One Wife Two Husbands ?

[Joe90]

Mary Pearce married Thomas Litchfield a soldier prior to marrying my G.G.F.

Mary gave birth to a daughter - Henrietta - on the 24th November 1858 at South Barracks Walmer Kent. Thomas now a Sergeant in the 51st Regiment.

Any information would be most appreciated.

joe.

[Davran]

Joe, what exactly is it that you want to know? :confused:

[ChrisKelly]

It's not clear exactly what information you want.

There is a GRO birth certificate for Henrietta, born in the district of Eastry in 1858, but I assume that you already have it. What are the names of the parents?

In the 1871 census there is a Henrietta with this family:

Robert Owen, head, 44, Pensioner, North Nibley Gloucestershire
Mary Owen wife, 38, Pensioner's wife, Tipperary Ireland
Robert Owen, son, 4, Scholar, Cirencester Gloucestershire
Mary Jane Owen, daughter, 2, Cirencester Gloucestershire
Henrietta Litchfield, daughter-in-law, 12, Scholar, Walmer Kent

How that fits in I'm not sure!

[Mutley]

Joe,
As this post is on the Tipperary forum, any ideas where in Tipperary and who? Is Chris right and it is a reference to Mary Owen?

And can you confirm your G.G.F's name please?

[Alan Welsford]

Henrietta Litchfield, daughter-in-law, 12, Scholar, Walmer Kent

How that fits in I'm not sure!

Hi Chris,

Are you querying "daughter-in-law" on a 12 year old ?

If so it's regularly used in censuses to mean what we now call step-daughter.

So it's reasonably safe to assume that the wife, Mary is on her second marriage with Robert Owen, and that she was previously married to a Mr Litchfield.

And indeed that's what the post says....

"Mary Pearce married Thomas Litchfield a soldier prior to marrying my G.G.F."

That said, I completely failed to find 2 year old Henrietta Litchfield, or mother Mary Litchfield in 1861. (Possibly the soldier thing has put them out of reach of the census, but equally likely I'm just not clever enough to find them!).

Alan

[Joe90]

:o My apologies to Davran, Chris, Mutley and Alan, I confess to a senior moment, I should have been more explicit in my posting.

Alan has hit the nail on the head with his reply. Whilst researching my G.G.Father I discovered the same information as Chris on the 1871 census, 1) who was Mary from Tipperary and 2) Henrietta stepdaughter, this was the first indication I had an Irish ancestor ?

I obtained a copy of Henrietta's birth certificate, she was born on the 24th November 1858 at South Barracks Walmer Kent, mother Mary Litchfield formerly Prearce, father Thomas Litchfield Sergeant 51st Regiment.

The only information I have of Mary I obtained from the census returns. My aim on this thread is to obtain any information relating to Mary, the reason I refered to Sgt Litchfield is the possibility they may have met and married in Ireland as the 51st Regiment served in various parts of the country.

You may be interested to know how it all originated. Following my G.G.Father Robert Owen from Nibley, I located him on the census of 1841 but from that date onwards he completely dissapeared until the census of 1871, this raised a number of issues, two of them I have already identified, the others-- why was my GGF entered as a Pensioner at such a young age, and where were the family living when my GF was born.

I obtained a birth certificate of my GF who was born on the 10th May 1866 at The Armory Barracks Cirencester Gloucestershire, mother Mary Owen formerly Litchfield, father Staff Sergeant Robert Owen. This also confirms their residence at this time.

I know the questions in your minds, what happened to Sgt Litchfield, when and where did Mary marry my GGF and what records have I obtained, the short answer is none. Complete failure to locate wedding certificate, army returns on deaths whilst in service and the complete absence on any census return other than those quoted.

Refering to the census of 1881, the spelling of Leicester was incorrect, it should have stated the Lord Leycester Hospital Warwick. Google this, it is interesting the BBC covered it in a programme last year.


My GGF was admitted as a Brother in 1872 and remained there until his passing in 1902.
The personal records of the Brothers prior to 1920 are lodged at the Warwick Record Office in file CR1600, I will be making an appeal, on the Warwickshire county, for a good samaritan to carry out a look up for me as I am having difficulty in confirming the Regiment my GGf served in and without that I am unable to obtain a record of his army service.

Thanks to all of you for showing an interest, I shall look forward to any suggetions.

Joe.

[Joe90]

Davran,

Sorry for not being explicit, have made an all embracing reply

Joe.

[Joe90]

Hi Chris,
I'm not certain I have replied in the corect format as it were.

Joe

[Joe90]

Hi Mutley,
This is to alert you to my reply.

Joe.

