Tracing Singer Family

[maisiem]

Hi

I've been trying to find my grandmother Tilly Singer, born 22nd July 1900 on the 1901 census but to no avail. Her parents are Lewis and Rebecca. I can only find one entry on that census with parents of that name but I'm 100% certain it's not the right one as the youngest listed in that entry (Rose) has a DOB only a few days before Tilly's (I got her birth certificate to check).

Although Tilly's birth certifcate and the paperwork from the synagogue give her father's name as Lewis, her wedding certificate from the GRO shows it as being Isaac (I think that may have been a lack of attention to detail on the part of the clerk as her groom's father's name was Isaac). If anyone can help or suggest another avenue of research, I'd be most grateful. Here's what I do know:

Tilly Singer - born 22 July 1900, 104 Newark Street, Mile End
Married Henry Jacobs on 29 Jan 1922.

Siblings are:

Mori (Morrice, Morris, not too sure). Married someone called Rosie
Polly (married Ted Saffor)
Rose
Fay (may be a pet name)
Annie (married someone with the surname of Gold)

[websterbfc]

Tilly's birth certificate and the paperwork from the synagogue give her father's name as Lewis, her wedding certificate from the GRO shows it as being Isaac

Hi
I have been having a look but with no luck so far

I wonder if you could tell me which synagogue is the info from and what info you have?

Also, do you have her birth cert from GRO, what does it say her fathers occupation was? Does this match up with the marriage cert occupation?

Finally, can you give (if you know) her siblings year and place of birth?

Jo

[maisiem]

Hi
I have been having a look but with no luck so far

I wonder if you could tell me which synagogue is the info from and what info you have?

Also, do you have her birth cert from GRO, what does it say her fathers occupation was? Does this match up with the marriage cert occupation?

Finally, can you give (if you know) her siblings year and place of birth?

Jo

Thanks for the reply.

I have her birth certificate from the GRO which gives her father's occupation (Lewis Singer) as Tailor's Presser.

I also have a certified copy of the entry of her birth which was made on the 6 May 1914 and this confirms all the above info. It also states that the certificate was required for the following purpose, namely: Employment in labour.

Both the above give her mother as Rebecca Singer (formerly Dovrosky).

Tilly married Henry at the Philpott Street Synagogue. I have the original marriage certificate from the synagogue plus a copy of their wedding certificate from the GRO and all the details of names and dates match exactly. There is no mention of either of their parents on the certificate from the synagogue. The GRO certificate gives her father's occupation as Tailor.

I have very little info about her siblings except:

We think Morrie was the oldest (he died in 1986)

Annie was possibly the youngest (she emigrated to LA sometime just before WWII).

Polly's daughter Alma died in the blitz.

That's it I think. My father can't remember any more and the only cousins I know of, know less than me!

Many thanks
Katharine

[websterbfc]

We think Morrie was the oldest (he died in 1986)


Do you think this could be Morries death? if so that would make him born in 1909

Morris Singer 7 Jul 1909 Feb 1986 76 Fulham London

[websterbfc]

interestingly....although probably usless...i thought i would just look to see if i could find a Tilly Dovrosky on 1901 incase they wernt married when she was born

I couldnt but i did find
Rebecca Dobrowski aged 25 with husband Louis and son Marks....wonder if they were related??

[maisiem]

Do you think this could be Morries death? if so that would make him born in 1909

Morris Singer 7 Jul 1909 Feb 1986 76 Fulham London

It could but I'm pretty sure he was the eldest and in his 80s at least when he died, so must have been born before 1900. I will double check that though!

Thanks anyway

[Karrie Cutlets]

Just a thought.. did the synagogue records show Tillys 'jewish name'. It would probably not be Tilly. It is unlikely that this would be on the census, but worth a try.

Karen

[maisiem]

Just a thought.. did the synagogue records show Tillys 'jewish name'. It would probably not be Tilly. It is unlikely that this would be on the census, but worth a try.

