Could someone lookup a passage into the USA, please

[Alan Welsford]

My grandmother's oldest brother emigrated with his wife to the USA, where he then had his family.

I do not know exactly when this was, but it can't be before their marriage in the UK in late 1908. My mum thinks 1909 is likely, but that's not proven. It is undoubtedly before WW1, (which started in 1914 for some of us :o).

He was

Herbert George HURRELL (born 28th Jun 1884, Holt, Norfolk, UK)
and would have been accompanied by his wife
Elizabeth ("Libby") HURRELL (nee PURLING) (born abt 1882, Norfolk, UK ?)

He may well have entered the USA via Canada, as he is believed to have sailed with my grandmother's uncle, (Charles HOWARD), and family who settled in Canada.

I would be grateful if anyone with access to the relevant data can find when Herbert & Elizabeth HURRELL entered the USA, and where they had come from.

Ultimately he settled in Ohio, but the 1920 US census has in in Wentworth, Lake County, South Dakota, and the 1930 in Cadillac City, Wexford, Michigan. He clearly moved around, (he was a church minister).

Many thanks in advance if anyone can find him.

Alan

[bumblebee]

Hi Alan

Just thought I would mention this one although it is not him going out to the USA, but I am wondering if he travelled back home from time to time. (haven't got access to A..... lists but I can see him on there)

Herbert HURRELL, departing on the 21 November 1938 from Southampton, to New York USA, Occupation Clergyman, date of birth 1884. Citizen of USA, last address in the United Kingdom - 27 Salisbury Road, E 7

Bumblebee.

[Alan Welsford]

Many thanks, Bumblebee.

Yes, I did see that record when (I think) A******y had one of it's "view everything free for a few days offers".

I asked my mum about this, and she reckoned he came home only the once, (and alone).

I have an image of the page relating to his arrival in the US, and the fact that his US passport was newly issued earlier that year would seem to confirm he didn't leave the States much.

Strangely, though, what I have lists his US address, but does not include a UK address he came from. (I guess I'm looking at arrival information, and you at departures ?)

I've just given my mum a bell to confirm that the London E7 address was where she and her parents were living in 1938. She is confident it's not quite correct - it should have been 26 Salisbury Road E7 - a Baptist chapel manse, as her father was also a Baptist minister.

Thanks for the details!

Alan

[Alan Welsford]

Actually it looks like what I'm after may be covered by a collection on A******y called...

Border Crossings: From Canada to US 1895 to 1956

There appear to be 2 records on there one for a Herbert HURRELL and the other a Herbert G HURRELL, both arriving at Niagara Falls, New York, USA.

Also possibly matching ones foe Elizabeth HURRELL.

My subscription doesn't extend to this collection - can anyone else help, please ?

[Peter_uk_can]

Does this fit ? Elizabeth is with him. I can e-mail you a jpg of the original if you pm me

Canada to U.S., 1895-1956 Border Crossings: From Canada to U.S., 1895-1956
Name: Herbert G Hurrell
Arrival Date: May 1910
Age: 26
Birth Date: abt 1884
Birth Country: England
Gender: Male
Race/Nationality: English

Port of Arrival: Niagara Falls, New York, USA

He signed up in the US Army as a Minister

They are in the 1920 Census of South Dakota, do you want jpg of that too ?

[Geoffers]

Name: Herbert G Hurrell
Arrival Date: May 1910
Age: 26
He signed up in the US Army as a Minister

In which I case, I wonder if the following passage might be him and his wife, with a couple of transcription errors:

12 Feb 1909
Embark - Liverpool
Destination - St.John Nb, Canada
Ship - Empress of Britain, Canadian Pacific Line

Ticket numbers 13304 + 5
Mr H E HURRELL - aged 30, Minister
Mrs HURRELL - aged 26

His second initial is one of those squiggly E's that looks like a backward 3 and I have previously encountered the capital G being mistaken in this way.

The age is 3 years out, but that is not so great a discrepancy.

