NEED ROBERT HOLMAN EARLY 1800s

[Tabatha]

I have a GGF by name of Robert Holman (b.1831 Brixton, Surrey - he married Martha Baker in 1857). I have marr. certificate my father passed down.
His father, (my GGGF) is Robert Holman. I need to know who he is.
Among 5 children, GGF had son by name of Robert Henry Holman (b.1862 Paddington). I mention it only because it is the cause of confusion later.
I have done very much research trying to go back and each time I find something exciting it does not give me the exact proof I need.
Censuses are inadequate for GGF in '41 and '51. Nothing links him to his father. In fact I'm not sure I've really found him in those years. Mother is unknown.
I have much more information on my searches and discoveries for this one problem, but to keep this short I am not including it. If anyone wants to see it and the several brickwalls it presents, I can e-mail it. Meantime I'm reading thru others' responses to similar questions to see if I can pick up any tips I might be able to use.
I will appreciate any help at all. Thank you!:)

[Jan1954]

According to GENUKI, Camberwell was within the hundred of Brixton:
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/SRY/Camberwell/index.php

So, bearing that in mind, could this be Robert's christening in 1831 on the IGI:

ROBERT HOLMAN Christening: 21 AUG 1831 Saint Giles, Camberwell, London

Father: ROBERT HOLMAN
Mother: MARY ANN

Source information:
Batch No.: P006261
Dates: 1816 - 1845
Source Call No.: 0254571-0254577

[Jan1954]

Now, moving back in time, Deptford was also part of East Brixton hundred. See here: http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/SRY/Deptford/index.php

Working on that, could this be the christening of Robert's father, Robert:

ROBERT HOLMAN Christening: 08 DEC 1805 Saint Nicholas, Deptford, London

Father: RICHD. HOLMAN
Mother: JANE

Source Information:
Batch No.: P001622
Dates: 1801 - 1847
Source Call No.: 0820686 IT 3

Well, 'tis something to consider...

[Tabatha]

Yes, Jan, I found those names and proceeded to work further with them but I found some questions when I went into all the censuses.
First of all I found a death for a Robert Henry at 19..
Then in 1881(April) I found Henry Holman (19) living with sister Fanny (also b.Brixton) AND father Robert at 74 yrs. old (always lived in Lambeth so that was good). I ordered the marriage cert. for Henry and could not prove his name to be ROBERT Henry. But his father was stated to be Robert.
That w/b GGF Robt. 1831. I even thought the son went by Henry because there were so many Roberts. But wouldn't his marr. cert. have shown his full name?
So my first hangup was not being able to prove Henry is Robert henry.
THEN to make things worse I searched marr. for the elder Robert 1805 and Ann Holyday comes up. But how do I know that is the right couple?? Their 7 children (2 being Robert and Fanny) show Mary Ann OR ANN for mothers and they alternate so that would mean no divorce. But worse than that the censuses show her as Mary and Mary Ann and sometimes without Robert.
'41 she's mary and no robt. with her; '51 she's mary w/robt., '61 she's maryann with no husband shown but she is WIFE. I can't find him in most censuses.
I'm wondering if Robert and Ann Holyday is not the right marriage.
And is there a marriage for Robert and Mary Ann????? I have not been able to find that.
I appreciate your help with this - I have searched on Family Search for marriages and have not come up with any that had a Robt. for a son.
What am I missing????

[Waitabit]

Tabitha, there is a Lady on Genes Reunited who has a Robert Holman b.1831 Brixton, Surrey.

:) Wendy

[Geoffers]

I have a GGF by name of Robert Holman (b.1831 Brixton, Surrey.......Censuses are inadequate for GGF in '41 and '51. Nothing links him to his father

Do you believe that your ol'bor is the chap shown in the London Orphan Asylum in 1841?
Census return HO107/698/13 f9 p12

Do any admision registers survive which shed any light? - Try A2A, London Metropolitan Archive, TNA.

What does the 1851 census record for your chap?



The 1841 census also has HO107/737/16 f7 p6
New Rochester Row, St.John the Evangelist, Westminster
Robert HOLMAN, 35, together with family.

This may be the chap to which the 1905 IGI entry refers.


But wouldn't his marr. cert. have shown his full name?

Not necessarily - what is recorded depends on what is asked and also whether someone tells the truth.

[Tabatha]

Hi, Wendy, that is probably my 2nd cousin's friend in Australia. I asked her to help me last week since it's her family too. She has a subscription to that
site. I'll check with her to see how long she's had it on there.
Thank you very much for checking around.

[Tabatha]

Hi, Geoffers, thanks for the reply.
Yes, the orphanage entry is the one I show on my rough chart but I'm not convinced. Someone did tell me that it wouldn't mean he was an orphan but that he was perhaps 'disabled' in some way or temporarily ill.
I did not do any checking because I didn't know how. I have the hardest time trying to understand the ARchives. I did actually find a will on there and a military record other than than I feel very ignorant. I'll give it a try with the info you've given me and see what I get. I appreciate that!!!

For Robert (1831) the only entry I found for 20 yrs old was a Footman working in Norwood, Croydon, south of London. For a Mary Ann Masters.
(Note that name again: mary ann). So I still have no proof it's him but in
1861 he shows up married on Conduit Place, {Paddington). But no connection with the senior robt.:)

[Tabatha]

Geoffers, would you mind very much giving me the family names and ages etc. off that 1841 census
for the robt 1805. I don't have anything on his family and anything might
help.
I'd sure appreciate it and esp. if the wife shows up with yet a diff. name.

[Tabatha]

Now, moving back in time, Deptford was also part of East Brixton hundred. See here: http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/SRY/Deptford/index.php
[I]
Working on that, could this be the christening of Robert's father, Robert:

ROBERT HOLMAN Christening: 08 DEC 1805 Saint Nicholas, Deptford, London

Well, 'tis something to consider...


Jan,

I've been looking again at what you said about Deptford, Kent being in Brixton hundred. I only looked at it as being a diff. county from Surrey and so there was a question always in my mind. But seeing it in this light I feel better about that.

Tabatha.

[Tabatha]

[QUOTE=Geoffers;166836]The 1841 census also has HO107/737/16 f7 p6
New Rochester Row, St.John the Evangelist, Westminster
Robert HOLMAN, 35, together with family.

This may be the chap to which the 1905 IGI entry refers.



Geoffers, I DO have that census entry in my notes. Sorry. And also sorry to say it's not the right one. And the son Robt. was only a year old but he was born in 1831 so the dates don't work.
-------------------------------------------
My Robt MAY be the one in the orphanage and I did find the place in the archives to search but didn't find anything for admissions for St. Johns, Hackney london orphanage for 1841, or for boys in that time frame. But I learned a lot about the site in trying to get around. It's mind boggling. I did learn from British History Online that the asylum was a school - there's a tremendous amt. of information on that site also. Thks for starting me on a new
way to search!
Tabatha.