sounds like "Nees Furgun"

[davidyoung]

I am trying to trace my gr gr grandmother to Ireland. I have very little information. Her name was Margaret Norwood. She was born in 1845 and my first record is in Ontario Canada in 1868 when she is married and has her first child.

Various US census forms list her as being born in "Ireland," until the 1930 census says "Northern Ireland."

In the 1920 census, the enumerator wrote "Neesfergan" after crossing out "Ireland"

I cannot find a town by that spelling via Google. It occurs to me that the enumerator would have written down what he heard (rather than what was being said), so here's my (very strange) question:

Can anyone think of a town or village or region in northern Ireland that sounds like "Nees Furgun"

thanks

[Jan1954]

Blimey! http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee187/Jan_07/head_scratch-1.gif

Well, there are only 6 counties in Northern Ireland:
Antrim
Armagh
Down
Fermanagh
Londonderry
Tyrone

So, I was wondering if the enumerator was copying bad handwriting of whomever completed the form and it said North Fermanagh.

Just a suggestion...

[Jan1954]

David,

If the above idea sounds a bit shonky, take a wander through the pages here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_in_Northern_Ireland

Good luck,

[KateJones]

Could the Nees part be Ennis - Irish "island"? I've tried Ennis Fergan on Google with no luck, but I wonder if someone was saying that they came from Ennis whatever, it might have been misheard as Nees.
Regards
KJ

[davidyoung]

Thanks - my problem is that an Americn English-speaking person wrote down what an Irish-Englsih [pardon] person said. It sounded to the American that she said "Neees [like niece] ferugun"

Is Ennis pronounced en neees?

Thanks for the suggestion of the place names. Again, my problem is that I pronounce those names in "grino" English rather than Celtic English.

Dave

[JacquiA]

Hi

Try playing with this site

www.seanruad.com/ might help.

jacqui

[MarkJ]

Again, my problem is that I pronounce those names in "grino" English rather than Celtic English.

Dave

Argh! You can't say that Dave ;) English and Celtic are two different things. It is like French and German. You probably meant British - which is OK.
It is made more complex because there are two distinct forms of Celtic languages in the UK. The one spoken by some of us on the board is what is known as Brythonic Celtic - used by the Welsh, Cornish and Bretons.
Not sure if we have any speakers of the Goidelic form of Celtic language on the forum. Ennis in Cornish is pronounced as you would imagine, like tennis without the T.

For anyone interested, there are four distinct Celtic languages, of which the two I mentioned are found in Britain.There are some common (or nearly so) words between the two forms in the UK, such as the word for lake (lough in Irish, loch in Scots, logh in Cornish etc) but there are some huge differences. I can understand much of what a person who speaks Breton says for example, somewhat less of a Welsh person (but quite a lot) but little of the Irish language.

And here endeth todays Language course ;)

Apologies for my little ramble!

Mark

Edit: There is Lough Neagh in the north of Ireland, near Belfast. Also nearby is Lurgan, so wondering if he said Neagh, Lurgan? Or "near Lurgan"?

[get2BJ]

In the 1920 census, the enumerator wrote "Neesfergan" after crossing out "Ireland".....
Can anyone think of a town or village or region in northern Ireland that sounds like "Nees Furgun"

thanks
Are you able to post an image of the actual document you have found this wording on so that we can give you a fresh take on what it may say or mean? You will need to put it on Photobucket or something similar first then link the URL to your post. If you have any problems just shout and one of us will be able to help.

Brenda

[KateJones]

For anyone interested, there are four distinct Celtic languages, of which the two I mentioned are found in Britain.
Mark


OK, so I'm alright with Goidelic (Scottish Celtic, Irish Celtic, Manx) and Brythonic (Welsh, Breton, Cornish) - but which other Celtic languages are there?

davidyoung - I know that you have said Northern Ireland, however, there is an Ennis in County Clare with a place called Feaghquin nearby (a few km to the east). I have no expertise in pronouncing Feaghquin, but I would expect it to be fairly near to "Fergun".

Good idea about looking at the original Brenda.

Best Regards
KJ

[MarkJ]

OK, so I'm alright with Goidelic (Scottish Celtic, Irish Celtic, Manx) and Brythonic (Welsh, Breton, Cornish) - but which other Celtic languages are there?