[Alan Welsford]

Peter,

That's fantastic, & definitely him.

It's possibly a year later than I was expecting, but as he travelled via Canada with his uncle's family, he may well have spent a year or so in Canada before moving on to the States.

I'd be grateful for the image - I'll PM you an email address.

I have the 1920 US Census, also the 1930, by which time he & Elizabeth have had children, but Elizabeth has sadly died and he is remarried to an American called Dora, (maiden name not known).

I assume you have looked at his US WW1 Draft card ? It seems to have only been completed a couple of months before hostilities ended.

I must investiagate this family further. His son, also born a Herbert George, but always known just as George, apparently flew fighter planes in WW2, and worked on rocket engine development for NASA. I've seen indexes for what may well be his time on ships in WW2. One for later!

Thanks again

Alan

[Alan Welsford]

In which I case, I wonder if the following passage might be him and his wife, with a couple of transcription errors:

12 Feb 1909
Embark - Liverpool
Destination - St.John Nb, Canada
Ship - Empress of Britain, Canadian Pacific Line

Ticket numbers 13304 + 5
Mr H E HURRELL - aged 30, Minister
Mrs HURRELL - aged 26

His second initial is one of those squiggly E's that looks like a backward 3 and I have previously encountered the capital G being mistaken in this way.

The age is 3 years out, but that is not so great a discrepancy.

Geoffers,

Despite the age discrepancy, I'm sure this is him. I believe my mum has a postcard of the Empress of Britain, as the ship he sailed on. (I believe posted before departure, but with postmark date not readable)

What would clinch it is if at least the following were on the same voyage.

Charles J HOWARD (b 1865 Skeyton, Norfolk)
Susan or Susannah HOWARD (b abt 1868 Itteringham, Norfolk)
Alice C HOWARD (b abt 1888, Skeyton, Norfolk)
Herbert G HOWARD (1891)
Ethel M HOWARD (abt 1893)
Charles J HOWARD (abt 1896)
Albert A HOWARD (abt 1899) Last 4 all born Norwich, Norfolk.

I would be very interested if they are there in children travelling with them born between 1901 and 1909, as I don't have details.

This by the way (Charles J senior) is brother to the George S you tracked to the Rosary cemetery for me, and George's wife Elizabeth, buried with him is sister to Charles' wife Susan(nah).

I've used the magic "Norfolk" password lots of times, so I'm hoping you can find my Charles' family!

Alan

[Geoffers]

I've used the magic "Norfolk" password lots of times, so I'm hoping you can find my Charles' family!

Fair enough bor - bear with me, I'm trying to cook dinner as well as look this up, back shortly..........

Not having a lot of luck at the moment- are you sure they didn't stowaway?

I'll try working through the entire 1909 passenger list for the Empress, in case they have not been indexed......I'm just checking the pages, I may be sometime........

[Geoffers]

.........Well, I've just been through every sailing of the Empress of Britain in 1909 that I could locate - no trace of any unindexed HOWARDs, or anything that looks like a HOWARD that has been mis-spelt.

Sorry

[Alan Welsford]

.........Well, I've just been through every sailing of the Empress of Britain in 1909 that I could locate - no trace of any unindexed HOWARDs, or anything that looks like a HOWARD that has been mis-spelt.

Sorry
Well thanks indeed for trying!

Another family story that's not quite on the mark, it seems.

If Herbert HURRELL was travelling to Canada in 1909, and his uncle and family (the HOWARDs) were not on the same voyage, I can only assume they were already installed in Canada before then.

I can't see why Herbert would have passed through, and spent a year in, Canada otherwise.

At least I can question one "fact" I've been supplied!

Alan

[Alan Welsford]

To whichever kind person was trying to PM me, I saw something pop up on the screen, but my inbox was full.

I've deleted some items, so could you please try again.

Thanks

[Peter_uk_can]

Didn't Elizabeth Hurrell reach St Johns Dec 1908. ?

[Alan Welsford]

Didn't Elizabeth Hurrell reach St Johns Dec 1908. ?
Peter,

Thanks for e-mail the materials all received safely.

