Berkeley, Gloucestershire

[alatarial]

Hi, I'm desperately seeking information about St Mary's Churchyard, Berkeley. I'm trying to get hold of burial plot maps in particular, dating to before the 1800s and as far back as possible, but I've been very unsuccessful so far. I have seen the burial records dating back to the 1500s, which list plot references, but not the maps showing the corresponding plots themselves. Does anybody know who might have these? I've tried Gloucester archives office but they have very limited data and I'm finding it difficult to get hold of the Vicar.

I'm also trying to find out about the churchyard boundary wall as part of research I'm currently doing - because the wall seems to have been moved and the churchyard made smaller sometime before 1750 and I'm trying to find out why. I hoped some maps might help here too but the data available on Berkeley at this time is very limited! Has anybody got any ideas of places to look for such maps?

[Geoffers]

Welcome to the British Genealogy forums and good luck with your research.


St Mary's Churchyard, Berkeley. I'm trying to get hold of burial plot maps in particular, dating to before the 1800s and as far back as possible

I don't know the church in particular, but I'm not aware of churches from this period giving plot references to burials


I have seen the burial records dating back to the 1500s, which list plot references, but not the maps showing the corresponding plots themselves

Where are the plot references that you have seen - are they on GENUKI? Are they contemporary to the burials (offhand I cannot think of anywhere that has maintained a brial plot reference over several centuries), or is this a modern survey of all burials within a churchyard? Depending on the manner of applying references, there may not be an associated map.

The survey may have been carried out by the local FHS, who may have further details.


I'm also trying to find out about the churchyard boundary wall as part of research I'm currently doing - because the wall seems to have been moved and the churchyard made smaller sometime before 1750 and I'm trying to find out why.

Decline in population? Land taken for building? There may be something included in parish or diocesan records.

[ChrisKelly]

Have you tried emailing the vicar or any other people?

The history of the church makes for interesting reading. Clearly a lot has happened to the church over the centuries not least that it "formed part of the defences of the castle and was used as such during the Civil War". Might explain some boundary changes!

[alatarial]

Thank you for both your replies and your welcome message, I'm very grateful for your help.


Where are the plot references that you have seen - are they on GENUKI? Are they contemporary to the burials (offhand I cannot think of anywhere that has maintained a brial plot reference over several centuries), or is this a modern survey of all burials within a churchyard? Depending on the manner of applying references, there may not be an associated map.

I found the burial registers at Gloucester Records Office and it was basically a list of names dating all the way back to the 1500s on microfiche, with date of death etc. listed next to each name along with a number, which I thought was the plot reference. I may well have been mistaken however, for the more I look the more I agree that any corresponding grave/plot map probably doesn't exist! If it does exist though, do you think it's possible that it would be held at the church itself? Or are burial maps/plots usually only created by people carrying out surveys?


I have tried GENUKI and they list the Bigland Survey, which I have already consulted without much luck unfortunately. It makes interesting reading, but just as many of the texts documenting the history of Berkeley, they tend to only briefly mention the churchyard itself, if at all.


Have you tried emailing the vicar or any other people?

Yes I've tried to get in contact with the Vicar and the churchwardens via e-mail but with no luck yet. That was only a week ago though so my fingers are still crossed that they'll get back to me! Thank you for the link though, I think giving the vicar a ring might be the better way to go about it.

I thought actually that I might explain some of my research a bit clearer on here, just in case it might help:

I was basically part of an archaeological excavation last year which involved digging a trench in a field next to St Mary's churchyard, right next to the current churchyard boundary. Unfortunately, even though we were only looking for evidence of an early road, we came across approximately 35 skeletons, all buried underneath the wall and extending into the field. It turns out that the wall had been placed directly on top of these skeletons, probably accidentally, meaning they had been forgotten about by the time the wall was built. So I am currently writing a dissertation which aims to date the wall and identify the individuals before they're reburied over the next year or so, also playing a part in the excavation report.

