Yeoman Warden - Tower of London

[Pandad]

The military is not an area I have been involved in during my hunting sessions. So I though, when in doubt - ask the forum experts.

Just discovered my 3 x great grandfather, John WINTERBOTTOM b.1795 was a Yeoman Warder at The Tower of London. He is recorded in the 1841 census aged 46, along with his wife Winifred aged 41 and daughter Sarah aged 3. These are the actual ages recorded in the census. Can't find any of them in the 1851, but picked the wife and daughter up again in the 1861, where the wife is recorded as a widow.

Googled 'Yeoman Warden' and from what I have read they are steeped in history and appear to be a bit special, and required long military service as a non-commission officer to be able to attain this post.

Would very much appreciate any information on Yeoman Wardens or pointers where I could discover more about this individuals military career.

Rod

[Geoffers]

From information that you have on him, are any of these your John WINTERBOTTOM (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=john+winterbottom&txtfirstdate=&txtlastdate=&txtrestriction=wo&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=27&image1.y=17)?

If one of them is, you can order the document from TNA.

[Pandad]

Thanks Geoffers. I had look at those in TNA but can't yet pin any down because I don't know his birth place.

I know he died sometime between the 1841 and 1861, but don't when or where.

[Geoffers]

Of the six hits, numbers 5 and 6 can be discarded because of discharge date

Number 4 was 48 in 1820 and so too old
Number 3 was 44 in 1823 and so too old
Number 2 was 43 in 1835 and so probably too old

Number 1 was discharged in 1839 aged 43 - by 1841 he would be 45/46

Whether you want to outlay money on ordering a copy is obviously your choice; but it is at least a starting point.

I have an odd recollection of Yeoman coming under the Lord Chancellor's Department, you should find records at TNA, but I've never had to use them so cannot help there.

[Mutley]

I think this is him
Class: HO107; Piece: 1498; Folio: 177; Page: 9;

1851 England Census
Name: John Winter Bottum
Age: 56
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1795
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Winifred
Gender: Male
Where born: Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: St Pancras
Town: Kentish Town
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Kentish Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 1e
Household schedule number: 21

Household Members: Name Age
Hammon Bottum 21
John Winter Bottum 56
Sophia W Bottum 2
Winifred Bottum 51
John Taylon 14
May Vallance 14

[Mutley]

A possible death registration
England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1983

John Winterbourne
Year of Registration: 1855
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Islington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 133

[Pandad]

|hug||hug||hug||hug|

You are worth it Mutley. Thank you very much. It's him alright.

Rod

[Geoffers]

I think this is him
1851 England Census
Name: John Winter Bottum
Where born: Yorkshire, England

Which tends to confirm the idea that this record at TNA (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-3877355&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CJOHN%2CWINTERBOTTOM&accessmethod=0)is for your chap

[Pandad]

Thanks for the link Geoffers. But looking at it the discharge age is wrong and the 'covering dates' also appear to be wrong.

My John WINTERBOTTOM was a 46-year-old Yeoman Warden in the 1841 census, and the 1851 records him with an occupation of 'Warden Tower London' aged 56.

From the 1851 I read he is still in the same occupation, but I could be wrong, because he is living outside the Tower. Even if you discount the 1851 data, my John was still serving at the age of 46, in 1841, when your John was discharged at age 43 between 'covering dates' of 1813 to 1839.

So at the moment your John has to be discounted.

My John had a son - Thomas WINTERBOTTOM

Born 1819 in Middlesex
1841 census - Private - Royal Horse Guards - in Hyde Park Cavalary Barracks.
1851 census - Musican - in Kentish Town.
1861 census - Royal Marine Band Master - in East Stonehouse, Plymouth.
Died 1869 in Royal Military Hospital, East Stonehouse, Plymouth.

I can't find his military record either?

Any clues would be very much appreciated and most welcome.

Rod

[Geoffers]

From the 1851 I read he is still in the same occupation, but I could be wrong, because he is living outside the Tower. Even if you discount the 1851 data, my John was still serving at the age of 46, in 1841, when your John was discharged at age 43 between 'covering dates' of 1813 to 1839. So at the moment your John has to be discounted.


Sorry, you've lost me.

TNA shows that a John WINTERBOTTOM was discharged from the 1st Foot Guards in 1839, at that time he was shown as 43.

Two years later (No longer in the army) he is shown in the 1841 census as a Yeoman Warder aged 46 and quite frankly, a year out in age is not that bad.

It looks like a possible match to me - especially considering the census return. In order to become a Yeoman warder he would have had to serve in the army and the TNA has army records for the period individually indexed.

His army service record WO97/11/112 does not include his service as a Yeoman warder.

Sorry if I'm being thick, but I don't see why this wouldn't be your chap. But then it's your research, if you don't think it's him, please ignore the suggestion.

[Peter Goodey]

I'm wondering if Rod believes that Yeoman Warder was an army posting rather than a retirement job?

[Mutley]

After following this thread through, I agree with Geoffers. It has surely got to be:JOHN WINTERBOTTOM Born SADDLEWORTH, Yorkshire Served in 1st Life Guards Discharged aged 43 1813-1839

I believe that Yeoman of the Guard were the soldiers and Yeoman Warders were old soldiers, different occupations set up in 1509 by Henry VIII.


quote:
Originally Warderships were purchased at a price of 250 Guineas. To retire and sell the Wardership was obviously desired but if a Warder died before retirement the Constable of the Tower could sell the vacancy and retain the money, instead of it going to the deceased Warder family.