I'm confused now, as Geoffers seems to have Elizabeth on the Empress of Britain UK to Canada in Feb 1909.

Whereas that card index you have sent by e-mail, which I take to be her crossing from Canada to the US in 1910, does seem to have on it a date in Dec 1908 for arriving in Canada on the Emp of Britain. (I can read what's filled in, but am struggling with the small printed captions to each 'box').

It seems unlikely to me that 2 Elizabeth HURRELLs, of the right age, and from Norwich arrived in Canada on the same ship, only 2 months apart.

I think what's on that index card may be more likely to be wrong than a record of the passage ?

The draft card for Herbert HURRELL is what I have.

The enlisting of Charles J HOWARD into the Canadian territorial force I have seen before. It does seem to be Charles J HOWARD son of Charles J HOWARD, (just to confuse!), as both the the date and place of birth seem right. I don't have a birth certificate to prove it absolutely. I'll ask my mum, (if she is not too confused), if Bloomfield, Ont. rings any bells, (not that she was alive when those papers were signed!).

[Edited to say my mum knows nothing of the family being in Bloomfield, Ont, butm considering the date, why should she.]

Alan

[Geoffers]

I'm confused now, as Geoffers seems to have Elizabeth on the Empress of Britain UK to Canada in Feb 1909.

I've just checked and there are no matches for departure in 1908 - although of course, they may have intended to leave in Dec and were delayed for whatever reason? - All the passenger lists I have seen so far have entries which are crossed out, indicating that someone didn't sail.


It seems unlikely to me that 2 Elizabeth HURRELLs, of the right age, and from Norwich arrived in Canada on the same ship, only 2 months apart.

To be fair, the passenger list I found doesn't give an address, so we don't know for certain that the couple I found were from Norwich - although there are a lot of similarities to the information you provided, plus your later mention of the card from the Empress.


I think what's on that index card may be more likely to be wrong than a record of the passage ?

I would assume that the Captain got the date of sailing correct - but ask me in 18 months when I did something fairly important, and I'd probably get it wrong; but maybe that's just me and dates?

[Alan Welsford]

To be fair, the passenger list I found doesn't give an address, so we don't know for certain that the couple I found were from Norwich - although there are a lot of similarities to the information you provided, plus your later mention of the card from the Empress.

Fair comment. I suspect however that the number of H HURRELLs who were church ministers at that time could be counted on the thumbs of one hand. ;)


I would assume that the Captain got the date of sailing correct - but ask me in 18 months when I did something fairly important, and I'd probably get it wrong; but maybe that's just me and dates?

Yes. my thoughts exactly.
Obviously if the matching record for Herbert could be found, it would confirm this is my Elizabeth. The record for passing into the States does say she was born Norwich.

Perhaps on the trip to Canada the captain took the scenic route, and they left in December, but didn't arrive until Feb. :)

But seriously I'll try and sight the postcard he sent before departure, that has a picture of the ship on, and see if I can make more sense of the (poor) postmark, now I have some clues.

[Peter_uk_can]

Alan. I have e-mailed you a copy of the border crossing for Herbert Hurrell.

Both he and Elizabeth crossed together and were met by a Mr Smith from the Church. The arrival date for the Empress of Brittain remains the same, but this document was filled out some 2 years later than their arrival, so maybe they guessed a little, or maybe they "needed" to put it into 1908.

They missed the Canadian census of course. Note that the "Alchemy.com" transcript has him born in "Notts" so this throws the search out, but not enough to fool those who are wise to their failings.... still better than no records anywhere...

What I don't know for certain is if the Empress of Britain sailed to St Johns, Newfoundland, or Saint Johns, Nova Scotia.

Phonetics would sound the same and it appears to be written St....

Let me know if you think I can be of any further help.

I won't be at my desk for a while, so if you e-mail, please use the gmail that I c,c'd.

Post Script. Brittain is the border folks spelling not mine....