In a 1712 painting the churchyard boundary is located further West down the field in which we found the skeletons, so it looks like the skeletons were once part of the churchyard when it had its old boundary wall. So I know that the boundary has moved since 1712 to its current location, which happens to be on top of the skeletons. Unfortunately this means it was moved after the Civil War, so all the possibilities of it moving during that time don't seem very plausible. However, I'm trying to come up with as many explanations as possible for it moving, but hoped that something might be documented in history.

Does anybody know of any examples of churchyards being made smaller elsewhere in the country at all, and of the reasons behind it?

Thank you

[Geoffers]

I found the burial registers at Gloucester Records Office and it was basically a list of names dating all the way back to the 1500s on microfiche, with date of death etc. listed next to each name along with a number, which I thought was the plot reference.

This sounds like a modern transcription, in which case I would expect the Records Office to have he document catalogued with the source.


I may well have been mistaken however, for the more I look the more I agree that any corresponding grave/plot map probably doesn't exist! If it does exist though, do you think it's possible that it would be held at the church itself?

Impossible to say, but there's one way to find out - if you don't ask, you don't get.


Or are burial maps/plots usually only created by people carrying out surveys?

The only maps/plots for churchyards (as opposed to urban civic cemeteries) that I have found have been created by local history, or family history societies; or individuals interested in make a record for preservation. The surveys I have carried out do not include detailed maps of where graves are, instead I use obvious features in the churchyards/cemeteries to split the thing up into manageable sections. The features used to divide the cemtery being walls or paths.



I was basically part of an archaeological excavation last year which involved digging a trench in a field next to St Mary's churchyard, right next to the current churchyard boundary. Unfortunately, even though we were only looking for evidence of an early road, we came across approximately 35 skeletons, all buried underneath the wall and extending into the field.

How much care had been taken in burial? Could these be pauper burials? - Were they buried at the same time (local epidemic) or over a period of time? Anything found in the graves to date them? This sounds very interestng.


Does anybody know of any examples of churchyards being made smaller elsewhere in the country at all, and of the reasons behind it?

I have a few archaeological publications from Norfolk, I'll have a browse of them and let you know if I fnd owt.

[Alan Welsford]

Or are burial maps/plots usually only created by people carrying out surveys?

I may be being naive, but I would have thought that at most churches and chapels a plan of the graves must have been kept for such time as active burials were occurring.

In some the lion's share of graves were probably never marked with headstones, or in any other way, so how would they have known where to dig when reopening an existing grave, or where not to dig when creating a new one.

I've not seen them personally, but I've had it reported that at certain local nonconformist chapels the grave plans are still held at the chapels, despite no burials in years.

Equally I was told that at one, whilst a plan of numbered plots exists, the list that tells you who is in each is amongst the papers that went from the chapel when a particular pastor moved on.

If any church never had a plan, surely it would have needed a long term grave digger with a very good memory ?

Alan

[AnnB]

How much care had been taken in burial? Could these be pauper burials? - Were they buried at the same time (local epidemic) or over a period of time? Anything found in the graves to date them? This sounds very interestng.



To add to this, suicides might be buried outside the churchyard, as, I believe, might some non-conformists.

Best wishes
Ann

[alatarial]

Hi,


How much care had been taken in burial? Could these be pauper burials? - Were they buried at the same time (local epidemic) or over a period of time? Anything found in the graves to date them? This sounds very interestng.

It's very hard to tell - because the churchyard wall had been placed directly on top of the skeletons at some point, they were greatly disturbed, even with spade marks on some of the bones from when they were (accidentally?) exposed to build the wall. This probably happened a long time after they were initially buried, so a lot of the evidence has been distorted... which doesn't really help my case! It makes for interesting research though. There was quite a bit of pottery and some coins found, leading them to probably be medieval/post-medieval, but such pottery is rather ambiguous to date skeletons with. Whether or not they buried around the same time or over a period of time is something I'm definitley interested in having a look into though...



