LOOKING FOR INFO ON DIVORCE IN 1846-50

[Breener]

Hi ,
I'm looking for information on how to find out about a divorce in the Liverpool area around 1845 to 1850. Can anyone help???

Thanks,
Breener

[Geoffers]

Formal Divorce before 1858 was very very rare and cost a lot of money. See this TNA research guide (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=260)on the subject.

What information do you have that the couple in whom you are interested did divorce?

[Breener]

Hi Geoffers,
I'm really not sure that Margaret and James Breen did divorce, I know that all their children: John, Patrick, Philip and James were born in Ireland and that they all came to Liverpool England.
That in the 1851 census Margaret Breen was listed as the head for the family and that the 4 boys were with her. There was no mention of James Breen any were.
Also that in 1856 a Margaret Brew married a John Grannell in Liverpool. This Margaret Brew had 4 sons the same names as James Breen's sons, all born in Ireland and the same birth years and it stated that she was a widow. James Breen died in 1864...
Therefore I think that Margaret Brew could be Margaret Breen wife of James Breen. I thought that if she remarried that they would have had to have gotten a divorce.
So that was why I was looking for info on how to find out about divorces from the 1840's and 50's. Have you got any other ideas????? I need all the help I can get. If I could only find out Margaret's maiden name. I think that would also help!!! There I go,off on another trail again!!!!! Kind regards,
Breener

[Geoffers]

I'm really not sure that Margaret and James Breen did divorce, I know that all their children: John, Patrick, Philip and James were born in Ireland and that they all came to Liverpool England.

I think the chances of a divorce in this case are effectively nil


That in the 1851 census Margaret Breen was listed as the head for the family and that the 4 boys were with her. There was no mention of James Breen anywhere.

Although not conclusive - what was her marital state in the census? Some who are shown as married, in fact had been recently widowed.


Also that in 1856 a Margaret Brew married a John Grannell in Liverpool. This Margaret Brew had 4 sons the same names as James Breen's sons, all born in Ireland and the same birth years and it stated that she was a widow. James Breen died in 1864...

Is the James BREEN who died in 1864 definitely the same chap who was married to Margaret? Who was the informant for his death? What was his occupation? How many James BREENs are shown in the 1861 census?



Therefore I think that Margaret Brew could be Margaret Breen wife of James Breen. I thought that if she remarried that they would have had to have gotten a divorce.

Couples separated and because of the complexity and cost of divorce, did not go down that route - so bigamy existed.

Make sure that you have identified the correct James BREEN as having died in 1864. Could her husband have been the James BREEN who died in Liverpool in Sept qtr 1856, or possibly Mar qtr 1848, or Mar qtr 1851, or Sept qtr 1851, or Sept qtr 1853, or Dec qtr 1853?

[ChrisKelly]

Have you obtained a copy of the marriage certificate between Margaret 'Brew' and John Grannell? It will state the name of her father and, assuming she married as a widow, the father's name will not be Breen.

The census for 1861 backs up your theory well. Living with Margaret and John Grannell are John, Philip and James Breen (step-sons). There's no Patrick but aged 17 he could easily be living and working elsewhere.

[Peter Goodey]

The 1871 census provides a silmilar picture - the sons are clearly shown as BREEN so I'm not sure where BREW comes from.

Additionally there's a Laurence GRANNELL, an 11 year old son. I would guess this is...

Births Sep 1859
Grannell Laurence Joseph Liverpool 8b 205

This birth certificate should (if the rules were followed) confirm the mother's previous names. If you don't have the marriage certificate (and it doesn't sound as if you have), I'd order that at the same time.

[Breener]

Hello everyone,:D

You have all been a great help to me. I'm just going to anwser some of the questions that you asked.

As to the 1851 census Margaret in listed as the head of the family and as for condition of marriage there is nothing listed.
As for when James Breen died. I have the marriage records of James son John (who was my husbands gr-gr-grand father). On the records it states that James Breen was John Breen's father and that he (James) was deceased in 1864, and that he had been a bootmaker.
Its a great idea to send for the marriage records and hopeful find out if Margaret Brew and Margaret Breen are the same person. Also the death records of James Breen, with those two records we might be able to get things straight!!!
Thanks again,
Kind regards,
Breener

[Geoffers]

As to the 1851 census Margaret in listed as the head of the family and as for condition of marriage there is nothing listed.

Okedoke - so from that you cannot infer that she was still married, or that her husband was still alive.


As for when James Breen died. I have the marriage records of James son John (who was my husbands gr-gr-grand father). On the records it states that James Breen was John Breen's father and that he (James) was deceased in 1864,

Is this a marriage certificate dated 1864? If it is and it states as father 'Jamse Breen, bootmaker (deceased)' then all that can be assumed from this is that he died at some time prior to the wedding - so any of the earlier James Breen deaths could be the one you are after.


Its a great idea to send for the marriage records and hopeful find out if Margaret Brew and Margaret Breen are the same person.

I had thought you had already done this from your earlier posting

"Also that in 1856 a Margaret Brew married a John Grannell in Liverpool. This Margaret Brew had 4 sons..........and it stated that she was a widow"

This marriage certificate is something that you do need.


Also the death records of James Breen, with those two records we might be able to get things straight

Death certificates do not necessarily record family members. They provide the following information:
Date and place of death
Name and age
Gender
Occupation
Cause of death
Signature, descriptio and residence of informant

Whilst a family member is often an informant, where cause of death is unknown and cannot be ascertained, then the death will be reported to a coroner and subject to inquest, in which case the Coroner will be the informant.

[ChrisKelly]

Breener, in the 1851 census Margaret Breen is clearly shown as a widow:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/kri-kri/breen1851.jpg

Is this the one that you are referring to or not?

[Breener]

Hello again,
Just a short note to let you know that I have sent for both the death and marriage records. I can hardly wait to see what is on them. Thanks again for all your input. Yes, Chris Kelly that is the 1851 census that I had seen, the one I printed did not have her listed as a widow. As for James passing away in 1864, I have part of a family tree done by a gr-gr- grandson of his and it states that he (James) passed away in 1864. So now I'll just have to wait and see. I'll let you know when the records come in.
Thank,
Breener

[Geoffers]

As for James passing away in 1864, I have part of a family tree done by a gr-gr- grandson of his and it states that he (James) passed away in 1864.

Well done for ordering the records, you need the proof to ensure that you follow the right line.

For the research by the relative to be worthwhile, it needs evidence to support it. Without evidence it is conjecture.

Do let us know what you get from the certificates that you have ordered.