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View Full Version : Help I get Probate instead of Wills



renwick
01-03-2008, 7:09 PM
I have sent for a copy of wills of my ancestors but i end up with the probate instead which does not the information in that much detail. A friend actually had a copy of his ancestors will, had received the probate but then was contacted by a relative and obtained a copy of his relatives which had much more informative but he is not sure how his relative got it.
Please can anyone tell me can I get the will rather than the probate and go about about it, as I thought and applied for a will both times and yet only had the probate. Or are wills destroyed after so long and only the probate obtainable. I have problems both on my own and my husbands side which the will would probably be able to clear.

ChrisKelly
01-03-2008, 7:24 PM
Start here:
National Archives (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/wills/?homepage=fr-wills)
:)

renwick
01-03-2008, 10:34 PM
Hi
Many thanks but I have tried that and it is where I applied for what I thought was a will but wa actually the probate.

Peter Goodey
02-03-2008, 9:42 AM
I think you had better be a bit more specific - names, dates, places, court, what you received, what you were expecting, etc because I'm afraid I don't understand precisely what the problem is.

renwick
02-03-2008, 10:36 AM
Hi Peter

I am sorry that I have not been specific enough but I am still trying to sort out the best way of tying things up and have tried to ask specific questions without rambling on too much. Below I have given the facts as I know them though I am not sure exactly what courts where involved as I cannot find exact information at the present time

I applied for the will of George Piffe from the National Archive site.

What I got back was a document that said the will was proved in London in July 1802 and had the basic facts of who the the money was to be distributed too. The will was from George Piffe a farmer in Down Hatherley Gloucestershire.

I have also got a probate some years ago from 1940's, which I believe I had to send to first from the original solicitors then to York for believing it was a copy of the original will in both cases they sent me only the probate, of a relative from West Hartlepool Durham refering to my great grandparents William Welch or Herridge again giving monetary value but not exact facts such as why they married in one name(being his mother's maiden name even though his birth was registered as his fathers family name) and had seveal children then changed their name back to his original name and had several more children in that name. I friend has shown me a probate document such as I have got and also a will he had obtained for his relative, and naturally there where far more facts and information on the will than the probate.

The probate does not give enough information for me to verify certain facts and I hope that the wills might give more information to clarify things such as how one person can have two names.

What I want to know is can I obtain copies of the original will if so where from, or is it only the probate that is actually kept on record.

ChrisKelly
02-03-2008, 11:48 AM
I'm no expert on wills, but when I've sent for a will from TNA I've got the will. Maybe you've been unlucky. You've probably read it already, but there are further explanations about exactly what's held here: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=168

It might be necessary to contact the original record office, which in your case would be Gloucestershire. If you search their database here (http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Search.aspx), there is a will for George Piff(e).
Good luck
:)

Peter Goodey
02-03-2008, 12:01 PM
I assume you're talking about PROB 11/1412 which is said to consist of three pages. PROB 11 is supposed to contain court copies of proved wills. I'd be rather surprised if there wasn't a will in the downloaded document.

Perhaps you could make the PDF available on a website somewhere and we could have a look at it and provide some comments for you.

Geoffers
02-03-2008, 1:47 PM
The documents sent by TNA often contain parts of more than one will. The end of one will - the note mentioning where and when Probate was granted may appear at the top of the first page which you have downloaded. This relates to the will before that of George PIFFE.

Scroll down until you find the name George PIFFE in the margin. This should be the start of his will - the one you want.

Wills typically commence with an introduction which reads something like.........

1. In the Name of God amen, the (date written out in full) 1801, This is the last will and testament of me George PIFFE farmer in Down Hatherley in the county of Gloucester........

2. This is the last Will and Testament of me George PIFFE of Down Hatherley in the County of Gloucester being weak of body but in perfect memory.............

3. I George PIFFE of the parish of Down Hatherley in the county of Gloucester farmer do make this my last will and testament in the manner following..........

After several beqeausts, the will being witnessed, you should at the foot of the will find details of where and when probate was granted. The word PROBATE might be written in large letters first, or THIS WILL WAS PROVED........and then details of where and to whom probate was granted.

As Peter mentioned, let us have the URL you were sent by TNA, to download the document and one of us will have a look - if you get stuck reading it, we can give a hand there too.