[Joe90]

Hi Alan,
Feeling a bit thick about the replies, how do I reply when I receive four posts in tandem, is it ok to do an all embracing reply and leave you guy's to spot my posting or do quickie alerts ?

Joe.

[Alan Welsford]

Hi Alan,
Feeling a bit thick about the replies, how do I reply when I receive four posts in tandem, is it ok to do an all embracing reply and leave you guy's to spot my posting or do quickie alerts ?

Joe.
Hi Joe,

I'm probably not the best person to comment on form etiquette, being a relative "newbie" myself. (I'm probably not doing things right either :o).

You can certainly "multi-quote' in a reply, and my assumption is that it is quite normal to answer everbody that has come back to you in one single response.

Alan

[Mutley]

Hi Joe,
You can just say thanks everyone or if you wish thanks to x y and z. We don't mind either way. Nice to get a reply, we often don't.

What is useful though, is if someone does give you info or asks you a question that you do respond to that. (It can be all in the same post) because you never know where it may lead.

The reason I asked about Tipperary was because my grandparents were there (Nenagh). My grandmother was born there but my grandfather was Welsh. I was told he served in a Manchester regiment and have found that there were large barracks at Tipperary. I assume he was there, met Gran, married and spent the rest of his life there. I have been unable to find any more information. Ireland is difficult, but maybe you should have a look at the Tipperary Barracks. You can google for this. There are also a few newspapers online for Tipperary. Again it means googleing.

I've searched everywhere I know and I am sorry I cannot help more, but best of luck...

[Joe90]

Hi Mutley,

Thank you for the information I will certainly have a Google and see what turns up.

I do agree with you about replying. Recently I sent five letters seeking information about my Polish GGF enclosing my email address and telephone number, yes you've guessed it Zilch, you question yourself 'did I post the letters'.

Joe.

[Joe90]

Hi Mutley,

I'm still beavering away but, what a surprise to hear a drum and the bugle calls.

It brought back memories when I was in the army, some twit would play the bag pipes under my window at 6 o'clock in the morning. I beleive they have tea in bed at a more civilised hour these days.

Joe.

[Joe90]

So far I have drawn a blank on Tipperary so, I searched the T.N.A. listings for the 51st Regiment to obtain Sgt Litchfields service records hoping they would reveal their marriage records etc;

Unfortunately the reference I quoted - WO25/82 - prompted the following reply ' unable to locate within specified document ' . Sgt L, must have passed on whilst still in service therefore I may have been searching the wrong files. Will give it another try.

Thanks for your interest.

Joe.

[Mutley]

Hello Joe,
Glad you liked the bugles, my dad being a Royal Scot loved all that.

As regards the T.N.A. I struggle with them so I would suggest you start a new thread on one of the military forums. There are many on B:G: who would know exactly what to suggest regarding your quote below.



Unfortunately the reference I quoted - WO25/82 - prompted the following reply ' unable to locate within specified document ' . Sgt L, must have passed on whilst still in service therefore I may have been searching the wrong files.


Good Luck and Best Wishes

[Joe90]

Hello Joe,
Glad you liked the bugles, my dad being a Royal Scot loved all that.

As regards the T.N.A. I struggle with them so I would suggest you start a new thread on one of the military forums. There are many on B:G: who would know exactly what to suggest regarding your quote below.



Good Luck and Best Wishes
Hi Mutley,

Received and will do.

Joe.

[Joe90]

Hi Mutley and Alan,
Have received estimate on WO25/3256 I'm awaiting copy of documents, will keep you posted.

Joe.

[Mutley]

Well Done,
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r297/MutleyBG/crossedfingers-1.png

[Joe90]

At last I have obtained a copy of the marriage certificate of Mary Pearce
(my GGM) to Sgt, Thomas Litchfield at the Parish Church at Ballysax Co Kildare, on the 26th September 1856. Mary's age would be 23 years - calculated from later years UK census returns. The place of residence was recorded as Parish of Ballysax Co Kildare. The Uk census records her place of birth as Tipperary.
The witnesses are Mary McDonnell and John Conway. The fathers of the happy couple, Thomas Litchfield, occupation surgeon and John Pearce Pensioner, were not present.

How can I obtain information about Mary's home and early life, from her marriage onwards I have details of Mary, and her family up to her passing?

Joe 90.

[v.wells]

Joe you could apply to groireland.ie for birth cert for Mary since you have approximate dob and parent names.

I am so happy that you were able to get marriage certificate and hope the military docs dish up a delight!