Peter

[Alan Welsford]

Very many thanks.

Clearly him.

Crossing with Elizabeth.
Minister.
Father George.
"Norwich" isn't strictly accurate - should be one of the villages in the Loddon area.
Also if he was genuinely only 5' 9", then much of the rest of his family must have been very short, as he towers over most of them in photos before he left.

Brilliant, anyway - I now know for definite when they went to the US, and how long in Canada. I don't know if his original intention was to settle in Canada - I'm guessing it was, but that something subsequently attracted him to the US. It's possible his younger son is still living - I'm not sure.

Alan

[Geoffers]

Charles J HOWARD (b 1865 Skeyton, Norfolk)
Susan or Susannah HOWARD (b abt 1868 Itteringham, Norfolk)
Alice C HOWARD (b abt 1888, Skeyton, Norfolk)
Herbert G HOWARD (1891)
Ethel M HOWARD (abt 1893)
Charles J HOWARD (abt 1896)
Albert A HOWARD (abt 1899) Last 4 all born Norwich, Norfolk.

Alan. I've just been looking through the Passenger lists again for the above, the best matches follow. I'm not convinced, but you may have additional information which either definitely connects them - or definitely disproves any connection, so for what its worth:

4 Oct 1906 Liverpool to Quebec
Empress of Britain
Mrs S HOWARD, aged 43
Miss HOWARD, aged 18
(above travelled together)

5 Sep 1912 Liverpool to Quebec
Empress of Britain
Chas HOWARD, aged 45, Butcher

Of course, your Howards may have popped over the Channel and picked up passage on a French boat...........and there is the slightly less probable:

Howard minor - "Dad, dad how much further?"
Howard major - "Shut up and keep swimming."

Going back to the Rosary Cemetery, there are a load of child burials in the one plot, they may include any you are looking for post-1901 - no adults with them:

L3/1844
Charles HOWARD. d 9 Dec 1897, aged 5
Lily Ruth HOWARD, d 5 Aug 1899, aged 10m
Grace Jane HOWARD, d 15 Aug 1904, 4 1/2m
Charles Edward HOWARD, d 19 Sep 1906, aged 11m
Robert Martins HOWARD, d 19 Sep 1906, aged 10m
Alice Shredy HOWARD, d 4 Dec 1901, aged 10m
Alice Shredy HOWARD, d 12 Feb 1908, aged 10m
Charles William HOWARD, d 26 Dec 1909, aged 1m

Also, as at least two of your lot had the name Charles J, I wondered if this one could be connected?

O1 & 2/173
Charles James HOWARD, d 15 Feb 1940, aged 73
His wife Ann, d 7 Dec 1955, aged 89
Florence Arthurton dtr of Margaret & Thomas HOWARD, d 22 Apr 1926, aged 6 1/2
Thomas Charles HOWARD, d 8 Feb 1970, aged 80
his wife Margaret Alice HOWARD, d 30 Sep 1971, aged 80

[Alan Welsford]

Geoffers,

Many thanks for keeping looking!

I can't see any obvious connections here, I'm, afraid.

If my Mrs Susannah HOWARD had travelled separately to Canada with a daughter she would have been 5 years younger than shown. (On the other hand the eldest daughter Alice would have been not far short of 18, so could have been "Miss HOWARD")

I'd have thought if they were all going to start life in a new country they would have gone together, (but you never know!).

There's also no connection I know of to butchers in this side of the family.

The family at the bottom of your list of burials can be clearly identified in Norwich St Clements in 1901 - Charles J here is a Fishmonger, and married to Ann. With them is Alice Sheedy HOWARD who is one of the burials in the child grave, so I'd assume they all associate in some way to that extended family.

My HOWARDs come from Tuttington, Norfolk, via Skeyton, and the families of my great grandmother's brothers George and Charles are the first I know of to be connected to Norwich. As Charles took his family to Canada, I'd really only expect anything in Norwich for George's (admittedly very large!) family. I doubt he had any close relationship to other Norwich based HOWARDs at this time.

