you posted - although I suspect if I finally crack this, you will hear the cheer wherever you are!

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Further to this thread ... I am after your help again ....!
I have been collating all this information together and have come to the conclusion that these are two families - that may (hopefully, will) link together. I have sent for some certificates, but whilst waiting for then to arrive, have tried to chase the people through all the available census returns. I cannot find any of them in 1871! I have tried as many variations as I can think of for the spelling of Naylor, but everything comes back blank. I am beginning to think that I would not spot them now if they leapt off the page, I have looked so many times! These are the families:

FROM 1891 CENSUS MANCHESTER RG12/3237 folio 71 page 4
2 Halliwells Buildings, Lad Lane, Manchester
James Naylor, Head, single, 30, Labourer at a Brewery, born Birkenhead
Elizabeth Naylor, sister, single, 27, housekeeper, born Birkenhead
Joshua Naylor, brother, single, 13, scholar, born Manchester
John Naylor, brother, single, 11, scholar, born Manchester
Mary E Naylor, sister, single, 2, born Manchester

FROM 1861 CENSUS BIRKENHEAD RG9/2643/75/10
15 Wilson Street, Birkenhead
Joshua Naylor, head, married, 35, mable mason, born Stockport
Alice Naylor, wife, married, 38, born Tranmere
Mary Naylor, daughter, single, 13, born Hulme, Manchester
Hannah Naylor, daughter, single, 11, born Hulme
James Naylor, son, single, 6, born Tranmere
Jessie Naylor, daughter, single, 2, born Birkenhead

Perhaps fresh eyes would spot them, if someone would be good enough to try?
The folks in 1891 were less than truthful with at least one relationship – Mary, aged 2, was really Elizabeth’s daughter – so some of the others could be wrong also; in fact I am hoping they are!
Joshua in 1861 had a brother who probably turns up in America in 1860 with his family; I suppose they could have all gone to see him – but don’t really think so!
Any ideas welcome!!

[bumblebee]

I have had a look around and checked the addresses on other census but nothing so far.

Bumblebee

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Thanks, Bumblebee - it's 1871 that is the real sticking point - and I suspect will be crucial in being able to tie this lot together ... if in fact they are anything to do with each other at all! I really hope Joshua and Alice's family end up being mine - I have found out loads about them since the weekend - otherwise, who wants a ready made tree stretching from Scotland through second marriages and emigrations ....!!

[Barbara Wilkinson]

I have today sent for Elizabeth's - March quarter 1864 (there are 2, just to confuse!), hoping her father is Joshua a stonemason - and if her mother is Alice there's a bonus!
He is - and mum is Alice, formerly Jones!! I'm now going to try again for James - I think I may have been misled by the register office some time ago! The 1871 census is becoming very important ...!

[Waitabit]

Barbara ,could this little lot be yours in 1881? I was going sideways alittle which is better than 'round the bend.


Marriages Mar 1879
----------------------------------------------
Naylor Jessie to Pollard Henry Salford 8d-80


RG11/33 39

12 Bradshaw St.

Elizabeth A. Naylor James abt 1854 Manchester, Lancashire, England Wife Hulme, Lancashire


James Naylor Elizabeth A. abt 1855 Birkenhead, Cheshire, England Head Hulme, Lancashire BAker

John Naylor James,
Elizabeth A. abt 1877 Hulme, Lancashire, England Son Hulme, Lancashire
View Record

Elizabeth Pollard Henry,
Jessie Hulme, Lancashire, England Daughter Hulme, Lancashire

Henry Pollard Jessie abt 1860 Salford, Lancashire, England Head Hulme, Lancashire

Jessie Pollard Henry abt 1859 Birkenhead, Cheshire, England Wife Hulme, Lancashire

Martha A. Pollard Henry,
Jessie abt 1880 Manchester, Lancashire, England Daughter Hulme, Lancashire

There are several Naylors there.

Off to get Hubbys' lunch try more later unless you get there first.

