GRIFFITH, George, Musician

[Lenore]

Hello folks,

I've been stuck for years on my ancestor George GRIFFITH, who claimed he came from Liverpool, and always gave his occupation as "Professor of Music". He was born about 1824, but I have no evidence as to his parents' names.

He did not marry my gt gt grandmother Susan ROCHESTER, but their first child, George Edward, was born in the Victorian goldfields in 1855. I feel the reason they did not marry is that he had been married before - possibly in Liverpool. I don't know when he arrived in Victoria, but presumably by July 1854 to enable him to father Edward George. Their other children were: Mary Jane, George, Ann Catherine, Louisa, George Henry, Alfred John, Charlotte Broadley, Emily Frances, George Henry. (The name George was the kiss of death, the boy to survive to adulthood was Alfred.)

I haven't been able to spot him in the 1851 Census indexes published in the little booklets. I wonder if there is something more technologically advanced than paper indexes? It's a while since I've been through that material.

Is there a census index available for the 1841 Census?

Over the years I've spent quite a bit of time in the State Library of Victoria and the Genealogical Society of Victoria webpage trying to get a bead on George in their Liverpool resources, but with little success. I think I need to start all over again, now that there are more electronic resources available.

George played a violin and pianoforte, and to have achieved any sort of proficiency in these instruments suggests he came from a middle class family, perhaps well-off tradesmen or shopkeepers or better. I noted in the PIGOTS 1830 directory that there was an Edward GRIFFITH, linen draper of 48 Church Street, Liverpool. Church Street also sported two musical instrument makers, James and Henry Banks at 26 Church St, and Yanrewicz and Weiss, pianoforte makers.

As to a possible previous marriage, I am a bit interested in the marriage on 15 November 1852 at St Nicholas, Liverpool, to Mary Ann Partington. The IGI shows that there was a child called George Griffith christened on 17 October 1852, son of George and Mary Ann. I could find no other children, and wondered whether this could be an abandoned wife? Possibly the 1861 Census migh clarify that situation.


Any other leads would be gratefu1 Census?

Over the years I've spent quite a bit of time in the State Library of Victoria and the Genealogical Society of Victoria webpage trying to get a bead on George in their Liverpool resources, but with little success. I think I need to start all over again, now that there are more electronic resources available.

George played a violin and pianoforte, and to have achieved any sort of proficiency in these instruments suggests he came from a middle class family, perhaps well-off tradesmen or shopkeepers or better. I noted in the PIGOTS 1830 directory that there was an Edward GRIFFITH, linen draper of 48 Church Street, Liverpool. Church Street also sported two musical instrument makers, James and Henry Banks at 26 Church St, and Yanrewicz and Weiss, pianoforte makers.

As to a possible previous marriage, I am a bit interested in the marriage on 15 November 1852 at St Nicholas, Liverpool, to Mary Ann Partington. The IGI shows that there was a child called George Griffith christened on 17 October 1852, son of George and Mary Ann. I could find no other children, and wondered whether this could be an abandoned wife? Possibly the 1861 Census migh clarify that situation.


Any other leads would be gratefully received.!

[Wirral]

This may be a complete coincidence, but I recently did some lookups for someone looking for David Griffiths. He is listed as a Professor of Music, age 36, born liverpool, living at 131 Field St, Everton, Liverpool in the 1851 census. He was blind. He was christened 13 Nov 1814 at St Nicholas Liverpool, father John Griffiths, mariner, mother Ann. The address looks like Bird Street Lane, but the word "street" is half in the next column. Possibly the registrar wrote Bird Lane, then realised it was Bird Street.
In the 1845 trade Directory David was an organist, living at Conway Place, 25 Rose Hill.

Liverpool Library has an index to the 1851 census for Liverpool.

[Lenore]

Hi Wirral,
Sorry I have not responded earlier to your message - I haven't been back to look for a long time. I'll make a note of David Griffiths - I have no idea at all whether he will be connected to George, but you never know. Thanks for the reference to the Liverpool Library Census Index, I'll give them a try.

Best wishes

Lenore

[Wirral]

Hi Lenore
I only found out yesterday that Liverpool & South West Lancashire Genealogy Society have just brought out an index for the 1841 census of the whole of Liverpool.