I do appreciate your input though, as every so often another piece of the jigsaw falls into place.

Alan

[Peter_uk_can]

Alan. I see Charles J Howard and family in Norfolk in 1901 with Herbert Hurrell living with them. Have you found them later than that ? my brief looks into the US and Canada hasn't turned them up there yet.

Geoffers looks to have the Hurrell's journey to St Johns, I wonder why the difference in dates, albiet not much.

[Alan Welsford]

Peter,

No, I have no evidence of Charles HOWARD and family in the UK after 1901 census, but is my mum's belief they went to Canada about 1909. I believe there will prove to be post 1901 census children , UK born.

My mum was under the impression that Charles's nephew, Herbert HURRELL, who as you say was with them in 1901, travelled with his wife at the same time as the HOWARDs but that appears not to be the case.

Herbert and Elizabeth HURRELL could not have gone until after they married in the December quarter of 1908, but unfortunately I don't at the moment have a more precise date for that marriage. I doubt my mum knows, either.

I think the explanation of the difference in dates is as Geoffers has said. We have an actual date of the voyage of Herbert from UK to Canada, and the different date comes from what was reported when they went from Canada to the USA over a year later. I think the date would not have been checked, and that they misreported it for whatever reason, (probably a genuine error).

I know there's a postcard that Herbert posted before his departure. I know it doesn't say much, and the postmark was ambiguous. Now I have a date to compare to, I'd like to see it again. (My guess is my mum will have mislaid it ;))

I'll quiz her some more, anyway.

Alan

[Alan Welsford]

Now I've seen the Postcard that Herbert & Elizabeth (Libby) HURRELL sent to my grandparents immediately prior to their departure from Liverpool to Canada, I remember what was wrong with it. :o

It is indeed of the Empress of Britain (Canadian Pacific Line), but apparently my grandfather always collected stamps off things.

Hence no stamp, and not a full postmark.

It clearly said 'Liverpool' at the top and WD27 at the bottom, (whatever that was, I don't think it's part of the date).

Crucially, what I assume to be the year clearly says '09' (the rest of the date went with the stamp!).

So it seems highly likely that the records Geoffers found for a 1909 date are correct, and that the Dec 1908 date given when they moved on to the US was wrong.

Thanks for all your help - I think I can lay this aspect of Herbert's life to bed.

However conversation with my mother has revealed he had not 2, but 3 wives, (1 English & 2 American it seems). Don't you wish they would tell you everything. |banghead|

I still don't know when my HOWARDs went to Canada, of course.

Alan

[Peter_uk_can]

Alan. As yet, the Howards are remaining invisible, even with various spellings and combination of name.


On the stamp, or rather the missing stamp I can report that it was a 1/2p Green, (there is a little bit left top left) and in 1909 it was the rate for inland postcards. The stamp is Liverpool Western District, which covered the docks area and was stamped by stamp canceller number 17.

Just a little more colour (literally)for your history.

[Alan Welsford]

Errm.

Looks like I couldn't even transcribe part of a postmark correctly. :o

As you say, clearly WD17, (not WD27, as I garbled it).

So everything points to my HURRELLs sailing to Canada in early 1909.

Thanks for your continued efforts to find the passage of Charles J HOWARD, his wife Susan(nah), & Family.

Other than he was still in Norwich for the 1901 census, and would almost certainly have arrived in Canada no later than the HURRELLS, I can only guess when in that 8 year "window" they might have sailed.

By the way, I've looked again at the information you sent on a Charles James HOWARD enlisting for WW1 in Canada. I don't now think he is mine. The father is Charles James HOWARD (born 1865), but the evidence from GRO indexes is that his son was Charles John HOWARD (born early 1896, or possibly late 1895). So the age matches but the second forename doesn't seem to.

Incidentally Charles James' father, (yet another Charles), undoubtedly never saw his son, as he died at 25 of Tuberculosis, shortly before his birth. (My shortest lived ancestor that I'm aware of).

Alan