Karen

Ufortunately it doesn't show her Hebrew name and there isn't anyone still alive that would know it. I guess I need to keep hunting!

[Karrie Cutlets]

Good luck with you hunt:)

[pipsqueak]

Just for the record, I've been trying to help with this on and off for the past week. I've searched Tilly, Lilly, Silly (yes, the big "A" even has a few of those), Singer, Linger, Tinger, Finger, Ringer and all and any variations I can think of but none of the family combinations seem plausible. I've searched with and without wildcards, first names only, and all kinds of things and have come up with nothing more than has already posted. I even tried Wales. Were they in Scotland or abroad somewhere?

[maisiem]

Just for the record, I've been trying to help with this on and off for the past week. I've searched Tilly, Lilly, Silly (yes, the big "A" even has a few of those), Singer, Linger, Tinger, Finger, Ringer and all and any variations I can think of but none of the family combinations seem plausible. I've searched with and without wildcards, first names only, and all kinds of things and have come up with nothing more than has already posted. I even tried Wales. Were they in Scotland or abroad somewhere?


Thank you for all that searching - very kind. I have no idea if they went to Scotland, it's not something that my father has ever mentioned. As far as I know they came here from Russia/Poland and I suppose it's possible they arrived around 1900 and didn't feature on the census for some reason?

I have just received, in today's post, a birth certificate for, I think, Tilly's sister Polly. It gives the father as Lewis Singer, tailor's presser and the mother as Rebecca Singer, formerly Derchinksi (could possibly be Darchinski, Durchinski) which suggests a match to me. The address is 53 Brick Lane, Spittafields, so it's the right area. I've tried looking on A******* to see who was at that address in 1901 but the site keeps freezing!

[pipsqueak]

Well the Synagogue is next to 59 Brick Lane... but I haven't found no. 53 yet!

[Mutley]

I've searched Tilly, Lilly, Silly (yes, the big "A" even has a few of those), Singer, Linger, Tinger, Finger, Ringer and all and any variations I can think of but none of the family combinations seem plausible. I've searched with and without wildcards, first names only, and all kinds of things and have come up with nothing more than has already posted.

Me too, all that keeps showing up is the other family whose Lewis is also a Tailor.:confused:

I also tried to find Newark Street, but it is such a job to search for an address.

The census refs for Mile End / Stepney area in 1901 are RG13/301-304 and RG13/325 - 338. If they are mistranscribed they should be in there somewhere.:(

[maisiem]

Me too, all that keeps showing up is the other family whose Lewis is also a Tailor.:confused:

I also tried to find Newark Street, but it is such a job to search for an address.

The census refs for Mile End / Stepney area in 1901 are RG13/301-304 and RG13/325 - 338. If they are mistranscribed they should be in there somewhere.:(


I found 104 Newark Street in the 1901 census but there's no mention of the Singer family.

I am as positive as I can be that the other Singer family is a different one. On the 1901 census this other family are living at 105 Parkhurst Street, East Ham. The youngest daughter listed is Rose/Rosa. I ordered her birth certificate and the address matches exactly. Her DOB is the same month as my grandmother Tilly's so that has to elimiate them - surely? Or have I gone mad?|banghead|

[Karrie Cutlets]

Have you tried looking for naturalisation papers... my gt grandfathers came here as a small boy in about 1850 & didnt get naturalised until about 1906. The papers gave me alot of very interesting information, apart from details of the actual words he said at the hearing.

Incidentally mine were all tailors too in Fournier Street.. an awful lot of the jewish immigrants were tailors at that time

[Karrie Cutlets]

i also spent some time looking for Tilly under various spellings but couldnt find her, thats why i suggested the yiddish name. It may just be that she was visiting on the day of the census & got left off it.

[pipsqueak]

Well I finally found no. 53 Brick Lane in 1901. The house is occupied by one Israel Kosiner and family; wife Pearl, and children Jetty (it really does look like that), Minnie, Mark, Aby and Himi. :(

[Karrie Cutlets]

My gt grandfather was turned down for naturalisation the first time.. as an unwanted alien.