MythicalMarian
02-03-2008, 5:07 PM
Hi Peter

I applied for the will of George Piffe from the National Archive site.

What I got back was a document that said the will was proved in London in July 1802 and had the basic facts of who the the money was to be distributed too. The will was from George Piffe a farmer in Down Hatherley Gloucestershire.


It sounds very much like you have an Inventory here, rather than the will - which may not have survived. Is there a listing of goods too? I have several Inventories where the will hasn;t survived, and they amount to a list of goods and chattels plus a creditors' list.

Could this possibly be the case here?

Peter Goodey
02-03-2008, 5:30 PM
It sounds very much like you have an Inventory here

This will was proved in 1802 - a period when inventories are rare. PROB 11, the series that is available for download, contains court copies of proved wills.

Any inventories for this period will be elsewhere, probably in PROB 31.

renwick
03-03-2008, 4:53 PM
Many thanks for all the people who have responded, perhaps it was the will as I have found the bit mentioned where George's name is. as described by Geoffers. I had hoped to find the address and perhaps the wife's name, which should be Sarah, and also his son George's wife which should be Ann to try and tie it in, really needed the mention of a grandson George b 1802, which is where I can definitely trace my husbands ancestors too. However since I do not seem to be able to find an address or date when the will was written, I thought that perhaps not all the information was included.
I note from what I can read that the daughter's husband's names are included though I cannot read them that well at the moment. I believe somewhere was an example of how things where written and have been trying to find that to see if I can work somemore out.
Not sure how to give access to it as am not that good with technical things on the computer however have copied the order number and if anyone can decippher an address or wife's name for either George who wrote the will or the Son George mentioned 1st page 4 rows from the bottom right hand side, I would be very grateful


Sent: 23/2/2008 17:37:14
Order number: I/08/01210073Y
Images available until: 19/4/2008
Thank you for using The National Archives' digital image system DocumentsOnline. Please keep this email as a record of your order.


As for the one on Welch I seem to have probate and a short will naming people as the benefactors but the actual breakdown in figures on another sheet seems to list other people not the ones stated, all very mysterious, think i will have to give up on that as no-one still alive to ask.

Peter Goodey
03-03-2008, 5:37 PM
I'm afraid we need more than that. It's ages since I last used DocumentsOnline but wasn't there something that said "click here to see the will"? That's what we need.

Failing that you're welcome to email the will to me (a pdf file) and I'll make it available to everyone for a short while. The email in my profile works - note that it contains underscores, not spaces.

ChrisKelly
03-03-2008, 5:39 PM
It's not possible to access your order without knowing your email address and other security information, which is as it should be!
Any chance you can scan the will, upload it somewhere (eg Photobucket (http://photobucket.com)) and let us have a look?

Geoffers
03-03-2008, 5:48 PM
I have found the bit mentioned where George's name is. as described by Geoffers.

That's his will then


However since I do not seem to be able to find an address or date when the will was written, I thought that perhaps not all the information was included.

A full address is unusual for 1802

The date of the will be at its end, it will have something to the effect of it being

"signed, sealed (and) published (and declared) by the said George PIFFE as and for his last will and testament in the presence of us ............... and should finish with the date which the witnesses have signed it."


I note from what I can read that the daughter's husband's names are included though I cannot read them that well at the moment.

I'm happy to help transcribe it - if you can forward the link to Peter to post it.




Sent: 23/2/2008 17:37:14
Order number: I/08/01210073Y
Images available until: 19/4/2008
Thank you for using The National Archives' digital image system DocumentsOnline. Please keep this email as a record of your order.

It's the links below that part of the e-mail that are needed.

renwick
03-03-2008, 10:01 PM
Not sure if this will work but have got it all I think

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/DoLUserDownload/mpiff@hotmailcouk/prob/11/1412/0/9.pdf

this is the address when I have downloaded the document, have tried to copy and paste download now but will not paste, as I say I am not that good at the technical stuff with computers.

Would be grateful if I could find an address or name of wives etc as am desperate to tie this to my George Piffe b 1802 it states in Boddington in 1851 census but think that is where he was living then and know the family comes from farming and has ties with down Hatherley.

