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ann.pitts
21-02-2008, 12:07 PM
william flatley to ellen pitt around 1910
william flatley to ellen underwood pre 1886
any help will be great
thanks
ann

Geoffers
21-02-2008, 1:59 PM
Have you tried freebmd (http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl)?

Presumably you have a birth of a child in 1886 - don't assume that the marriage definitely took place before the child was born.

Do you have the family in the 1891 census? Where and when were William and Ellen born?

There is a reference in 1885 to a William FLATTLEY getting married in Wolstanton - but apparantly not to an UNDERWOOD. What is your soruce for the surname? Could she have been widowed when she married William?

Can you identify the second William and Ellen in the 1901 census Where and when were they born? Could Ellen have used another forename or surname? (look at Jun 1907 marriages for a PITT/FLATLEY marriage with slightly different forenames)

elyam
21-02-2008, 2:56 PM
Looking through years near 1886 there is a marriage for William Flatley and Ellen Underwood June qtr 1886 registered in Kidderminster.

Elyam

ChrisKelly
21-02-2008, 3:19 PM
Interesting.
Currently FreeBMB lists a marriage between William Flatley and Elizabeth Whittaker for that date and district (1886, Q2, Kidderminster, 6c, 275). However, in the full GRO there is indeed an Ellen Underwood with the identical GRO reference. Somehow FreeBMB has lost Ellen and managed to link William to Elizabeth. Probably explains why Ann has been going round in circles!

Geoffers
21-02-2008, 4:05 PM
Currently FreeBMB lists a marriage between William Flatley and Elizabeth Whittaker for that date and district

Well it shows that two people of those names married in that quarter and district- but not necessarily to each other.


Somehow FreeBMB has lost Ellen and managed to link William to Elizabeth.

Both William and Elizabeth show because they have the same reference. freebmd has not yet transcribed the Ellen UNDERWOOD entry which is why it does not appear.

Checking the GRO index, Elizabeth WHITTAKER is there - so freebmd must be missing at least one groom and one bride from this quarter/year, vol/page.

It is a good lesson though, freebmd is not complete and does contain errors.

Alan Welsford
21-02-2008, 4:48 PM
It is a good lesson though, freebmd is not complete and does contain errors.

Yes, it's all to easy to think their coverage up until about 1900 is complete.

On the whole it's getting there, but marriages around 1886/1887 are still incomplete, as their coverage chart here

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/progressM.shtml

should show.

You'll also see as you pull up the page with the entries on a percentage figure. I'm not sure I fully understand these as they seem to stick at 99%, never 100%

But if the number you get is less than 99% there's every liklihood that you are looking at a quarter not fully transcribed.

suedent
21-02-2008, 4:57 PM
Alan he coverage page does state that the percentages are only estimates & that they can be as much as 2% out.

For instance according to the coverage page 1860 births are 100% complete, however just this afternoon I found a birth in 1860 that is not included in FreeBMD.

Alan Welsford
21-02-2008, 5:10 PM
Yes, Sue, thanks, and understood.

I guess what I was trying to say, and didn't manage to, is that it often seems to be the case that the graphs for a quarter show it to be 100% complete, but when you pull up an individual page from that quarter it always says 99%

I've seen quite a few cases where an entry has been double-keyed, and each entry matches, but are both wrong transcriptions. Of course in their stats, that counts as a successful transcription.

(That's not intended to be a criticism of the volunteers who transcribe - I think they are bloomin' marvellous, and I certainly couldn't do as well!).

ChrisKelly
21-02-2008, 5:36 PM
Well it shows that two people of those names married in that quarter and district- but not necessarily to each other.


Indeed. I had always assumed that if there are 2, 4 or 6 names that they represent 1, 2 or 3 couples respectively, but that is clearly not the case. Even with 6, there could be non-matching couples out of a batch of 8. I don't know how transcribers go about their job, but I had assumed that if someone was transcribing say the Kidderminster index, they would work through it alphabetically for any given year/Quarter. However, given that in this case Whittaker has apparently been transcribed before Underwood that assumption is false too!

Hmm, thinking about it further, I might have to re-visit some of my own ancestors' marriages that are stubbornly refusing to be found!