His crime was to say that one his children was living with him but in fact was living with his music teacher. That child was a prodigy & was a famous pianist called Solomon (my gt Uncle).

i believe the reason my gt grandfather went for naturalisation is he probably believed that jews would be thrown back to the country where they originated!!

[pipsqueak]

I keep thinking of little stories of intrigue... not to cast aspersions on the Singers, but to explain why they aren't on the census when they are clearly in London just before and just afterwards.

Suppose Singer is an anglicised or an adopted name. Suppose Lewis and family are visiting or living with people who would disapprove of their renaming, and so they pretended to have kept their "real" names and those are on the census!

Suppose Lewis is really Ludovic or Levi? (Not that Levi would have been thought particularly foreign.)

Suppose they were employed in a sweatshop and were not registered!!

[pipsqueak]

His crime was to say that one his children was living with him but in fact was living with his music teacher. That child was a prodigy & was a famous pianist called Solomon (my gt Uncle).



OOH! My parents had one of his records! One of those old 78s - I remember it well!! :)

[Mutley]

I am as positive as I can be that the other Singer family is a different one. On the 1901 census this other family are living at 105 Parkhurst Street, East Ham. The youngest daughter listed is Rose/Rosa. I ordered her birth certificate and the address matches exactly. Her DOB is the same month as my grandmother Tilly's so that has to elimiate them - surely? Or have I gone mad?|banghead|

I doubt you have gone mad, though sometimes, I think I am heading in that direction;)

I also don't see how it could be your family, they are just so close!! I even wondered if, as there was a couple of spare lines under them, Tilly was left off but they would have had to be twins born days apart. I have heard it happen. I don't think so though, that would be a well passed down family story.

Roll on the 1911 census:)

[Karrie Cutlets]

You may well be right about the change of name. Certainly a lot of my eastern European names were anglisized. In fact some jewish people may not have had surnames at all. My maiden name is actually the village that they lived in when in Poland.



My brother has all the original 78 LP's of Solomon, but I have the music on cd's. You can also find him on youtube believe it or not.

I vaguely remember meeting him when i was very young, but after he had a stroke so couldnt play the piano anymore.

[pipsqueak]

I'm now looking at all Russion-born "visitors". You'd be surprised at some of the names - some sound Russian, others are obviously adopted British names and others sound like an English person has tried to write down a Russian name, like "Harris Unchelevelch". One poor chap has NK for everything except place of birth, which is Russia.
........

However, no joy there, so I'm back to Singers. One good thing is that by the time I'm done, we'll know that if we haven't found 'em, they ain't there!

[maisiem]

Have you tried looking for naturalisation papers... my gt grandfathers came here as a small boy in about 1850 & didnt get naturalised until about 1906. The papers gave me alot of very interesting information, apart from details of the actual words he said at the hearing.

Incidentally mine were all tailors too in Fournier Street.. an awful lot of the jewish immigrants were tailors at that time

Yes, I've spent some time on the NA site looking for naturalisation papers but again, to no avail. I will try again though using the name Derchinsky etc.

[maisiem]

I keep thinking of little stories of intrigue... not to cast aspersions on the Singers, but to explain why they aren't on the census when they are clearly in London just before and just afterwards.

Suppose Singer is an anglicised or an adopted name. Suppose Lewis and family are visiting or living with people who would disapprove of their renaming, and so they pretended to have kept their "real" names and those are on the census!

Suppose Lewis is really Ludovic or Levi? (Not that Levi would have been thought particularly foreign.)

Suppose they were employed in a sweatshop and were not registered!!

Now, that all sounds almost romantic if you don't stop and imagine the appalling conditions!

It's just so frustrating that there is no one around in the family that I can ask. Some of my father's first cousins are still alive but for some very delicate reasons, it would be a bit difficult to get in touch with them. My father's memory isn't too great when it comes to family things. He didn't know his grandfather on his maternal side at all and all he says about Rebecca is that she only spoke yiddish - doesn't really make her unique does it!