Once again many thanks I am really grateful.

Geoffers
03-03-2008, 10:02 PM
What I can make of it, the will reads as follows - I've added some punctuation to make it easier to read:

I George PIFFE
of the parish of Down Hatherley in the county of
Gloucester, farmer, do make this my last will and
testament in the manner following (That is to say), I give
devise and bequeath unto my sons John PIFFE and
Joseph PIFFE their heirs and assigns all that piece
of pasture or meadow ground called BOSLEY'S GROUND
situate and being in the said parish of Down Hatherley;
and also all that piece or parcel of meadow of pasture ground
now in my occupation situate and being in a certain
meadow or ground called GOOSE PLATT in the same parish
and also all my share of part of a certain wood or
piece of land covered with wood called HATHERLEY WOOD
together with a beast pasture thereto belonging
situate in a certain meadow called the GREAT LEAZE in the
parish of Down Hatherley aforesaid and all my estate and
interest therein; and also all that piece or parcel of
arable land containing by estimation one acre and now
in my occupation being a part of a certain piece
or length of land called LONG PIECE which is situate in
the said parish of Down Hatherley in a certain field
there called BLACKLAND FIELD to have and to hold the said piece
of ground [insert in superscript here - called Oxleys the said peice of ground] in GOOSE PLAT, share of the wood, beast pasture


continued.......

Geoffers
03-03-2008, 10:15 PM
piece or parcel of arable land called LONGPIECE and all
and singular other, the premises hereinbefore mentioned
with the appurtenances unto my said sons John PIFFE
and Joseph PIFFE their heirs and assigns forever as
Tenants in Common, but not as Joint Tenants. I also give
and bequeath unto my said son Joseph PIFFE the sum
of Forty Pounds over and above what he will be
entitled to out of the resid(ue???) of my personal estate
I give and bequeath unto my son George PIFFE the
sum of One Hundred and Twenty Pounds. I give and
bequeath unto my two sons Thomas PIFFE and
William PIFFE the sum of Twenty Pounds a piece
[end of page]

continued.......

Geoffers
03-03-2008, 10:32 PM
I give and bequeath unto my daughters Elizabeth
PRESTON, wife of James PRESTON of LANGFORD in the county
of Gloucester, farmer; Sarah JACKSON, wife of John
JACKSON of Twigworth, farmer and Mary HAMPTON
wife of Richard HAMPTON of Maisemore, Victualler the
[sum of] Sixty Pounds a piece. I give unto my daughter Ann LANE
wife of William LANE of Maisemore aforesaid, farmer,
the sum of Ten Pounds and I direct that the several
legacies by me before given be paid within twelve
months next after my decease. I also give and bequeath
unto my daughter Suannah REA, wife of Benjamin
REA of the city of Gloucester, baker the sum of Four
Pounds per annum to be paid her quarterly for her own
sole and separate use and not to be subject to the debts
or at the control or disposal of the said husband which
said sum of Four Pounds per annum I do will and direct
may be paid her as afroesaid until such time as my ex[ecut]ors
shall think it proper and prudent to pay her the sum
of Sixty Pounds in lieu thereof and I do hereby direct
that the receipt of my said daughter Susannah REA
shall be sufficient discharge to my executors for the
parmeny of her said legacy notwithstanding her (...ature?)
and in case she should die before my said executors shall
think proper to pay her the said legacy of Sixty Pounds

continued........

Geoffers
03-03-2008, 10:41 PM
then I give the same to such other of my children as
shall be then living equally to be divided between them
share and share alike; and it is my will that the said
sum of Four Pounds per annum shall cease to be paid
or payable at her decease. And I do hereby nominate
and appoint the said Joseph PIFFE and John PIFFE joint
executors and residuary legacies of this my said will
hereby revoking and making void all former and
other will, testaments or testimentary dispositions y
me at any time herebefore made. In witness whereof
I have to this my said will contained in one sheet of
paper set my hand and seal this THIRTIETH DAY of
APRIL, ONE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED and FOUR. George
PIFFE. Signed, sealed, published and declared by the
said George PIFFE as and for his last will and testament
in the presence of us who in his presence and at his request
and in the presence of each other have subscribed our names
as witnesses thereto, the words "Residuary Legacies" (.....?)
first inter..ned? Thos DEAR, the mark X of Hannah
MALPASS. Chas GRINNETT.

continued........

