St Albans, St Stephens - William Toms/Tombs

[melainedelta]

The IGI give his date of birth as about 1797 but have been unable to find him. He married Hannah Hall 24.11.1821 and died before the 1841 census so I don't know where he came from originally. Lots of Toms in this area.
|help|

[Jan1954]

Hi there,

Have looked at the IGI entry and it was "member submitted", which means that it should be treated with great caution.

The marriage date might be correct, but the IGI assumes that all men married at the age of 25 and calculates the birth year accordingly. This is why it says "about 1796".

However, he appears to have been alive still in 1832/33 as a daughter was baptised in 1833. Hopefully, this should narrow down your time frame in which to search for a death. If found in the Parish Records, it may give his age. If it was after 1 July 1837, you may be able to find a certificate with his age.

[Peter Goodey]

He married Hannah Hall 24.11.1821

There are three entries in the IGI for this event, all of them patron submissions. IGI patron submissions are untrustworthy.

What you need to do is to check that entry in the parish marriage register which I assume will be in Hertford Record Office. You live in Hertford so that shouldn't be any great shakes. In addition to confirming its accuracy, there will be other information which may include the groom's parish of residence. The names of witnesses can also be useful.

It is wise in this game to validate the current step before moving on to the next step.

[Alan Welsford]

I agree with all of what's been said.

It sounds like you have seen the 1841 and 1851 censuses for Hannah and family.

The presence of her sister, Elizabeth Hall, and, (in 1841 only), presumably her mother, Betsey Hall, appear to make the user submitted marriage that's in the IGI quite likely to not be too far from the truth. (That is her maiden name certainly seems to have been Hall).

Her children's ages are also consistent with a marriage around that date, (though if you believe her 1851 age she would have been really quite young).

I'd suggest that as the youngest child is already 8 in 1841, Mr Toms probably didn't survive much after 1833, and that's where I'd start looking for a death. It's highly unlikely he was still around for civil registration.

But as Peter and Jan have stressed, you really do need to check the validity of a user submitted IGI marriage entry, before using it as a basis for going further back up the tree.

Toms/Tombs doesn't seem to be that common a name in St Albans - I think your chances of finding the right events for this family are quite high.

Best wishes,

Alan

[Jan1954]

|idea| Just remembered from my dim and distant past - there used to be a Dr Elsie Toms who was a St. Albans historian. She is long since dead but her works live on.

Next time that you're at Hertford RO, you could ask about her books or, contact the library in St. Albans, whose details may be found here:

http://www.hertsdirect.org/libsleisure/libraries/where/libs/sta

[Peter Goodey]

Here's a possible burial for your man

Burial William TOMS 17 Jan 1841 Aged 43 St Albans St Stephen

Now you need to find out where he came from and the first step is to look at the St Stephens marriage register.

While you're at it, that would be a good time check the above burial because the full entry may have something to help confirm that it's your man. Obviously you'll also need the full details of the childrens' baptisms.

[Alan Welsford]

Here's a possible burial for your man

Burial William TOMS 17 Jan 1841 Aged 43 St Albans St Stephen

Interesting, Peter.

There's no apparent entry for the death in the GRO indexes for a William TOMS, TOMES or TOMBS anywhere close to St Albans. (I looked in the next qtr too).

So either his death was a long way from St Albans, and he was brought back there for burial, (which seems unlikely), or the GRO indexes have missed him for some reason. (Or it's registered as some spelling I didn't try, or I have simply overlooked him, of course ...)

If it's him, I surprised the death is that late, as they were producing children quite rapidly up until 1833. Quite often when the children stop with young parents is the point one has died. (Unless, or course, there were children after that date didn't survive).

[melainedelta]

Thank you all so much for your help. I did find his marriage to Hannah Hall but only seem to have recorded the witnesses - William Ostler, Ann Hall and George Martin. William married Ann 24.12.1822 and I believe there was a George Martin who was a neighbour in 1841. I will have another look the next time I go to County Hall. I did look at baptisms from 1792 but did not find William Toms. The first Toms was Mary 2.11.1800daughter of William & Mary, followed by Elizabeth 1802, James 1807 and Richard 1812. If he was the William who was buried 17.1.1841 aged 43 that would make his birth date about 1797.