[maisiem]

I keep thinking of little stories of intrigue... not to cast aspersions on the Singers, but to explain why they aren't on the census when they are clearly in London just before and just afterwards.

Suppose Singer is an anglicised or an adopted name. Suppose Lewis and family are visiting or living with people who would disapprove of their renaming, and so they pretended to have kept their "real" names and those are on the census!

Suppose Lewis is really Ludovic or Levi? (Not that Levi would have been thought particularly foreign.)

Suppose they were employed in a sweatshop and were not registered!!

Oh, please do cast aspersions - you wouldn't be the first! My mum always said the singer sisters were completely barking!

[maisiem]

I doubt you have gone mad, though sometimes, I think I am heading in that direction;)

I also don't see how it could be your family, they are just so close!! I even wondered if, as there was a couple of spare lines under them, Tilly was left off but they would have had to be twins born days apart. I have heard it happen. I don't think so though, that would be a well passed down family story.

Roll on the 1911 census:)

Yes, I agree - it would be just too weird.

[maisiem]

I'm now looking at all Russion-born "visitors". You'd be surprised at some of the names - some sound Russian, others are obviously adopted British names and others sound like an English person has tried to write down a Russian name, like "Harris Unchelevelch". One poor chap has NK for everything except place of birth, which is Russia.
........

However, no joy there, so I'm back to Singers. One good thing is that by the time I'm done, we'll know that if we haven't found 'em, they ain't there!

Many thanks for this, your help is much appreciated.

[maisiem]

As I mentioned above, I now have a birth certificate for a Polly Singer, who I think is Tilly's sister, even though the mother's maiden name is given as Derchinsky and not Dovrosky. If could just find Morrie's or Rose's certificate to get some more confirmation!

[pipsqueak]

Many thanks for this, your help is much appreciated.

No probs - it makes a pleasant change for me to delve through Jewish names instead of Welsh ones!

[maisiem]

No probs - it makes a pleasant change for me to delve through Jewish names instead of Welsh ones!

I bet! I used to married to a Welsh man - luckily his name was Jones!

[maisiem]

This morning, the postman delivered the birth certificate for Annie Singer, Tilly's older sister. DOB 17 Jun 1898, 42 Spital Street. Father, Lewis Singer, Tailor's Presser. Mother, Rebecca Singer, formerly Dolochensky. The hunt continues!

[Karrie Cutlets]

Let us know if you find them, you have got me intrigued now

[pipsqueak]

It seems that Rebecca's maiden name changes every time! I wonder which is the most accurate spelling.

[Karrie Cutlets]

Unfortunatley it seemed that spellings of 'foreigners' names changed all the time.. my maiden name went through at least 4 different spelling over 2 census & a number of birth entries

[Karrie Cutlets]

But of course it makes the hunt more exciting

[pipsqueak]

Spitalfields was a very densely populated area in 1901 - there are so many pages and hardly any logic to which district a particular street appears in*. There are a lot of temnement buildings and lodging houses - I suppose much of it was bombed in the war and it probably looks very different now.

I've been trying to locate 42 Spital Street for the past 30 minutes - on the map it's within spitting distance of Brick Lane but I can't for the life of me find it on the census. Does anyone know which district it appears in?

[Mutley]

Administrative County was London
Civil Parish was Spitalfields
Ecclesiastical Parish was Christ Church
Parliamentary Borough was Whitechapel
Municipal Borough was Stepney
Registration District was Whitechapel RG3/297 - 300

Everything you did not want to know and not what you asked:)

[maisiem]

I may be barking up completely the wrong tree here, but I have found a family on the 1901 census:

27 Casson St, Mile End New Town

Lewis Meyer - 23 - Tailor's Presser
Rebecca - 23
Annie - 3 (fits with known DOB of 1898
Lilly - 9 months (although this could be read as Tilly and it fits with DOB 1900)

Now, that all fits exactly, exact for the surname of course. Probably wishful thinking on my part I expect.