This possibly gave rise to the Yeoman Warders Toast.
These tankers are filled with Port from the large bowl dated 1725. The Chief Yeoman Warder proposes the toast after the Swearing in of a new Yeoman Warder. All present Yeoman Warders respond - May you never die a Yeoman Warder
Although the purchasing of Warderships was discontinued in 1826 by the Constable of the Tower, the famous Duke of Wellington. He decreed that None but deserving, gallant and meritorious discharged Sergeants of the Army be appointed Warders
Eligibility now extends to Warrant Officers and equivalent ranks in the Royal Air Force and the Royal Marines.
The ancient toast however remains.

My fingers are itching to hit the download button on the TNA Site:D

[Pandad]

I'm wondering if Rod believes that Yeoman Warder was an army posting rather than a retirement job?

You have it in one, that was the way I was thinking. As usual, blissfully unaware of the military way of life in this era. I did not know it was a ‘retirement job’ out-with the military.

I apoligise to you all for the misunderstanding, and will now go away and purchase the required record. Then I will post the details for all see.

Well, that is something I have learnt today, am I am not too old for that :D

Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways |bowdown|

[Mutley]

How exciting, Can't wait :D:D

[Pandad]

My fingers are itching to hit the download button on the TNA Site:D

I have done that Mutley, and I am now waiting for my 'estimate for document copying'. That can take up to 10 days, and I am basically away from Mon 24 Mar for two weeks.

[Mutley]

Oh what a bummer! I thought it was like the medal cards, you paid your money and down loaded directly.

Well, everything comes eventually, in this hobby we have to learn patience.

If it's your holiday you are away on, have a good time and it will be something to look forward to on your return. ;)

[Pandad]

Just to keep you all in the picture I located John's will last night on TNA and downloaded it. Currently in the process of trying to dechiper the content to prove I have the right will.

Here are the clues that I have gleamed so far from the will.

It was written on 28 Oct 1855 and proved 7 Dec 1855 by Winifred WINTERBOTTOM, who was listed in 1841 and 1851 as wife and from 1861 onwards as widow. So that seems to fit.

The will also names one William MIDWINTER, and this ties in with this marriage from Pallot's Marriage Index for England 1780 - 1837 which I though was a good candidate.

John WINTERBOTTOM & Winefred MIDWINTER 1817 Kensington, which is 2 years before birth of Thomas the eldest son (I think?)

John mentions 'Fencing Master' in his will and in the 1861 his son is recorded as a 'Fencing and Gymnastics Master' and a ‘Fencing Master’ in the 1871.

With those clues would say I have the right will?

I will post my will transcript - if you want me to - when it is done.

Rod

[Geoffers]

Just to keep you all in the picture I located John's will last night on TNA and downloaded it. Currently in the process of trying to dechiper the content to prove I have the right will.

Good luck, if you get stuck reading any of it do ask for help. I'm happy to have a browse to see what can be made of it.

[Pandad]

Good luck, if you get stuck reading any of it do ask for help. I'm happy to have a browse to see what can be made of it.

That would be very much appreciated Geoffers. If you PM me your e-mail I will forward the will and my word document interpertation so far.

[Geoffers]

That would be very much appreciated Geoffers. If you PM me your e-mail I will forward the will and my word document interpertation so far.

You now have my e-maill address, let me have what you've got and I'll put the kettle on - I like to nourish the brain with a cuppa whilst browsing old documents.

[Geoffers]

Transcription of will sent to Pandad

[Pandad]

Been away for a week and on return had received the birth certificate for Sarah WINTERBOTTOM. I had only ordered the certificate to confirm Sarah's mother's maiden name. However, that had already been established when I uncovered John WINTERBOTTOM's will. So I thought the certificate would be a waste of time. How mistaken we can be!

The birth certificate told me nothing new, apart from the recorded occupation for John, the father. His occupation is "Regimental Corporal Major - 1st Life Guards", which was a new one to me, so I Googled it, and this is what it turned up.

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyuniforms/britishcavalry/1stlifeguards1832.htm

When I read this wording under the picture "yet the painting is titled Regimental Corporal-Major John Winterbottom", I was gobsmacked, apparently, the painting is of my 3rd Great Grandfather, and another forum members 4th Great Grandfather, John WINTERBOTTOM.

I do believe a few more questions about this chap are required.

[Mutley]

How fantastic and what a thrill.
You must not only be delighted with that find but very proud too.

[Pandad]

How fantastic and what a thrill.
You must not only be delighted with that find but very proud too.

Got it in one Mutley. I am chuffed to bits :D

[Geoffers]

I do believe a few more questions about this chap are required.


Like, how did he keep that hat on when it was windy?!?!?

Is the original in the Guards museum?

[Pandad]

Like, how did he keep that hat on when it was windy?!?!?

Is the original in the Guards museum?

I have just e-mailed the site owner that provided the link. Hopefully he will provide more details, or at least leads, about the picture, and possibly other information as well.

[yorkshirecath]

Bloomin heck!
Have just read this thread and am so chuffed for you. What a find!
Will be reading avidly for the next instalment in your finds :D

Cath x