[melainedelta]

Interesting, Peter.

There's no apparent entry for the death in the GRO indexes for a William TOMS, TOMES or TOMBS anywhere close to St Albans. (I looked in the next qtr too).

So either his death was a long way from St Albans, and he was brought back there for burial, (which seems unlikely), or the GRO indexes have missed him for some reason. (Or it's registered as some spelling I didn't try, or I have simply overlooked him, of course ...)

If it's him, I surprised the death is that late, as they were producing children quite rapidly up until 1833. Quite often when the children stop with young parents is the point one has died. (Unless, or course, there were children after that date didn't survive).
From the 1841 census Hannah is 35 with 4 children, William 18 (my ancestor), Mary 15, George 12 and Emma 8. Emma was buried 28.2.1849 aged 16.

[Peter Goodey]

Although nowadays you have to have a chit from the registrar before disposing of a body, I think the procedures were rather more loose in the early days.

If I remember correctly, a burial could take place without a registrar's chit and it was then down to the vicar (or whoever) to notify the registrar. A gaping great procedural hole!

[Alan Welsford]

Yes Peter, I believe you are quite correct about procedures being lax about registering a death before a body was buried.

I never have a lot of success with it, but I thought I'd check the LDS British Vital Records Index CDs for that baptism.

There are a number of TOMS/TOMBS baptisms for St Stephens and St Albans, but all are well after the dates of interest.

(I can tell how often I used this CD set, the seal on the required Disc 12 "Births and Christenings T-V" was unbroken - as are many of the others :o)

[melainedelta]

Yes Peter, I believe you are quite correct about procedures being lax about registering a death before a body was buried.

I never have a lot of success with it, but I thought I'd check the LDS British Vital Records Index CDs for that baptism.

There are a number of TOMS/TOMBS baptisms for St Stephens and St Albans, but all are well after the dates of interest.

(I can tell how often I used this CD set, the seal on the required Disc 12 "Births and Christenings T-V" was unbroken - as are many of the others :o)
So where do I go from here to find his birth round about 1797?

[Alan Welsford]

I did look at baptisms from 1792 but did not find William Toms. The first Toms was Mary 2.11.1800daughter of William & Mary, followed by Elizabeth 1802, James 1807 and Richard 1812. If he was the William who was buried 17.1.1841 aged 43 that would make his birth date about 1797.


So where do I go from here to find his birth round about 1797?

Hello again Melanie,

I must admit that despite being a Herts resident, my knowledge of St Albans parishes is nil.

However HALS at Hertford lists parish register holdings for at least the following St Albans churches...

St Albans, Abbey
Christ Church
St Michael
St Peter
St Stephen

Also

St Luke
St Paul
St Saviour

although those last three rather look like they didn't exist at the dates you are interested in

But for the top list, even if William is St Albans born, I think he could have been baptised in just about any of them.

Which Church's registers did you look at when you visited Hertford, please ?
I think you are probably going to have to look at any of the above churches whose registers you have not so far tried.

I just hope for you sake that his parents were not like a lot of mine that I can't trace, namely nonconformists. And of course, with nothing else to go on, he may have been born outside the city.

Alan

[melainedelta]

Hello Alan
I have only looked at St Stephens - I'm not sure of how the churches lie in relation to one another but I'll make a note of them and certainly try any others in the vicinity the next time I go to County Hall. I can usually manage about a couple of hours before my eyes give out!
Thank you so much for your help.

[Jan1954]

Hello again Melanie,

I must admit that despite being a Herts resident, my knowledge of St Albans parishes is nil.

However HALS at Hertford lists parish register holdings for at least the following St Albans churches...

St Albans, Abbey
Been there since the year dot. Full title is: The Cathedral and Abbey Church of St Alban. Parish covers the town of St Albans up to the War Memorial. (I was baptised there and my parents married there - not in that order... :o)


Christ Church

Built in the 1950s and is on the New Greens Estate



St Michael

Another "oldie" and the Parish Church of St. Michael's village. On the Redbourn/Hemel Hempstead side of St. Albans and near to Verulamium


St Peter

Another "oldie" from the 13th century at the top end of St. Peter Street, the other side of the War Memorial.