[pipsqueak]

I think I've found them!!!!

If you can, take a look at the 1901 census: Class: RG13; Piece: 302; Folio: 133; Page: 33.

Residing at 27 Casson Street, Mile End New Town, in the parish of St Olave, in one room, we have this family:

Lewis Meyer, age 23, Occupation: Tailor's Presser. Born in Russia
Rebecca Meyer, age 23, born in Russia
Annie Meyer, age 3, born in Whitechapel
Lilly Meyer, age 9 months, born in Whitechapel

We can't know with certainty that this is the Singer family, but everything else seems to fit. Bearing in mind that the person who wrote these entries was copying from the forms submitted by the heads of household it is possible that the Russian handwriting showing "Singer" could have been misread as "Meyer", and that Tilly could have been misread as Lilly.

[pipsqueak]

D'oh! You found it at the same time as me!!!

[maisiem]

Aren't we both just brilliant?! I've got a feeling in my bones that this is them. If so, then this has really made my day.

[pipsqueak]

Yes we ARE! I really think we have them, and I think my explanation is highly plausible, don't you? Can we find Lewis or Rebecca in 1891 or were they still in Russia?

I have to go now, but if you look at a map of the area, they kept moving within a very tiny area of London - jsut a few streets away each time. Clearly right in the tailoring/Jewish area of the East End.

Now I HAVE to get on with some housework!!!

[maisiem]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. They were both illiterate so god only knows what their name looked like written down. I haven't found them anywhere else yet - but never say die.

[maisiem]

Just to add another piece of info which could also support the above.

Rebecca's DOD is the 21 Oct 1940 aged 61. This would mean that she was born in 1878/79 which fits with the Meyer family |biggrin|

I also have a death cetificate dated 1909 for Lewis Singer, Tailor's Presser, aged 34. Death notified by Rebecca Singer. This would also fit (roughly) with Lewis Meyer's age.

His early death fits in with the fact that we know that Rebecca remarried.

[pipsqueak]

...are you saying that Lewis was 34 in 1901? Lewis Meyer was 23. If Rebecca was 61 in 1940, she would have been about the right age as shown in 1901 but not Lewis.....

Do you think they didn't really tell the truth about their ages or that they didn't know?

Who did Rebecca marry after Lewis died and what was the date of his death?

[Mutley]

I am so glad you have found them, I looked at that one so often because though there are mainy tailors there are not so many pressers.

Now to find Morris and Rose, I wonder if they are boarding nearby?

[maisiem]

...are you saying that Lewis was 34 in 1901? Lewis Meyer was 23. If Rebecca was 61 in 1940, she would have been about the right age as shown in 1901 but not Lewis.....

Do you think they didn't really tell the truth about their ages or that they didn't know?

Who did Rebecca marry after Lewis died and what was the date of his death?


Sorry, that's my typo - he was 34 in 1909. I will edit my post!

After Lewis died, Rebecca married someone by the name of Fox (first name possibly Julius). We have no more info about him at all. We know she died in Aylesbury in 1940 (she was evacuated there with my father).

[maisiem]

I am so glad you have found them, I looked at that one so often because though there are mainy tailors there are not so many pressers.

Now to find Morris and Rose, I wonder if they are boarding nearby?

I beginning to think that Morrie and Rose must have been younger siblings and not older as previously thought. I think I'm going to have to send off for some more certificates.

[pipsqueak]

Maisie - you mentioned that Morrie died in 1986. I've looked him up in the death index and found two possible entries (both of which make him younger than both Annie and Tilly).

Maurice Singer
born 28 Jan 1916
died May 1986 age 70
Enfield, Middlesex

Morris Singer
Born 7 Jul 1909
died Feb 1986
age 76
Fulham, London

How would he be a Singer if Rebecca married a Fox and if Lewis was possibly even a Meyer?????

[Mutley]

If he was older it may be worth having a quick look here.
It is the Jews Hospital and Orphan Asylum.
There are several Morris first names (one a Meyer) born Whitechapel area.
Class: RG13; Piece: 439; Folio: 78; Page: 3.