Geoffers
03-03-2008, 10:49 PM
The will was proved at London 30th July 1804 Joseph PIFFE and John PIFFE granted rights to administer the estate.

There are a couple of words in the will that I haven't be quite able to make out. I think it's just tired eyes and I'll probably be able to make more sense in the morning (when I'll check for typing errors). But at least you have an idea of what the will contains.

The will gives a lot of information, I don't think you should be too disappointed at its contents.

renwick
04-03-2008, 9:02 PM
Hi Geoffers
I really cannot thank you enough, I had managed to decipher some names and amounts but not all of them, A lot of the siblings I had found christenings of and could match them. It is interesting that George was the eldest son yet the farming side seems to have been left to the second and third sons. Also it was obviously made shortly before his death. I can also hopefully get a map of down hatherley and may be able to pinpoint where the land was. I really appreciate the time and effort you have taken. I was beginning to think that wills where proving too difficult as had not had any success with the first one I obtained from Welch side as seemed to be proved leaving money to certain people but the breakdown of figures left it to others. Then this one on the Piff side had difficulty in reading. Hopefully with your transcription if I manage to find any other wills from this period I may be able to decipher more myself. Once again many thanks Maureen

Geoffers
04-03-2008, 9:56 PM
No problem, Glocuester RO should have large scale maps of the parish, including the survery created for the Tithe Commutation. The old-maps (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/www.old-maps.co.uk)web-site may show some of the locations.

If you get stuck with any other wills, please ask - I'm happy to try and help.

Fare y'well tergerther

Peter Goodey
04-03-2008, 10:15 PM
Out of interest, ar you saying that the George born 1802 is the George mentioned in a will dated 1804?

renwick
04-03-2008, 11:31 PM
If my findings are correct the George b 1802 is the son of George mentioned in the will and the Grandson of the George whose will it was. It looks fairly likely but hope church records will prove a definite link, as then will be back to about mid 1700's. Still not really sure if it is my ancestor, will have to go to Gloucester records office and see if I can definitely tie it up. My husband does not really know that much about his ancestors though thinks there was always a farming connection, I have traced a definite connection to George c 1802 to present day, but on 1851 census says born in Boddington, however as he is living in Boddington in 1851 it could be the reason why he says born Boddington, have found that on other ancestors on my side. Thought I had the 1841 census for him which said down Hatherley, but cannot find it, so could be just imaging it, due to severe family problems have not really looked at it for about two years, but know I kept each family in different folders. I am just getting back into it all and trying to remember where I was have had a lot of problems with my side of the family changing names and uncertain parents possibility of two fathers so got quite complicated on my side. Down Hatherley is not that far from Boddington and there is later connections with Down Hatherley and Hatherley. .

Peter Goodey
05-03-2008, 6:47 AM
If my findings are correct the George b 1802 is the son of George mentioned in the will and the Grandson of the George whose will it was.

That's more plausible than what I thought you meant.

Geoffers
05-03-2008, 8:12 AM
If my findings are correct the George b 1802 is the son of George mentioned in the will and the Grandson of the George whose will it was......Still not really sure if it is my ancestor.......I have traced a definite connection to George c 1802 to present day, but on 1851 census says born in Boddington, however as he is living in Boddington in 1851

Did George (bn c.1802) survive to later census returns and if so can you find him in them? If yes, where do they show him as being born?

Sometimes, reviewing what you have helps to give your research new direction, if you would like some fresh eyes from forum members, please feel free to post some details - how have you traced back to George who was born c.1802?

renwick
05-03-2008, 9:41 PM
Hi Geoffers
Have got 1851 census when living in Twigworth says b in Boddington and 1871 again b in Boddington. His wife Alice in 1851 b Staverton but in 1871 she was b in boddington. Also the first three children where b in Staverton. So think there was a family connection in Staverton.

