Help identifying a uniform

[KarenT]

I just recently received a box of photos in an old cigar box, though most of them weren't identified, I've worked out quite a lot of them.

However, this is one person I haven't identified - it's a photo on a post card. There are several post cards in the box, made from various family photos of weddings, holidays etc - as was popular at the time - so I am assuming this is a family member at the moment (though I could be wrong!)

It was sent in 1905 (within Australia). It was from a father (my husband's great grandfather b1868) to his young son (my husband's grandfather b1901), but I know it is not either one of them so it could possibly be the father's father or older relative, dating it later. They were born here, but I believe the family was of Scottish origin.

Would anyone be able to help me re his uniform?
Is it a military uniform... I have no idea!
A country or a timeframe?
Any ideas of where to look? :) Thanks for looking!


http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/orinj/postcard1.jpg

[KarenT]

I have made another assumption :confused:that the possible connection is on the writer's family side; it possibly could have been his wife's. Her father was a Captain in the 57th Regiment in Madras, India at the time of his marriage in 1838 and a Lieutenant with the 94th Regiment at the time of his death in 1847.

[ChristineR]

I think it could be a band uniform, but if so, it is a pity he was not carrying an instrument to prove it.

I have looked about on the web a bit and I don't think that they would have worn such sidecaps early enough to be the wife's father in India. The officers were more into plumed tall hats (shakos). I had to look up the date, photographic process first became public in 1839, but it might not have been possible to use those early images to make a postcard at a later date.

The braid on the sleeve is very ornate, and of a similar shape to the pattern on the screen beside him. A lot of the brass band pictures I saw on the web were heavy with the braid on the lower sleeve, and the stripe on the trousers.

But of course, I would not be surprised if I was wrong :D

ChristineR

[Mary Anne]

Any clues in the photographer's name, Karen?

Here's a photo posted from a WW1 forum, but India, even though the uniforms are later (1911)...

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=96737&hl=


Mary Anne

[KarenT]

I think it could be a band uniform, but if so, it is a pity he was not carrying an instrument to prove it.

I have looked about on the web a bit and I don't think that they would have worn such sidecaps early enough to be the wife's father in India. The officers were more into plumed tall hats (shakos). I had to look up the date, photographic process first became public in 1839, but it might not have been possible to use those early images to make a postcard at a later date.

The braid on the sleeve is very ornate, and of a similar shape to the pattern on the screen beside him. A lot of the brass band pictures I saw on the web were heavy with the braid on the lower sleeve, and the stripe on the trousers.

But of course, I would not be surprised if I was wrong :D

ChristineR

Thanks Christine, a band uniform def sounds viable - yes, an instrument would have helped!
I had thought the wide stripe along the leg and the brocade may have made it some sort of ceremonial uniform. The style of the coat just didn't fit anything I saw either. I'll have a look up band uniforms.... if I can just fix some sort of a time frame!

There are no other photos of this person - so this made me think it could have been an old photo at the time they had made into the post card. There's no one left anymore to ask:(

(Everyone! |scold| name your photos!:))

[KarenT]

Any clues in the photographer's name, Karen?

Here's a photo posted from a WW1 forum, but India, even though the uniforms are later (1911)...

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=96737&hl=


Mary Anne

Thanks Mary Anne - I'm not a member of that forum so it's not coming up for me - I may have to join to check the photo or even to put my query there!

The photo's been transferred to a post card so the original photographer / place is not there unfortunately. No clues at all!

[ChristineR]

http://www.ibew.co.uk/

I mainly looked at the photos around the 1900 mark, there were a few with the sidecaps, but most favoured different head wear.

Yes, I thought the coat was wrong for military.

Another thing I thought of overnight was a theatre usher, a hotel doorman, or a men's club attendant of some sort. :D

ChristineR

[KarenT]

http://www.ibew.co.uk/

I mainly looked at the photos around the 1900 mark, there were a few with the sidecaps, but most favoured different head wear.

Yes, I thought the coat was wrong for military.

Another thing I thought of overnight was a theatre usher, a hotel doorman, or a men's club attendant of some sort. :D

ChristineR


LOLs ... I had thought of a Hotel Doorman! It just doesn't seem to fit with this family anywhere though - they seemed quite well-to-do for the times.
Perhaps it is a photo of a Hotel Doorman he took on a holiday!|doh|
I feel it will remain a mystery to me!!!

[ChristineR]

And then there are marching bands, would explain the lack of an instrument - not all had them.