Good Luck

[maisiem]

Maisie - you mentioned that Morrie died in 1986. I've looked him up in the death index and found two possible entries (both of which make him younger than both Annie and Tilly).

Maurice Singer
born 28 Jan 1916
died May 1986 age 70
Enfield, Middlesex

Morris Singer
Born 7 Jul 1909
died Feb 1986
age 76
Fulham, London

How would he be a Singer if Rebecca married a Fox and if Lewis was possibly even a Meyer?????

Good question! I'm pretty sure he was Lewis's child but he may indeed have been a fox. I don't think he would have ended up in Fulham, more likely North London. I will as my dad some pertinent questions about this.

[pipsqueak]

Maurice Fox 18 Aug 1905 Apr 1986 80 Liverpool Lancashire

Probably not him. But worth a look, I thought.

[Karrie Cutlets]

Well done. I'm so pleased that you found them

[maisiem]

Right, I have been inspired by my recent find and by all the help offered to me by forum members. I have been plaguing my father for more details and I now know that Rebecca may have come from Plotz (sp?) or was there at the age of 14. Tilly's sister Fay was called Fajela at home but we're pretty convinced she was named Fanny on her birth certificate which I think I've found on BMD. I think I've managed to find her marriage cert too, to Hertzel (Harry) Gable, so I feel that I'm going great guns at the moment. However, I still can't find any record of the family before 1901 and I'm a bit stuck now as to what to do or where to look next! Any suggestions, gratefully received.

Maisie

[Karrie Cutlets]

Some of mine came from Plotz, so if you fancy a trip there one day..let me know.. we may need to learn a bit of Polish

[maisiem]

Really? So was Plotz in Russia back in the 1800s?

[Karrie Cutlets]

I think it was. My Uncle got some transcripts reporting the birth of my gt gt gt grandfather.. it starts off 'two jews came & reported a birth'. All very biblical

[maisiem]

I also found this info on Jewishgen:
THE RUSSIAN PALE -- PAST AND PRESENT JURISDICTIONS |
+-------------------------------+-------------------------------+
| RUSSIAN PALE 1835-1917 | EASTERN EUROPE since 1991 |
|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
| Gubernia Capital | City Name Country |
| (Province) City | |
+-------------------------------+-------------------------------+
| Bessarabia Kishinev Kishinev Moldova |
| Chernigov Chernigov Chernihiv Ukraine |
| Cherson Cherson Kherson Ukraine |
| Grodne Grodne Grodno Belarus |
| Kelts (CP) Kelts Kielce Poland |
| Kiev Kiev Kyiv Ukraine |
| Kolesh (CP) Kolesh Kalisz Poland |
| Kovne *Kovne Kaunas Lithuania |
| Lomze (CP) Lomze Lomza Poland |
| Lublin (CP) Lublin Lublin Poland |
| Minsk Minsk Minsk Belarus |
| Mohilev Mohilev Mogilev Belarus |
| Pietrkov (CP) Pietrkov Piotrkow Poland |
| Plotzk (CP) Plotzk Plock Poland |


CONGRESS POLAND (Kingdom of Poland): part of Poland occupied by
the Russian Empire, 1815-1918. The 10 gubernii (1867-1917): Suwalki,
Lomza, Plock, Warszawa, Siedlce, Lublin, Radom, Kielce, Piotrkow and
Kalisz. Today, all in east-central Poland

[maisiem]

I think it might be then again the borders seemed to change so much, it's terribly confusing!

[pipsqueak]

Gosh! You of Russian-Jewish descent have my sympathies in the genealogy department! A lot weren't even Russian, they were Polish! Just going through the names of Russian immigrants in London is a headache (as I've found, during this long and fascinating story) - many seem to have completely ditched their Russian names and plumped for "easy" English ones. There are quite a few called Lewis Harris, for example, born in Russia. One poor man simply called himself Mr Russian! How ever do people manage to find their real ancestors?