Alan Welsford
21-02-2008, 6:17 PM
I had assumed that if someone was transcribing say the Kidderminster index, they would work through it alphabetically for any given year/Quarter. However, given that in this case Whittaker has apparently been transcribed before Underwood that assumption is false too!

Well I'm not a transcriber, so am happy to be corrected if I guess wrong.

My assumption is there is no concept of "transcribing the Kidderminster index".

Because it's the GRO indexes being transcribed, all registration districts are mixed together.

I'm assuming they get handed out for transcription in a way that one person will get one range of surnames alphabetically for the whole country, for a quarter, and someone else another.

So someone will be transcribing the 'WHI' bit that includes Whittaker, but someone else the 'UND' bit that includes Underwood. It's just the luck of the draw which arrives online first.

Go on - somebody tell me I've guessed completely wrong!

What I haven't really understood, but I'm sure there is a rationale to, is why start to broaden out into the 1920s, when the 1837-1900 bit isn't yet complete. It would seem more logical to do whole years, and only widen the coverage when a given date range was fully done.

Alan

ann.pitts
22-02-2008, 5:14 AM
I know for sure june 1886 isn't the one i want.
i know william senior was a widower in 1915 when he married his 2nd wife
its very strange that neither williams marriages shows up
i followed the wrong name for william seniors ellen i always thought it was pitt,but i think it is his son william who wife is pitt.
and william senior is ellen underwood its very confusing .hope you can follow me.
unless i am wrong and ellen pitt married an underwood before she married a flatley.
i have birth cert for one of the children with ellen underwood as the mother and william flatley as the father.
i will be sending for the eldest child to see what it says for the mothers maiden name.
ann

Alan Welsford
22-02-2008, 9:03 AM
Ann,

Bear with me if I ask some silly questions, but I've got rather confused. (Not unusual, I assure you!).

I know for sure june 1886 isn't the one i want.

How do you know please ? Have you bought the certificate, and does it include details that rule it out as being your family, please ?


i have birth cert for one of the children with ellen underwood as the mother and william flatley as the father.

Ah, good! so we definitely know we are hoping to find FLATLEY/UNDERWOOD marriage.
Does the mother's name just say UNDERWOOD formerly FLATLEY, or is there anything more.
It would be helpful to say what date, place, and which child. Also father's occupation - is it Canal Boatman, as I think it is in censuses, (unless I have the wrong familly entirely. :o)


i will be sending for the eldest child to see what it says for the mothers maiden name.
Now I'm confused again.
I assumed eldest child was possibly Samuel who you have in another thread.
I thought you couldn't locate his birth registration ?
Have you, or is there an older child than him, please ?

I am interested to know if this is the canal boatman family, and whether you have at any point evidence of more than the father living aboard his boats. If it's Kidderminster, then we would be talking narrow boats, and unless it was only short haul work, it would be quite normal to find whole families living aboard.

This could heavily affect things like birth registrations, which would just happen to be wherever the boats were, (and as I said elsewhere, it would not be unusual to find birth registration treated as a formality that could be ignored ;)).

Regards,

Alan

ChrisKelly
22-02-2008, 10:26 AM
I've become rather confused about this family too, not helped by the multiple threads (pleeeease don't keep doing that). Anyway, I think I'm just about following it:


I know for sure june 1886 isn't the one i want.
I assume you mean Flatley/Whittaker isn't the one? But a Flatley/Underwood marriage has been identified for June 1886 (see above discussion) that surely IS the one you want? I would strongly recommend that you send off for a copy of the William Flatley marriage (leaving the bride's name blank). The GRO ref is: 1886 / Q2 / Kidderminster / 6c / 275



i know william senior was a widower in 1915 when he married his 2nd wife
How do you know? Have you got the marriage certificate? Who did he marry?



its very strange that neither williams marriages shows up

Two relevant marriages have been identified: Flatley/Underwood in 1886 and Flatley/Pitt in 1907 (in another thread). Why are you ruling them out?



i followed the wrong name for william seniors ellen i always thought it was pitt,but i think it is his son william who wife is pitt.
and william senior is ellen underwood its very confusing .hope you can follow me.
unless i am wrong and ellen pitt married an underwood before she married a flatley.
I think I'm following you, but it's not easy! You've never really explained why you're looking for Pitt in the first place.




i have birth cert for one of the children with ellen underwood as the mother and william flatley as the father.
i will be sending for the eldest child to see what it says for the mothers maiden name.
ann
Do you mean the certificates for Elsie May and Ellen ("Nellie") that I identified previously or different ones?