My husband did not know that much about his ancestors but could remember his paternal Grandmother who lived at Staverton. We obtained his father's birth certificate which confused matters as stated his father was Thomas Piff and the marriage certificate father Charles Piff. Eventually after a lot of false leads we realised that Thomas was Charles's brother and could have gone with her to register the birth and probably there was a mixup as to who he was and who the father was. This was confirmed that it was Charles Piff who was my husband's grandfatherwhen we contacted one of the my husband's relatives who was a descendant of his grandmother and born before she married my husbands grandfather.

Charles (My husband's grandfather) c1869 and Thomas c 1864 where two of the children b to James and Emma Piff, There was also a William c 1867, m Hester with a son Leonard Barrnett who my husband remembered used to come to their house a lot. I have found 7 children all together on 1881 Census. (James b Stoverton, presume Staverton and a Market Gardner) Most of his children where born in Down Hatherley and were Farm Labourers
James was born to George c 1802 and Alice Piff, baptised Staverton June 15th 1828.

This is were I have not tied it up yet according to IGI's

George Piffe C unknown m Sarah Brown 19th June 1766 Deerhurst, Had a son George Christened down Hatherley 4 August 1774. and several other children as mentioned in the will you did for me.
George Piffe Christened 4th August 1774 Down Hatherley Married Ann Legyt 6 Dec 1798 Red Marley C'Abitot Worcs. Had a son George Piffe Christened 07 Feb 1802 Down Hatherley
George Piffe c 1802 m Alice Hands 3rd December 1826 Mary De-Lode's Glos.
All locations are fairly near each other and Staverton and Boddington. So think a good chance they will tally but as yet have not got anything definite.
Hope this all makes sense.

Geoffers
06-03-2008, 1:10 PM
Charles (My husband's grandfather) c1869

c1869 suggests that you don't have his birth certificate, I think you need it to confirm that you are following the right line back from here. The birth certificate will give his mum's maiden name and so help to identify the correct marriage for his parents.

Census returns, freebmd and the GRO index point towards a marriage in March quartre 1852 with Emma WILLIS, but that cannot be taken for granted.


(James b Stoverton, presume Staverton and a Market Gardner)

The 1861 and 1871 census shows it as Staverton (RG9/1763 f29 p7 and RG10/2610 f59 p18)


George Piffe c 1802 m Alice Hands 3rd December 1826 Mary De-Lode's Glos.

Have you been able to trace Groeg PIFF(E) bn c.1802 in any census returns?

renwick
06-03-2008, 10:23 PM
Hi Geoffers
No I don ‘t have the birth certificate, I have the marriage certificate of my husband’s grandfather Charles c1869, together with a copy of the Probate Registry of his Grandmother Alice Piff nee Eskins, naming her son James Piff a farmer as the person to administer the estate, not sure if she left a will, might be interesting if she did. Also have been in touch with descendants of Alice before her marriage to Charles and they have a lot of information on her, and my husband also remembers visiting her at Staverton with his Dad. She died in 1959 when my husband was 16. I think Charles died in 1912 according to free BMD, I might try for the death certificate of him. Alice had a daughter in the first quarter of 1913, who later emigrated to Australia, have e-mailed her children, some time ago but they knew very little. She also had a son b in 1910 who my husband also remembers, he married but had no children.

Have traced George c 1802 in 1861 and 1881 census and both say Boddington, but have found in the past that the Census birthplace and christenings do not always match, sometimes because they do not know and other times because they are christened in the family church. Boddington and Upper Hatherley are quite close. Have also found this for 1841 though does not give birth place
Search 1841 census - results for Piffe
Search again
GEORGE PIFFE
30 Cheltenham & Gloucester
ALICE PIFFE
30 Cheltenham & Gloucester
JAMES PIFFE
12 Cheltenham & Gloucester
MARGARET PIFFE
9 Cheltenham & Gloucester

I hope to go to Gloucester records office some time this year, but will have to fit it in with other commitments. I work and also visit and take my Mum out three times a week, she has dementia and is in a home, she cannot go out unless accompanied and I am trying to keep her routine of coffee mornings with friends, hairdressers, church and general visiting her. Also I look after my grandchildren quite a bit, so need to really ensure I have a complete day free so I am not rushed. It may have to wait until I have summer holidays as I want to know I have enough time to achieve something and not rush in and out.

As I say I am just getting back into it after a couple of years so having to reacquaint myself with all the facts.