I shall never again complain about how dull it is to be tracking Williamses around Wales..

|nopity|

[Mutley]

Tilly's sister Fay was called Fajela at home but we're pretty convinced she was named Fanny on her birth certificate which I think I've found on BMD.
Maisie
So maybe Tilly was listed under another name. I tried Matilda but if we are thinking along Russian/Polish names I have no idea.

Then again, I am sure I tried Singer and all variations without a first name. I feel sure she is there but with a name we are not looking at. One would not automatically try Meyer for Singer ;)

If the first name is a nickname, the surname is mistranscribed and no one knows how to spell the mother's name then we really are looking for inspiration. However, I will keep trying and report back if I think I have a possible.

Beats looking for my Elizabeth Smith. :)

[MaisieM]

Well, nearly 3 years on from my original post and I'm a tiny bit further forward - but not much! I know have three futher little mysteries to solve...

I've accepted (through lack of any other info) that the Meyer's on the 1901 census are in fact my Singers. I then started to see if I could find out anything else about them.

Lewis Singer (Meyer) died in 1909 of TB. I have a copy of the Death Certificate and Rebecca is listed on the 1911 census as a widow.

The 1911 census shows Rebecca (Becky) living with children Annie, Tilly, Polly and Fay. It also mentions that one child has died and I think this must be Rose.

Mystery No. 1
Apparently, Rebecca's son Morrie was the youngest and not the eldest. I think he was born in 1920 but am awaiting delivery of his Birth cetificate to confirm that. He obviously wasn't born at the time of the 1911 census and Rebecca didn't marry again (to Julius Furs/Fox) until 1932. So, who was his father. I'm wonderign if the BC will give any info but I'm not holding my breath!

Mystery No. 2
Rebecca's marriage certificate (to Julius Fours/Fox) shows a name for her father! Hurray, at last! But... his name is given as Moses Israel Berchinsky (or Berchensly) a Hebrew Teacher (or leader). So I know have at least 4 different variants on their surname.

Mystery No. 3
I now have the wedding certificate for Tilly's sister, Fay to Harry Gable (Herzl Goeble) which shows her father as Lazarus rather than Lewis.

Any suggestions about where to go to find out anything mroe about Rebecca, Lewis or Moses would be most greatefully received.

[Hilda Woodley]

Hi Maisie, I have just read your whole post and can sympathise with your struggle - just a thought, Lazarus Meyer worked in the tailoring industry, when you want to assimilate with the local population you adopt a name from the things familiar to you - sewing machines - Singer. Lazarus to Lewis is obvious.

My husband's GGGF was David Davis - clearly not his jewish surname when he arrived in England - but as a watchmaker/jeweller my above theory goes out the window - so I just keep on hoping for a miracle. Good luck.
Tons of luv
Hilda

[CemeteryScribes]

Hi
I haven't been able to study all the info on this thread but wondered if you have looked into your family's Jewish names as a way of connecting them all up and helping to prove the theories.

You mention in one of the posts having the Synagogue record of the marriage, is this the Ketubah? if so it would have their Jewish names in the Hebrew text. As you probably already know the Jewish name will indicate the father's name as it will have 'a' son of 'b'. I wonder if Lazarus/Lewis' father was called Meir/Meyer.

It should be possible for you to get the marriage authorisations from the Beth Din, these often show more information than the marriage. It will show the bride and groom, their Jewish names, their father's name, their address and brothers. And/or you can get burial records which also show further info. Plus you could find out where they were buried, from what you have said I would think Edmonton Federation Cemetery is a possible. The inscription on the tombstones may be of help.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

[MaisieM]

Thanks Hilda, the search goes on, sigh...

[MaisieM]

You mention in one of the posts having the Synagogue record of the marriage, is this the Ketubah? if so it would have their Jewish names in the Hebrew text. As you probably already know the Jewish name will indicate the father's name as it will have 'a' son of 'b'. I wonder if Lazarus/Lewis' father was called Meir/Meyer.