:) and now I'm not thinking about it any more.

[ChristineR]

Okay, so it is bothering me! :D

I am looking at pictures on the Picture Australia website, and now I am of the definite opinion that it is a military mess dress uniform! One picture has a gentlemen in one, and it has the same shaped jacket.

With the waistcoat, you can just see a little bit of braid peeping out on the left (I thought it was a watch chain first) and there are a couple of different mess waistcoats with the braid the same shape in that position and the same fastening on the front, though not with the edgings. And another photo of an army mess jacket does have the edgings.

A photograph of Sir John Monash, a young adult, is dressed almost identically except he has different sleeve embellishments - but the collar and braid on the shoulders look the same. A lot of the uniforms have that same twisted pattern on the cuff in one form or another - I suppose those extra bits on your fellows denote a particular regiment.

Come to think of it! he has the same mustache as John Monash in another photo I just spotted - 1896. But I don't think it is him.

ChristineR :)

[KarenT]

Okay, so it is bothering me! :D

I am looking at pictures on the Picture Australia website, and now I am of the definite opinion that it is a military mess dress uniform! One picture has a gentlemen in one, and it has the same shaped jacket.

With the waistcoat, you can just see a little bit of braid peeping out on the left (I thought it was a watch chain first) and there are a couple of different mess waistcoats with the braid the same shape in that position and the same fastening on the front, though not with the edgings. And another photo of an army mess jacket does have the edgings.

A photograph of Sir John Monash, a young adult, is dressed almost identically except he has different sleeve embellishments - but the collar and braid on the shoulders look the same. A lot of the uniforms have that same twisted pattern on the cuff in one form or another - I suppose those extra bits on your fellows denote a particular regiment.

Come to think of it! he has the same mustache as John Monash in another photo I just spotted - 1896. But I don't think it is him.

ChristineR :)

I've only just seen this post! And I had tucked him away in his cigar box. I'd been thinking you really were on the right track with the marching uniform - I thought that that must be what that banner is behind him.

I will have to look up John Monash! Just when I thought it was sorted!
thanks Christine!

[KarenT]

I've just looked up the mess dress uniforms on NLA... Oh my gosh, you're right... it really does look to be the one! |jumphappy

I might just be able to work out who it is from this!
Thanks Christine, I would never have looked up 'mess dress' in a million years! It had me perplexed why it wouldn't have had any 'stripes' as such.

[KarenT]

Just to let you know Christine - I now am quite sure the pic is of the ancestor who wrote the post card |biggrin|- I really thought it wasn't him - all the photos I have of him I guess he is in his 60's and he just looks so so so different. I think this photo would put him in his 30's but I thought 'this person' looked somewhat older than that. Also he was an Insurance Clerk then Accountant!
Anyway, a check with the NAA and he seems to have been an officer! Can't wait for the file!:)
I couldn't see that photo of Monash in similiar attire - the moustache style must have been the fashion for the time as I think it was probably around the same time!
Thanks heaps Christine... you really got me on the right path!


Okay, so it is bothering me! :D

I am looking at pictures on the Picture Australia website, and now I am of the definite opinion that it is a military mess dress uniform! One picture has a gentlemen in one, and it has the same shaped jacket.

With the waistcoat, you can just see a little bit of braid peeping out on the left (I thought it was a watch chain first) and there are a couple of different mess waistcoats with the braid the same shape in that position and the same fastening on the front, though not with the edgings. And another photo of an army mess jacket does have the edgings.

A photograph of Sir John Monash, a young adult, is dressed almost identically except he has different sleeve embellishments - but the collar and braid on the shoulders look the same. A lot of the uniforms have that same twisted pattern on the cuff in one form or another - I suppose those extra bits on your fellows denote a particular regiment.

Come to think of it! he has the same mustache as John Monash in another photo I just spotted - 1896. But I don't think it is him.

ChristineR :)

[ChristineR]

Thanks Karen for letting me know how you are getting on with it. Sometimes the old photos can make them look older.

If you go to the Picture Australia website, use the keywords 'John Monash dress' the photo I was talking about will come up among others, he isn't wearing a hat. The uniform has so many similar details - especially the little tabs on the collar.

http://www.pictureaustralia.org/

cheers
Christine

[KarenT]

I found it... yes, and he has the same wide stripe on the pants leg. They would have looked rather 'flash' in their day with all that gold on red.
This is such a find, thank goodness it didn't get thrown away.