St Stephen

Ah. Been there since the 10th century and details about it may be found here:

http://www.stalbans.gov.uk/ststephen/index.htm

It's vicar used to ride around St Albans on a bicycle, cloak flapping in the wind behind him. A wonderful sight to behold :D
Also


St Luke
St Paul
St Saviour

All 20th century churches.

Here endeth the lesson in St. Albans churches...

[Jan1954]

I'm not sure of how the churches lie in relation to one another...

The closest one to St Stephen's - not much in it - is St Michael's, followed by the Abbey. St Peter's is the furthest away.

[Alan Welsford]

Jan,

I certainly don't wish to argue with your obviously much greater knowledge of St Albans churches...

But you say....

"Christ Church - Built in the 1950s and is on the New Greens Estate"

HALS claim to have parish registers for Christ Church commencing 1859.

So it sounds like the 1950s build must have replaced something older ?

That said, it should have been in my bottom list. 1859 is well beyond dates of interest to Melanie, so it's one less for her to search.

I'd be worried about relying too heavily on that 1841 burial being our man, and hence jumping to conclusions about his birth date.

If you believe the 1851, Hannah was not born until about 1804, so I'd want to be searching at least that late for a William birth too, I think.

Alan

[Jan1954]

"Christ Church - Built in the 1950s and is on the New Greens Estate"

HALS claim to have parish registers for Christ Church commencing 1859.

So it sounds like the 1950s build must have replaced something older ?



Fair do's. I only know Christchurch as being built when the estate went up. It was open fields before then.

You have now piqued my curiosity and I shall have to find out...;)

[Jan1954]

You have now piqued my curiosity and I shall have to find out...;)

I stand corrected.

The original Christchurch was in Verulam Road. It is a Romanesque building (quite Italianate, in fact) and is now used as commercial premises. If I remember rightly, it housed a recording studio at one point.

I had forgotten completely about it as it has not been used as a church for so long.

The Christchurch on the New Greens estate is a relatively new brick building. I remember the services being held in a corrugated iron hut in the 1950s/60s.

So, getting back to melainedelta's question about which church, this falls between the Abbey and St. Peter's.

[melainedelta]

Thank you so much everyone - what a wonderful history lesson to brighten this foggy morning. I shall certainly investigate the St. Michaels registers the next time I go to HALS.
Elaine

[Clive Blackaby]

Thank you all so much for your help. I did find his marriage to Hannah Hall but only seem to have recorded the witnesses - William Ostler, Ann Hall and George Martin. William married Ann 24.12.1822 and I believe there was a George Martin who was a neighbour in 1841. I will have another look the next time I go to County Hall. I did look at baptisms from 1792 but did not find William Toms. The first Toms was Mary 2.11.1800daughter of William & Mary, followed by Elizabeth 1802, James 1807 and Richard 1812. If he was the William who was buried 17.1.1841 aged 43 that would make his birth date about 1797.
A few thoughts on this

St Stephen's would almost certainly be her parish.
You definitely need to wring as much info as you can from the marriage entry
Does it say "of this parish" or perhaps indicate his parish? Although even that doesn't mean he was born there
Does it state "by banns" or "by licence"? either way you should try to find further details from the banns or the licence
We can't be certain that the William Toms buried at St Stephen's 17/1/1841 is yours, but the balance of probability makes that lead worth following up further.
There are two death entries for William Toms in Q1 1841, one in Liskeard, the other in St Olave Southwark.

TOMS William Liskeard 9 113
TOMS William St Olave Southwark 4 364

The latter is not too improbable, and may be worth the gamble of ordering the cert, if only for purposes of elimination, but ask them to check it first for:-

Consistency with a burial date of 17-1-1841 - we have to assume he died before that date :)
Consistency with the stated age 43 at burial although if the death was registered by someone outside the family, the age on the death cert may be an approximation
Sorry to contradict Alan, but the d.o.b. of his last known offspring can't really be taken as an indicator of his date of death. At best you can use it as indicating that he was probably still alive 9 months before that date. (Our ancestors had their own means of limiting their families, and I have one ancestor who according to some researchers was still siring children 15 years after disappearing from all records, probably transported to Tasmania)

[Alan Welsford]

Sorry to contradict Alan, but the d.o.b. of his last known offspring can't really be taken as an indicator of his date of death. At best you can use it as indicating that he was probably still alive 9 months before that date.
Fair enough, Clive.

