Parish Record and Certificate of Marriage - Dates differ?

[Mutley]

I have the marriage certificate of my gg-grandparents. They married on 10 September 1853 at Orset in Essex.

A kind forum member offering to do lookups spotted this marriage in the Parish Records and the date is 10 September 1852.

Which is more likely to be correct please?

[Wilkes_ml]

Is the marriage certificate in your possession a copy obtained from the GRO or a local register office? Does it look like a photo copy or is it typed ( i.e. a copy of a transcript) ? Does the witnesses and parties who married have handwriting that looks different to the rest of the writing? If it looks all the same handwriting then it was probably copied and liable to error.

The parish register is most likely to be correct - and if you have access to a microfiche reader, you could easily obtain the original parish register in fiche form and look at the actual entry. If you went to a library with a printer-fiche reader, you could print off the entry and compare the writing.

Fiche are available from Essex record office at about £1.70 of £2.00 a fiche

[Jan1954]

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee187/Jan_07/geek.jpg
All I can say is I know what I saw...
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee187/Jan_07/thSmiley7.gif

[Wilkes_ml]

if you go to Essex record office website (http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/login.asp)

and go to guest then type in orsett marriage

you will get a list of all marriage registers for Orsett and the refernce number

ORSETT, ST. GILES AND ALL SAINTS D/P 82/1/17 1837-1903

You can then contact the Essex record office and ask for a breakdown and they will send you a list specifying the number of fiche that cover Orsett.

You just have to fill in an order for for the specific fiche you require, and they will send them to you after payment has been received.

[suedent]

The parish register is most likely to be correct - and if you have access to a microfiche reader, you could easily obtain the original parish register in fiche form and look at the actual entry. If you went to a library with a printer-fiche reader, you could print off the entry and compare the writing.

Whilst I agree that generally the Parish records are more accurate it might be the case when the vicar/clerk himself was confused. I was transcribing some PRs recently & the vicar had two different years on the same marriage certificate.

In this particular case the bride happened to be my great aunt so I'll check out the marriage notices in the Cornish Times the next time I visit Cornwall as it's going to be my best bet of settling which year the marriage actually took place!

[Mutley]

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee187/Jan_07/geek.jpg
All I can say is I know what I saw...
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee187/Jan_07/thSmiley7.gif

I think I trust Jan to have seen what she saw, or even to have saw what she had seen, she said it was not raining! ;)

The marriage certificate is a 'Certified Copy of an entry of Marriage' given at the General Register Office. It is on the green paper with the little lion stamp in the bottom right hand corner and I applied to the GRO for it. Unfortunately, they signed with an X :confused:

I wish I had a fiche .... or maybe even a library here.......

[Jan1954]

I think I trust Jan to have seen what she saw, or even to have saw what she had seen, she said it was not raining! ;)

Thank you, Mutley :)


I wish I had a fiche .... or maybe even a library here.......

Bummocks! I can feel a trip to Essex coming on...

I have to go there anyway... newspapers to read, PRs to search, BTs to fondle...

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Pardon me for butting in, but my bet/money is on Jan1954 :D

I've just copied this from my family file for you ......

-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Grant-Salmon
Sent: 14 October 2003 08:46
To: staffordshire.record.office (at) staffordshire.gov.uk
Subject: Query re Marriage Certificate

I shall be very grateful if a kind member of your Staff could solve a problem for me.

I ordered a Marriage Certificate from the BMD Indexes for Jun Qtr 1896 and
the certificate arrived yesterday morning, but on it, next to the entry of
No. 301 ...... the date is written as 25 April 1895.

Could you possibly check the entry for me from your Parish Records
holdings, as this is very confusing?


Thomas Henry FORREST (38) Widower, Occ: Bricklayer m. Elizabeth WHITMORE
(21) Spinster
Married 25 April 1895 Wellington Church, Hanley

Both living at Hill Street, Hanley at time of marriage
Wedding Witnesses:

William BUCKLEY and Sarah Ann BATKIN

Thankyou.
Diane Grant-Salmon


Dear Mrs Grant-Salmon

Thank you for your email, the marriage you asked about took place in 1896.
I hope that this solves your problem I imagine that it was caused by a
transcription error.

yours sincerely

Matthew Blake (Archivist)

Staffordshire Record Office
Eastgate Street, Stafford, ST16 2LZ

[Jan1954]

Cheers Diane! |cheers|

[Wilkes_ml]

Just another idea! What about re-checking the GRO index entry - is it Sep or Dec quarter of 1852 or 1853? If the GRO index is for 1852, then it is highly likely the person copying the information on to the copy certificate made a mistake.