Wendy

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Thanks Wendy for taking the time - yes I've got those. I have managed to find most of these families in all the census records except 1871 when they all seem to have vanished off the face of the earth. I can only suppose it must be a transcription error on A***, and Naylor has been consistently transcribed as something else - either that or abdution by aliens.
I haven't found Elizabeth in 1881 (I don't think!!), but from her birth certificate, I am sure she belongs to the family in Birkenhead in 1861, and her father's name and occupation ties her to the family in Manchester in 1891 - so that's a step forward!
Thanks again

[Waitabit]

My apologies Barbara, I didn't read all of the posts before committing, my Hubby called me to see Andre Rieu with a 'penny whistle & 100 pipers giving vent to "Amazing Grace" you may anderstand why I rushed in & away.

ciao Wendy

[Barbara Wilkinson]

My apologies Barbara
No need to apologise!! I appreciate your efforts.

[Sandyhall]

Hi Barbara

I think the only way to find them is to go to the Records office and look at the 1871 Census as they may have been transcribed wrong on A******y. You have all the information as to where they were living in the other census to give you a start from.
Give them a ring before you go just to make sure they have what you want your local council will have a number or you could goggle for it.

Sandy

[Barbara Wilkinson]

You have all the information as to where they were living in the other census to give you a start from.
The trouble is - I haven't! They could be in Birkenhead, or they could be in Manchester - neither place is particularly small ...! You are right, of course, I will have to summon up the courage to attack the films!

[Marie G]

Hi I've just joined this site. I'm interested in William James Timms as I believe he is my great uncle. Do you have any information about him? Thank you - Marie

[Barbara Wilkinson]

Oh Marie, you made my heart beat faster when I saw the email quoting this post, I thought you had found my grandfather's parents .......!!!

I have some information about William James Timms, but not much, because I am not sure if he is connected to my family - I just collected some along the way - just in case .....!

William James Timms married Elizabeth Naylor after Banns on 30 November 1897 at St Stephen’s Church, Hulme, Manchester.
Chorlton December quarter 1897; Vol 8c, page 1124
Marriage certificate held - 30 November 1897, St Stephen, Hulme, Manchester
William was 29, a bachelor, plasterer and living at 64 Wood Street. His father was Patrick Timms, labourer.
Elizabeth was 32, a spinster, operative, also of 64 Wood Street; her father was Joshua Naylor, mason.
Witnesses: Joshua Naylor, Elizabeth Ann Naylor (marked)

They are found on the 1901 census at 17a Dolefield Manchester
RG13; piece 3746; folio 26; page 43
William Timms, head, married, 30, plasterer’s labourer, born Salford, Lancs
Elizabeth Timms, wife, 37, charwoman, born Birkenhead, Cheshire
Mary E Naylor, daughter, 12, born Manchester
William Timms, son, 7, born Manchester

Mary is Elizabeth’s daughter – found earlier in this thread on the 1891 census; William (son) was born prior to the marriage and the only entry I can find in the BMD indices is for William Naylor, Q2 1893, Barton on Irwell, so may or may not be William James Timms' son

I cannot find William in 1911, but Elizabeth appears to be at 51 Wood Street, Hulme, Manchester - RG14; Piece: 23902
Household of Martha Connor:
Elizabeth Timms, wife, 46, married 18 years, 3 children, all still living, born Liverpool
William Timms, son, 16, errand boy, railway company, born Hulme

Earlier census entries for William are:

1871 census – RG10; piece 4017; folio 70; page 38
2 Hollands Court, Salford (Greengate)
Patrick Timms, head, married, 27, labourer, born King’s Country, Ireland
Sarah Timms, wife, 25, born Marlborough (?), Ireland
Elizabeth Timms, daughter, 7, don’t attend school, born Salford, Lancs
Margaret Ann Timms, daughter, 4, don’t attend school, born Salford
William James Timms, son, 4, born Salford

1881 census – RG11; piece 3961; folio 84; page 22
5 North Charles Street, Salford, Lancs
Patrick Timms, head, married, 39, plasterer’s labourer, born Ireland
Sarah Timms, wife, 37, born Ireland
Elizabeth Timms, daughter, 16, born Salford, Lancs
Margaret A Timms, daughter, 14, born Salford
William James Timms, son, 10, born Salford

I cannot find him in 1891.

So - not much, you probably have all this already! If you find some document in your searching that ties William and Elizabeth to Joshua Naylor, born Joshua Owen in 1878 in Manchester, I will be forever in your debt .... but I suspect such a document does not exist!

Good luck with your research

Barbara