Theoretically, there were Gaulish and Celtiberian as well. Those two were spoken in parts of Europe, but are now extinct. What they were like, I have no idea.
Only the Brythonic and Goidelic languages still exist and are spoken to my knowledge, but there could be an odd speaker of the others I suppose somewhere!

Mark

[davidyoung]

Are you able to post an image of the actual document you have found this wording on so that we can give you a fresh take on what it may say or mean? You will need to put it on Photobucket or something similar first then link the URL to your post. If you have any problems just shout and one of us will be able to help. Brenda

Wednesday (my time) I will try to post a jpeg scan of the census sheet. I need to learn how to use a photohosting site.

Thanks to all for the lanuage lessons.

By the time "nees fergun" was uttered in 1920, the Irish lass had been in English-speaking Ontario Canada for 20 years and then in American English speaking Detroit Michigan for 30 years, so I have no idea what accent might have been present!

Dave

[davidyoung]

My apologies if this is a double posting.

Here is a link to the scan of the census page. The person is at line 13: Margaret Young and the column is "birthplae of the person"

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn282/dny47/Detroit_1920.jpg

Thanks again for everyone who is trying to solve this puzzle. You will probably need an image viewing application to magnify it once you downlaod it. If I did something wrong, please email me dny at mac dot com

Thanks
Dave

[KateJones]

Theoretically, there were Gaulish and Celtiberian as well.
Mark

Of course! I was thrown by the use of 'are' in your previous quote, I was thinking in the present day - these were eliminated by the might of Latin. I'd be interested to know if they left any traces on French, Spanish or Catalan - perhaps in place names - anyone know? Who knows what might have happened in Britain if the Romans had not left? Perhaps we'd all be speaking a relative of the other Romance languages - what would it be called - British?
KJ

[davidyoung]

Who knows what might have happened in Britain if the Romans had not left? Perhaps we'd all be speaking a relative of the other Romance languages - what would it be called - British?
KJ

FWIW, my wife says that English IS a Romance Language, when I speak it properly . . . .

[get2BJ]

Hi Dave,

I looked at your image and as you say it's difficult to read in its present format. Would you be able to rescan just the relevant part of the image at the best resolution you can, resize so that it's bigger and download that to Photobucket?

I've tried a few different ways of enlarging it/zooming in etc, but the quality gets poorer the bigger you try to make the image. Sorry to have to ask you to do it again but I'm itching to get to the bottom of this problem!;)
Brenda

[davidyoung]

Hi Dave,

I looked at your image and as you say it's difficult to read in its present format. Would you be able to rescan just the relevant part of the image at the best resolution you can, resize so that it's bigger and download that to Photobucket?
Brenda

Brenda, I appreciate your willingness to help. If you contact me at dny at mac dot com, I will email the image to you directly.

[arthurk]

I haven't been able to view the image any bigger than at Photobucket, but my impression is that, like, most other entries on the page, it says Michigan.

Arthur

[davidyoung]

t my impression is that, like, most other entries on the page, it says Michigan.Arthur

My cousin thinks tht it says Michigan too, but the first letter is not the same as the "M" in the Michigans on the rest of the page. It has one "hump" and that is why I interpret it to be an "N" - thanks for your help!

Also, I know from census entries dateing from 1880 that she claimed Ireland has her place of birth.

[Mutley]

This is the best I can do,
Sorry it don't help much.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r297/MutleyBG/Detroit_1920.jpg

[Sue Mackay]

I have access to the American census returns on Ancestry, where I can blow it up to 200%, and I have to say it looks like Michigan to me as well. The US enumerators never wrote exact place names for overseas countries - just Ireland, England etc. It could just be an enumerator error!

[Lilly]

:confused:Guess the first could be your answer.;)

Meenafergus Co Tyrone.|wave|
Curraigfergus Antrum
Drumfergus Armagh
Tirfergus Co Down

[davidyoung]

It's been quite some doing, but I finally located Margaret's death certificate. Her son reported that her birthplace was Belfast, which is consistent with earlier reports that it was "Ireland" and "North ireland." After staring at the census sheet, I ultimately became convinced that the entry in question was indeed "Michigan."

Thanks for everyone's help!