I have a few archaeological publications from Norfolk, I'll have a browse of them and let you know if I fnd owt.

Thank you, I'd really appreciate it! I need all the help I can get at this point in time... |cheers|


If any church never had a plan, surely it would have needed a long term grave digger with a very good memory ?

Yes that's what I inititally thought too, but the churchwardens don't seem to know of any records that date more than a few decades back, so I'm also rather confused as to how they remember where unmarked graves were, over a long period of time. Could possibly be a topic of discussion though I suppose...


To add to this, suicides might be buried outside the churchyard, as, I believe, might some non-conformists.


This did cross my mind as a reason for them being where they are, but given that the wall was on top of them, and earlier maps showed that the churchyard was once much bigger, I'm guessing they were initially buried inside the boundary before it moved.

Still, does anybody know what the general rule is with marked vs. unmarked graves? Might a certain class or group of people be buried without markings while other graves are marked? I'm just wondering, if this is the case, whether this could be one reason why they didn't know the skeletons were there when they built the new wall...

I'm just throwing ideas around now a bit!

[Alan Welsford]

Hi,
Still, does anybody know what the general rule is with marked vs. unmarked graves? Might a certain class or group of people be buried without markings while other graves are marked?

This surely was a matter of no more than

1) Could the family afford to erect a memorial.

and if they could

2) Was it their practice to do so.

Once I go back more than a few generations, non of my ancestors are in marked graves, and I don't think it's that stones have become old or dangerous and removed - I don't believe the graves were ever marked. Few, if any, of them could have afforded a monument, I think.

I have recently discovered that at least 9 of my Bucks ancestors are all buried at the same small church, but none of the stones there are for anybody in my direct ancestry.

What I don't know there, is are they all squeezed in amidst the graves that are marked, or are they all round the other side of the church, where there is a large grassed area, but no monuments.

I think the latter is unlikely, as, if there were an area for unmarked graves, there would have had to be a rule that a stone could never be erected at a future date. But having seen the burial register, if they are all in the one place, they sure as hell would have needed to maintain a plan!

AS an aside, I'm told that even one of our local council cemeteries, (opened circa 1900), had separate areas for C of E, and for people of other faiths. I've not really explored this, but know that one of my distant cousins is buried right at the far end, (marked grave this time), separated from most of the rest of the graves by a large as yet unused area. I had often wondered why that might be. He was a person of some substance in the town, so it's not going to be for 'bad' reasons, I'm sure.

Alan

[christopher_n_lewis]

AS an aside, I'm told that even one of our local council cemeteries, (opened circa 1900), had separate areas for C of E, and for people of other faiths. I've not really explored this, but know that one of my distant cousins is buried right at the far end, (marked grave this time), separated from most of the rest of the graves by a large as yet unused area. I had often wondered why that might be. He was a person of some substance in the town, so it's not going to be for 'bad' reasons, I'm sure.
Alan

Separate areas are the norm for Victorian civic cemeteries, though usually the distinction was between 'consecrated' and 'unconsecrated' ground.

From mid- to late-Victorian times, in civic cemeteries the arrangement was usually that folk could buy a plot to be buried in, and other members of the family could also be buried there, so often wives and unmarried daughters are buried in the same plot. Naturally these were people who had some money, and so there is usually a stone (but not always, sometimes by choice). Have a wander around one of these cemeteries and you will find members of the Town Council, Doctors, Solicitors, and prosperous Shopkeepers. In Alan's example, his cousin probably chose to be buried in that plot (a story there perhaps?). As the cemeteries have filled up, some of these plots are being re-used, no doubt with much spinning of the original occupants. I believe that current practise is to 'let' the plots for a fixed-term, for example 30 years.

Abroad, customs are different.

Back to the original question, I have never come across an original plan of a church yard before mid-nineteenth century.

Christopher

[SloopJB]

How did you get permission to dig up the church yard without contacting the vicar. I would have thought you would have spoken to him and found any maps before cutting any soil.