Also, if you suspect that the original curate/vicar wrote the wrong date in the register (I have seen parish registers where some dates are not in sequence)then maybe the banns of marriage ( usually the 6 weeks before marriage) would confirm the year.

[Mutley]

Diane,
Thanks for that, you are certainly not butting in. I have been told since I started this hobby, GET THE CERTIFICATE. It is proof. Now I am beginning to question all the certificates that I have. Does this mean that we need both certificate and Parish Record to verify our facts.

Michelle,
Thanks for your interest in this, you have brought up some very good points. I am asking Jan if she would be so kind, when she can, to check the entry as you say.
I have the GRO application in front of me. It says:
1853 Sept Orsett 4a 121
Seeing as this couple had a child born in 1853, I would suspect it may make a difference to his descendants.

Others wishing to look,
Frederic Horsenell and Mary MacArthy are the bride and groom.
Their eldest son Charles, according to census is born abt 1853.
My g-grandmother is Margaret born abt 1863
both born St. Saviour, Southwark. I cannot find their births.

Any help appreciated....

[Wilkes_ml]

Well, the marriage is clearly indexed in the GRO index in the september quarter of 1853. So in this case I would suspect that the vicar made an error, or the person sending the info on to the GRO made an error. the only way to be absolutely certain of where the error originated would be to compare the parish register marriage with the banns of marriage, maybe also the BT's . If the vicar sent the details to the local register office first, then there is an additional step where an error could occur.

[Mutley]

Thank you again Michelle,
I hope I can sort this otherwise my faith in certificates as evidence will come a-tumble:confused:

I do not know very much about Banns Registers. I assume they were kept in a different register to the Parish Register. I have tried to google for Orsett Banns and have a few hits but to be truthful I do not know what I am looking for.
I know BT's are Bishops Transcripts but I also do not know where to find whether I can purchase these.

I am quite happy to buy whatever is necessary to prove these dates but I can only use a CD not a fiche.

Any comments are welcome....

Thanks

[Geoffers]

I do not know very much about Banns Registers. I assume they were kept in a different register to the Parish Register.

Don't think in terms of A parish register by this period. There were several registers kept by parishes. In the 1850s, for each parish you would expect to find

A register of baptisms
A register of Burials
A register of banns
A register of marriages

Registers vary greatly in quality. The worst examples I have show entries in which there are dates, but no month or year. Problems exist with some marriage registers. I've worked through a register where it would appear as though someone has added the year - afterwards. Other confusion is caused where a Cleric turns over a page to enter a marriage. It seems probable that two pages stuck together and the cleric, rather than waste the paper has turned back and filled in later entries, so the chronological sequence is lost.

It can take ages trying to sort out a probable reason for an apparant error and then how a sequence of events occurred to lead to what is recorded.


I know BT's are Bishops Transcripts but I also do not know where to find whether I can purchase these.

Try the County Record Office, they usually have them.

[Jan1954]

Well, I'm hotfoot (or hot-tyred) back from Chelmsford and I can say that the entry deferably reads 1852.

I managed to print a copy but unable to scan yet as scanner not up and running.

Mutley, I will PM you.

[Wilkes_ml]

When I next order some fiche from the Essex Record Office, I'll try to remember to get Orsett as well. I'm transcribing Essex registers for Free Reg anyway (slowly!!!) , so I don't mind getting extra fiche as they are relatively inexpensive. And it is for a good cause! It could be a few weeks away yet though!

[Mutley]

The registers definitely say 1852
The certificate without doubt says 1853

Thank you to Jan, Michelle and Geoffers

but I am now
HELP!!!http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd96/bradley_the_pokemon_master/neopets/petpets/bubblebee_flip.gif

[Sue Mackay]

I know how you feel Mutley. I found an ancestor's MI in a book of transcriptions, which said he died on 29 December 1873. Imagine my surprise, therefore, when I went to the Record Office and the burial register clearly said he was buried on 1 January 1872. I went and found the grave for myself, and the inscription definitely said he died in 1873. I then ordered his death certificate, only to discover that he died on 29 December 1872, so I had THREE differing opinions! I decided that the death certificate was right and he died in December 1872, then was buried 1 January 1873, but the vicar forgot to change the year - understandable as it was New Year's Day. His gravestone was just plain wrong, as probate was granted on his will in August 1873, so there is no way he could have died the following December! But I had to get four sources to ascertain which one was correct :eek: and TWO of them turned out to be wrong.

[Mutley]

oooh, my brain hurts!!

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/Cleonallie/emotions/thdoh.gif