I don't think I went so far as to say that DOB of last child was a definite indication of date of death.

If I gave that impression, then I certainly overstated it, and I'm sorry.

What I meant to say is that it is very often the case, with relatively young parents, that when the children stop, there's a good correlation to the death of the father. I certainly didn't mean it as a rule for guessing date of death!

I think I said that I would make the birth of the last child a start point when looking for the death. (I'd now add "unless there's good evidence for starting at a different date!")

In this case there does seem a good chance that the burial record is for the right man.

I guess it's possible the St Albans, William TOMS died in Southwark. My gut feel, (always dangerous in this game), is that as the 1841 census records quite a number of TOMS living in that area south of the Thames, that he is much more likely to be a Londoner.

I'll admit I'm possibly a poor advisor on death certificates. I know they can be invaluable, but in my experience if the death occurred where you are not expecting it, there's an all too good chance of getting an anonymous certificate where a doctor was the informant, and it's very hard to prove one way or the other from the information given that you have the right man.

I've got a couple of death certs on order now, so I'm hoping they will be more informative than others in my file!

Alan

[Clive Blackaby]

I think I said that I would make the birth of the last child a start point when looking for the death.
Can't argue with it as a good starting point, but not a good stopping point in either direction as illustrated by the 3 apparently posthumous children of John Blackerby on the 1841 census (All were baptised with the name of his wife's second ??bigamous?? husband, and took the Blackerby name later)

I guess it's possible the St Albans, William TOMS died in Southwark. My gut feel, (always dangerous in this game), is that as the 1841 census records quite a number of TOMS living in that area south of the Thames, that he is much more likely to be a Londoner.
I have to agree that it is fairly probable he was a Londoner: but if nothing else turns up this one might be worth following up. It might yield a result.
But you can't even work on the "Sherlock Holmes" principle ("How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"), since it assumes that you have all of the facts before you!!

[Alan Welsford]

I've got a couple of death certs on order now, so I'm hoping they will be more informative than others in my file!


It's funny how an off the cuff remark has a funny ending.

One of the death certificates I said I hoped might be "informative" was the one showing my great great grandfather was "killed by the accidental bursting of a gun".

It just put one more item on the pile of things I need to investigate.

[Clive Blackaby]

Love it - file it under "Exit stage left pursued by bear!!"

[melainedelta]

I have had another look at the marriage entry for this couple. It was between William Tombs of this parish, and Hannah Hall of this parish, married by banns on 24 Nov. 1821.
They and 2 of the witnesses made their mark with a X and only George Martin signed.
I have also checked the births at St. Michaels between 1780 and 1812 and no sign of any Toms/Tombs etc.
So, still no nearer to finding out who William's parents were.

[Alan Welsford]

I have also checked the births at St. Michaels between 1780 and 1812 and no sign of any Toms/Tombs etc.

Hi Melanie,

Of course the fact that both are recorded as "of this parish" on the wedding record doesn't mean either or both were necessarily long term "of this parish".
Often one or both parties would have an accommodation address within the parish in the weeks leading up to the marriage, but were actually from elsewhere.

It seems you are going to have to search neighbouring parishes, but before you do that it might be worth looking for an adult baptism some time just before the wedding. Sometimes if someone had slipped through the net, and it was picked up on, then the vicar would insist they were baptised before they could marry.

I have had similar problems researching in Hertfordshire, though not in a big place like St Albans - my brickwall is in Tring, Herts, also around the turn of the 18th to 19th century.

Having scoured parish registers, and also Bishop's transcripts for the period, I'm forced to admit my ancestor was not baptised. Tring was a hotbed of nonconformity, with about 4 Baptist chapels alone, and it is estimated that non-conformists probably outnumbered CofE. Hence for my family, there probably are no records for the births I'm looking for.

I don't know what the situation was in St Albans, but there always remains the possibility that your man wasn't baptised either, I'm afraid.

But it seems you need to do a fair bit more searching before you can conclude as much.

Best wishes

Alan