Going back to an earlier thread, you said "i know ellen is buried in kidderminster with william flatley and buried as ellen flatley". How do you know? Is there a grave and if so what does it say on it? When did they die? Have you got their death certificates and if so what do they say about ages etc?

Finally, there is a death recorded in 1893 in Kidderminster for a William Flatley, born 1824. How does he fit into the picture? Is he William Flatley Snr Snr?

Lots of questions, but just trying to help. :)

Sandyhall
22-02-2008, 11:04 AM
Hi Alan

Yes you are right Transcribers for Free BMD get a list of names in alphabetical order for each quarter of the year in either births or marriages or deaths ie each year has 4 qrts for each B.M.D. so thats 12 qtrs, each starting at A ending at Z.

To Transcribe you have to join a syndicate, each syndicate is allocated a part of the index to transcribe, each syndicate has a co-ordnator, who you send back to when you have transcribed your page, you are told transcribe what you see not what you think it is or think it should be so if there is a error it is so on the original. Each page is checked by the co-ordnator and his team and if you've made an error it is returned to you to be changed, (It may have changed as it was a few years ago that I did it)

Sandy

Geoffers
22-02-2008, 11:13 AM
Another thread has been running which is very close to this, and causing some confusion . The other thread is here (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25563).

It has been closed. A summary of what was written is:

ann.pitts initial enquiry was a request for information on marriage of William FLATLEY to Ellen PITTS, their children being born from 1886 (there is a slight contradiction with this thread, where the pre-1886 marriage was said to be with Ellen UNDERWOOD).

William FLATLEY and Ellen are known to have children: Samuel 1886, William 1890, Nellie 1892, Elsie 1900 - the father was a boatman on the canals.

Chris Kelly kindly checked the GRO index for births and found two possibles:
1899, Sep, FLATELY Elsie May - Wolverhampton - vol.6b p634
1892, Sep, FLATLEY Ellen - Wolverhampton - vol.6b p608

The 1901 census appears to show the above two as born Moxley, Shropshire, but it has been pointed out that Moxley is near to Wolverhampton (and close to canals)

ann.pitts has information from conversation and family letter, but does not appear to have certificates to provide proof.

I hope that summarises the closed thread adequately, if anyone feels that I have mispresented their messages posted on the closed thread, please let me know and I will amend this thread accordingly. To ann.pitts - I hope you can see that it makes sense to have just one thread running on this, my apologies if this causes you any inconvience, but I'm a bear of little brain and nee to keep things simple!

Please just keep this thread going to keep things simple.

Sandyhall
22-02-2008, 11:21 AM
Geoffers
Super Moderator

Thank you I was just sending you a message to ask you to do this |bowdown||bowdown|
Confused me even more when it told me the post was now closed when I tried to post message.

Sandy

Alan Welsford
22-02-2008, 12:46 PM
....there is a slight contradiction with this thread, where the pre-1886 marriage was said to be with Ellen UNDERWOOD.


I think the contradiction is more than slight, hence why Chris, I and probably others, are confused.

The other post, which I was not previously aware of, (and which you have closed) says



i have been searching a record of marriage for my grandfather.his first marriage to ellen pitt, their children were born from 1886.


Whereas this thread starts asking for information on the following marriages



william flatley to ellen pitt around 1910
william flatley to ellen underwood pre 1886


As Ann also says



i have birth cert for one of the children with ellen underwood as the mother and william flatley as the father.


Unless I'm missing something then a marriage of a William FLATLEY to an Ellen UNDERWOOD at sometime near the birth of what I assume is the oldest child, (Samuel), sounds right.

I haven't followed why there's also a request to look for a FLATLEY/PITT marriage prior to the children's births.

I think Ann needs to answer the questions already asked.

Alan

ann.pitts
10-03-2008, 4:32 PM
thanks for all the posts i have ordered the cert for ellen underwood and william flatley
ann

ann.pitts
20-03-2008, 6:54 PM
finally obtained marriage cert for william and ellen
thankyou
ann