[Wirral]

Hi Lenore

Just been to the library today. The only George Griffith/s of a suitable age in the 1851 census is at 28 Old Haymarket Liverpool, unmarried, 23, assistant grocer, born Northop Flintshire. He is still there & unmarried at the 1861 census.
However, from the St Nicholas, Liverpool, church marriage records:
After Banns, 15 Nov 1852
George Griffith, full age, bachelor, Grocer, Denison St, father Thomas Griffith, watch maker
married
Mary Ann Partington, full age, spinster, Denison St, father Thomas Partington, smith.
Witnesses: William & Elizabeth Bennion

All except Mary Ann wrote their own name, she signed by mark.

This probably won't help you much!

[Lenore]

Hi Lenore

However, from the St Nicholas, Liverpool, church marriage records:
After Banns, 15 Nov 1852
George Griffith, full age, bachelor, Grocer, Denison St, father Thomas Griffith, watch maker
married
Mary Ann Partington, full age, spinster, Denison St, father Thomas Partington, smith.
Witnesses: William & Elizabeth Bennion
This probably won't help you much!
Hi Wirral,

Thank you so much for that - you were so quick. I don't suppose whether you happened to notice whether the George Griffith who married Mary Ann Partington was still there in 1861? I have had my eye on him for a while. My George didn't marry my gt gt grandma Susan, and I think he was probably married previously, I cannot see what else would stop them marrying. She was a girl of 16 when she arrived in Melbourne. I haven't pinpointed his arrival, probably because he payed his own passage. The Assisted emigrants had much more recorded about them.

I'm looking for someone in just that social band - if he was a muso of his type (I've seen a musican program he [played for an Easter Mass, and he'd have had to have been a skilled musician to have played the pieces), he had to have come from at least the lower middle-class, and I reckon a watchmaker's son is pretty close to the mark.

I've just discovered that the Genealogical Society of Victoria has the 1861 in their library, so I'll book myself a spot as soon as I can find the time to go into town. If Mr Mary Anne Griffith is still in town in 1861, I shall be shot down in flames.

Thank you so much for your help, I really appreciate it.

Best wishes

Lenore

[Wirral]

Hi Lenore
Just reread my own posting. One possible reason why George the grocer who married 1852 did not turn up in the 1851 census was that he was "over the water" at the time. No, not emigrated, just on the Wirral, on the other side of the River Mersey. I have come across quite a number of people who married in Liverpool at that time, even though they were living in Wallasey or Birkenhead. I'll take a little trip up to Wallasey library.

[Wirral]

Hi Lenore
Back from the library after looking through the trade directories. I mentioned before about David Griffiths who was a professor of music. Well I have now found some more musical Griffiths' [nb, all had an "s" on the end of their name].
1845
Richd. musical-inst. maker, Victoria Place, 22 Prince Edwin St

1847
Sarah professor of the piano-forte, 26 King St, Edge Hill
William piano-forte maker, 78 Seel St

1849
William piano-forte maker & music seller, 39 Renshaw St

David was in the directories from 1845 until after 1861 (he is in the 1861 census at 143 Field St, Everton, born abt 1815 in Liverpool). There were no musicians in the 1843 directory.

Perhaps your George is related to Sarah or William, who may not appear on the 1841 or 1851 Liverpool census. The directories suggest that they arrived in Lpool about 1844 & had left by 1852 (my local library has no directories between 1849 & 1853)

[Wirral]

Just looked at the 1871 census for David Griffiths. I knew he was blind from birth, but i did not realise that his son David, born 1861, was also blind from birth. David snr had at least 11 children.

[Lenore]

Hi Wirral,

Thank you so much for your efforts on my behalf. I've been busy trying to help myself at the same time - The Genealogical Society of Victoria library in Melbourne has only just, in the last fortnight, added an Ancestry subscription to their services, so I ducked into town on Friday afternoon and had a look at the Liverpool 1861 Census to see if I could spot Mary Ann, or a George and a Mary Ann, who might have been the couple who married in 1852, but no luck there. There was an 8 year old George Griffiths with a brother John M aged 6, stepsons of William T Williams, bricklayer, the mother Mary Ann. However, I did find a John M Griffiths born to an Owen and a Mary Ann, so that didn't seem to lead anywhere. Thanks for the tip about the 1841 Liverpool Census. I had a look at the GSV library catalogue just now, and they already have it in the collection.