[Joe90]

Hallo Vanessa, thank you for the information, I thought I would require more details of Mary prior to applying for a certificate, I will make enquiries.
Regarding the military docs, I have obtained Muster Roll's covering a period of
time and the only item of note, other than recording the whereabouts of the Regiment's sergeants for a particular month, is the Roll recording his passing during October 1860.

I would assume - dangerous - the marriage would be a simple entry in the Roll.

Joe.

[Joe90]

Hallo Vanessa,

I have been chasing a Polish Great Grand Father and as a result uncovered an enormous Family Tree, in some small way I believe I made some small contribution.
Back to Mary. Today I made contact with Tipperary and have been advised the only possibilty of Mary's birth being recorded is in Church Records, as state records commenced in 1837, I estimate Mary's DOB to be 1833.

|banghead|Unfortunately I have no idea which parish she was born in, so I am between a rock and a hard place.

Any suggestion's greatfully received.
Joe.

[Joe90]

Where has he been ?
Late December I was recomended by a member of another forum to a person in Ireland, when I made contact the reply indicated usually information would be forthcoming in about two weeks. I thought this was a little ambitious and allowed the weeks to drift by, no contact from Ireland at all, in fact I initiated all the emails, yes I did receive replies but no positive mention of any results. On one occasion I was requested to re-submit all my relevant information as the pertinent file had been lost. Oh and by the way, I had crossed said palm with silver. I have now come to the conclusion I have been blarneyd.

I am now trying a different approach as follows :

A summary of ' One Wife and Two Husbands ' . Mary Pearce , from Tipperary, married Sgt Thomas Litchfield at Ballysax church Co Kildare on the 26th September 1856.
A daughter, Henrietta, was born on the 24 th November 1858 at South Barracks Walmer Kent. The family left England bound for India. Serving in the same Regiment, 51stLight Infantry, was my GGF Robert Owen. On the 15th September 1860 Sgt Thomas Litchfield was posted as 'died at Mean Meer'. Following his death, the Regiment is no longer responsible for the welfare of Mary and Henrietta and they would be left to fend for themselves.
On the 9th July1861 at Mean Meer, Lahore, West Bengal, India, Mary Litchfield married my GGF, there-by taking the first step to becoming my GGM.

My aim has been to uncover details about Mary's life and family in Ireland, so far without success, now I will try another direction through Mary's daughter Henrietta, it is possible - say he with glass half full - that details of Mary could have been passed down over the years.

1880.
Albert Edward Eyles b 1854, occupation coachman, married Henrietta Litchfield b 1858 at Kensington, London.

1881.
This census records the family living at Upgreen, Eversley, Hampshire, with two sons, Albert Edward b 1880 and Thomas Litchfield Eyles b 1881. I made contact with Sara - a resident with knowledge of local history - , she suggested Albert was employed by a wealthy family who had estates in Australia and a London residence. This could account for their marriage taking place in London.

1891.
The family now residing at the Stable Cottage Arthur St, Wimbledon Park House Estate, another wealthy employer, a cook, four house maids, footman, gardeners and Albert the coachman, with additions to his family of : Percy Campbell b 1883, Charles Bethell b 1885, Walter Henry b 1887, Henrietta Ethel b 1888 and Florence Amelia b1890, phew..........no comment.

1901.
Change of address to 6, East Street, Chelsea, - now Bury St - . Two more additions to the family are, Harriet Mary b1892 and
Ethell Ellen b 1893.

1911.
One last move to 80,Arthur Street, Chelsea, - now Dovehouse St, - with the addition of Olive.b 1905. A noteable absentee is Albert snr, reasonable to assume he has passed on.
Daughter's Harriet and Edith have remained with their mother.
The following is unconfirmed : Florence Amelia married John T Sainsbury during the December Qtr, at Chelsea. Harriet married Albert W Powell at Shepton Mallet during the March Qtr, and Henrietta Ethel married John Phillips March Qtr, 1913. There are records of a Henrietta Ethel Phillips b 1912 also a Henrietta Ethel Eyles b 1899 !

Son's : Thomas Litchfield Eyles - coachman - married Ethel Mary Ely in 1906, residing at 13, Bryanston Mews West, with their children, Thomas Henry Albert b 1909 and Bertha Ethel b 1910.
Charles Bethell - postman - married Elizabeth C Cole during 1910 in the Chelsea area, residing at 50, Limerston St, Chelsea.
Percy Campbell - window cleaner - and Walter Henry - horse keeper - living in lodgings at 80, Leader St, Chelsea.
Albert Edward - carman - lodger at 41, Christchurch Ave, Chelsea.

I would appreciate information that would enable me to make contact with any member of the Eyles family. Thank you.

Joe.