It should be possible for you to get the marriage authorisations from the Beth Din, these often show more information than the marriage. It will show the bride and groom, their Jewish names, their father's name, their address and brothers. And/or you can get burial records which also show further info. Plus you could find out where they were buried, from what you have said I would think Edmonton Federation Cemetery is a possible. The inscription on the tombstones may be of help.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
Gaby (CemeteryScribes)

Hi Gaby
Many thanks for the advice. Unfortunately the only Ketubah I have is for the marriage between Rebecca's daughter Tilly (my Grandmother) and Henry Jacobs (my grandfather). I think Rebecca and Lewis may have been married before coming to the UK but I could be totally wrong! I have noticed however from re-checking the phot of Rebecca's headstone that she had male siblings so that may be another route to explore...

I do however have some info from another baord member who did a look up for me on Henry's father's marriage - wrong side of course but still interesting!

"Isaac Jacobs age 23, father Simon Jacobs (Yitzhank b. Pinhas) 24 Dunk Street marrying a Millie Hart 21 (Note Bride is Minnie in Register), father Joseph Hart (Mindella b. Yosef Halevi) also 24 Dunk Street married on the 10th January 1877, Great Synagogue"

Best wishes
Katharine

[CemeteryScribes]

Hi Katharine,

Is there any Hebrew in Rebecca's tombstone? if so should have her Jewish name and possibly 'wife of ... ' which would mean it would have Lewis' Jewish name.

[MaisieM]

Hi Gaby
The headstone does contaijn some Herbrew and I will ask a friend of mine to translate that for me - I don't know why I didn't think of that before! The rest of the inscription is in English as says:

In loving memory of
REBECCA FOX (SINGER)
Who died 31st October 1940
Aged 61
Deeply mourned by her
sorrowing husband, son
daughters, sons-in-law, brothers
sisters and grandchildren
Peace to her dear soul

Lewis died in 1909 of TB and exhausation (!) and Rebecca remarried in 1932 to Julius Fox (Furs). She had one son, Morrie, who was born after the 1911 census but before her second marriage. I don't know who his father was!

[CemeteryScribes]

Hi

Well the Hebrew inscription should give you Rebecca's Hebrew name which is always useful to have. You don't say where she was buried but likely that Lewis was buried there too (?) have you seen his headstone? worth trying to find it to get his Hebrew name.

Then armed with that info it may help you trace a marriage in the records on JewishGen for Russia / Poland, as you suspect it took place there.

You may also get some indication of Lewis and Rebecca's parents names by looking at their children's names if you are familiar with Ashkenazi naming practices.

Morrie's father's name should be indicated by his Hebrew name so again his marriage/tombstone etc may give you this info.

[MaisieM]

Hi again Gaby
My friend has come back with a translation (English isn't her first language)

"M. Rivka, bar Moshe (mosses) Israel who past away in Adar (Hebrew name for that month)
the next 2 words I don't understand, than it says the age she was when she past away in the letters that symbolize the age of 61 (like a=1 b=2 c=3 but ) each letter in the alpha bet is a number,
than there is a 4 letters at the bottom which is an abbreviation of something like rest her soul in peace."

I think I have something at home with the location of the grave on it, I'll check later this evening. If so, then I might be able to get someone to go and have a look for Lewis's plot (I haven't seen his headstone). Hopefully Morrie's birth certificate will arrive soon and give me another lead to follow!

[CemeteryScribes]

Hi

Ok, so now you know that Rebecca was Rivka daughter of Moshe. So when you come to look at marriages on Jewishgen it could help to determine if you have found the right one. Ideally you would want the same info for her husband Lewis.

Rivka is equivalent to Rebecca as Moshe is Moses.

As I administer the CemeteryScribes website I am familiar with how the Hebrew inscriptions work and yes Hebrew letters have a numerical equivalent for the want of a better explanation although sometimes they are written in words rather than in letters.

Have you looked around to see if Rebecca's father was in the UK as well? Can't remember now what his family name was but you would be looking for a Moses or similar.