Somehow it must all fit together somehow, so I'll keep taking notes and keep looking. I feel that the daughter's name, Charlotte Broadley must somehow be significant, but I can't work out how. Maybe George brought Mary Ann with him to Australia, and he ditched her, or vice versa, in another colony. I have looked at that possibility before, but not in recent times when so many more powerful indexes are available, so that is something I will backtrack over.

My other plan is to locate a Partington family and torture them until they tell me what became of Mary Ann. I'm watching 'P.O.W' to get some tips.

Best wishes

Lenore

[jgriffiths]

Was doing a random google search for David Griffiths and Bird Lane when I saw this post. Wirral had been kind enough to do the initial look up of David Griffiths for me (Much appreciated :-)).

I didn't have the information on David's directory listings and am quite glad to receive it. I don't suppose you have any pictures or copies? No worries, the addresses are great.

While I am not certain whethere there was a link made between David and George, I thought I would add that David Griffiths was living at Mercer Court on Red Cross Street in 1841. Apparently with an Evan Griffiths (age 35) who is listed as a mariner. This comes from the 1841 census. IGI lookup through the Church of Latter Day Saints lists a Evan Griffiths born to John Griffiths and Ann Davies. He was christened at St. Nicholas (same place as David). I expect to find that they were brothers although unfortunately I don't have access to Parish records from here (Canada).

I haven't been able to track any further back yet.

All of this is to say, however, that I have yet to discern how David (already noted to be blind from the age of 9) was able to learn to play the piano with enouthat I have yet to discern how David (already noted to be blind from the age of 9) was able to learn to play the piano with enough proficiency to become a "professor". All his family members (assuming Evan is a brother) were mariners (John was listed as a mariner).

Not surpringsly, I was quite intrigued to read your post about George being a musician because perhaps they are related in some manner.

I also noted with some interest your suggestion that George might have had a middle class background. I was beginning to think the same thing about David. I am not sure how much money mariner's would have made but certainly David seemed to have come from a decent family. According to the 1851 census, he was living with his family and a "servant". This suggests some financial means. As an aside, David married a Catherine Minton, whose own mother appears to have been a Mary Davies. If Evan is David's brother, and their mother was Ann Davies, it may be that David and Catherine were cousins. If so, David might have learned both his profession and obtain financial means through Catherine's side of the family.

I suppose this may be entirely irrelevant for you if David and George are not related but it does seem a strange coincidence.

Perhaps you would be good enough to share any further information with me.

[Lenore]

Hello folks,

No amount of thrashing around with census indexes (on A***) and directories (on Historical Directories) has advanced my search for the family of George Griffith, Professor of Music, born circa 1824, Liverpool (maybe), so....

I have prepared myself a spreadsheet of all the possible George Griffith/s', and am attempting to eliminate those that clearly have not left for Australia by about 1853 - ie, the ones that were still in the Census after 1851, and those that died.

Thus far of the 20 possible ancestors, I have eliminated 6 still living in Liverpool. Eight died (taken from the Free BMD between 1841 and 1861). I found one burial in the Toxteth Park Cemetery for a George Griffiths in 1858, but Murphy's Law will tell you that this bloke was a ring-in, I didn't even have him on my spreadsheet, but at least it cuts the possible deaths to identify back to seven - he was not the right age.

So.....just to take one step at a time - are there any other places I could check to work out who the other seven George Griffith deaths were? More cemetery indexes (preferably with ages), or death notices, or Will indexes (preferably with occupations)? I have one each in 1841, 1850 1852, 1853 and three in 1854. I eliminated the one in 1858 on the grounds of his age.

I recognise the pitfalls of relying too heavily on ages and birthplaces and spellings of names, but in the absence of any other leads, I have to assume George was spot on with his information.

Still head banging. |banghead|

Lenoore

[daggers]

This may not help with your basic question about the musician(s) but do you know that there are passenger lists available for ships, including Liverpool-Melbourne, around the 1855 period? I found some details about a family who took passage that way.
I have not got the details handy, but I'm sure others can guide you on this, if you haven't got them already.
D

[Lenore]

Hi D,

Do you mean lists of passenger leaving Liverpool, or lists of passengers arriving in Melbourne? If the latter, I've done them to death and none the wiser. Our lists are organised into Assisted and Unassisted. To get assistance for a passage you had to show the lack of means. The information collected on passengers assisted was very helpful. The lack of information collected from respectable full fare paying passengers was deplorable, even down to not actually asking their full name.|nopity|

But if you mean lists leaving Liverpool, lead on!!!

Ta.

Lenore