Waites of Sutton Forest

[Anne W]

Hi all,
I have the thickest of brickwalls re the Waite family and I wondered if some brave soul would have a look at it and maybe offer some suggestions on a way to break through!
My gg grandmother was Charlotte Waite, b14/9/1842 in Mittagong. She was baptised on the 2/6/1843 at the All Saints Church, Sutton Forest. Father William Waite from Mittagong. Farmer, mother Ellen Waite. Charotte married James Phillips on 26/4/1860 at the Church of the Holy Trinity, Berrima. Her mothers maiden name is given as Ellen Newham. Written on the side of the marriage certificate is " The consent of Ellen Monday, mother of the bride was given to the marriage"
Working backwards from this I discovered that on 2/6/1843, the same day Charlotte was baptised, and in the same church, All Saints Sutton Forest, a n Ellen NEENAN married William Monday. I can't find any William Waite who died around this time ( even through tramping around all the cemeteries in the Berrima district) so I can only surmise that William Waite and Ellen Newham/ Neenan were not married and Charlotte was illegitimate.
There are two Waite families in the area at this time John and Mary Waite nee Robinson at Brownley, which was where the modern town of Moss Vale is built, and William and Charlotte Waite at Landsdowne Park ,Sutton Forest. John and William were brothers. John was a convict sent to Australia in 1804. William and Charlotte immigrated some time in the 1830's ( haven't been able to find exactly when). Their eldest daughter Sophia Waite stayed in Kent as she had married a Henry Phillips and was living with him and their children in Gravesend Kent. When Henry died in 1854 Sophia and the kids joined her family in Sutton Forest and it is Sophia and Henry Phillips son James who marries my Charlotte in 1860.
To make it even more confusing, if thats possible, both John and William Waite had sons called William. John and Marys son William was born in 1826 at Sutton Forest, making him just 16 when Charlotte was born. William and Charlottes son William Henry was born c1815. After the death of William Monday in 1857, Charlotte's mother Ellen marries a Thomas Lyon in 1868. On this marriage certificate she gives her age as 39, making her 13 when Charlotte was born! IF Ellen is telling the truth about her age, Charlotte was the product of either teenage lust or something that would require a lengthy gaol sentence these days!
What is interesting is that on the marriage certificate of Ellen Neenan and William Monday, one of the witnesses is Maria Waite, sister of William Henry Waite, daughter of William and Charlotte. Also William Monday was a convict who had been assigned to Jasper Wilmott. Jasper farmed with his brother Thomas Wilmott. Thomas was married to Maria Robinson sister of Mary Waite nee Robinson, John Waites wife. I think I can safely say Ellen Neenan was SOMEHOW connected to the Waites.
At Ellen's 1868 marriage to Thomas Lyons , she gives her parents as Sergeant Denis Neenan and Margaret Scully.There was a Sergeant Denis Neenan of the 57th Regiment, but unfortunately he was having children at the time of Ellens birth with a lady named Margaret LEAHY!
If anyone can offer a suggestion on how to sort this out it would be much appreciated. I've given up three times so far!
Anne

[ChristineR]

You have possibly seen this?

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~garter1/neehan.htm

Did she give her father's rank on the marriage certificate? as that would make a huge difference.

ChristineR :)

[Anne W]

I have seen that site and it has proved very helpful for not only Denis Neenan but my other redcoat Ambrose Burnside. Mr Shepard , who supplied the info, is descended form Ellen Neenan and William Monday and has researched Ellen very extensively before giving it up as impossilble! He was very suprised to hear about my Charlotte. The fact that Ellen was her mother seems to have been a well kept secret.
Sargeant Denis Neenan it appears left the colony some time after his discharge. He transfered from the 57th to the 17th regiment on 1/1 1832 and was discharged on 30/9/1835. He didn't take up the land grant that ex soldiers were offered at the time.
All the children of Denis Neenan and Margaret Leahy who were registered, were registered twice. Once with the mothers name as Mary Leahy and then again with mothers name Margaret Leahy. I haven't come across this before and have no idea why? All the children were born at St Marys Nsw. There is no record of Ellens birth at all.
Bye Anne

[ChristineR]

All the children of Denis Neenan and Margaret Leahy who were registered, were registered twice. Once with the mothers name as Mary Leahy and then again with mothers name Margaret Leahy. I haven't come across this before and have no idea why? All the children were born at St Marys Nsw. There is no record of Ellens birth at all.
Bye Anne

That is not reflected in the indexes - the only one with Margaret and then Mary is Anne's baptism - three entries for her in 1828. This might be only indexed that way because the writing was unclear, I do not think it would mean three baptisms in one year (these are not birth registrations - too soon for that).

She is indexed as Ann NEENAN and Ann NUNAN, both with mum Margaret, and then again as Anne NEENAN mum Mary. Sometimes baptisms are entered twice because they come from different records - one being the original held where the baptism took place, and the other from the copy that was sent into the head office, and then again you have the baptisms that were sent in response to the request of the government for baptism records when they first decided to keep civil records. They only sent transcripts of their records (if they complied at all) not originals.

Catherine has two entries too - but the only difference there is the spelling of Denis / Dennis, mum is Margaret on both of them.

John's two entries as NEEHAM and NEHAN, the parents stay the same.

The trouble is, there is no way of knowing if the SCULLY is a complete red herring - Ellen may have merely made a mistake with her mother's name, this is not unheard of. Or the priest has made an error when writing it down - they do end with a similar sound - SCULLY and LEAHY. It could also be a case of bad handwriting - with the L looking like a S and the H like two Ls. :D but that is really grasping at straws.


He didn't take up the land grant that ex soldiers were offered at the time.

Have you investigated this 1832 correspondence with the Colonial Secretary regarding Land? (State Records index)

Item Reel Surname First name 1stDate LastDate
2/7938 1167 NEENAN Denis 1832 1832

Are you also aware that Catherine (aged 5) and Ann (7) appear to have been placed in the Orphan School 12th January 1836. (NSW Orphan School Index State records) Mother Margaret NEENAN. This would lead me to conclude that Ellen was too old for school, or not from this family.

ChristineR :)

[Anne W]

Hi Christine,
I spent a day at the State Records Reading Rooms at Kingswood a while back checking out all the references they had on the Waites and Denis and his daughters. The Orphan School Records don't give much info , only that the girls were placed in the school on the 12th Jan 1836 by their mother Margaret Leahy. As Denis was discharged from the army the previous Sept, I've always thought this was evidence that he had abandoned his family. But I am probably wrong! I've traced Ann to Victoria were she marries.There is a Catherine Neenan who marries in Goulburn a Charles Hockley in 1858. Ellen was in Goulburn at around the same time. William Monday dies 15th May 1857 in Goulburn Hospital. It's a big coincidence that two young women, both claiming Denis Neenan as their father would be in Goulburn at the same time!
I think Ellen was lying about her age when she married Thomas Lyon in 1868 and she is the daughter of Margaret Leahy and Denis Neenan , probably born between John b9/4/1826 and Ann b24/2/1828.
The problem is there was a Margaret Scully ,wife of Michael Scully soldier in the 48th Regiment. Michael committed suicide in 1818. Margaret died before 13/2/1822 because on that date Michael and Margarets daughter Jane was placed in the Orphan School, mother listed as deceased. Jane ends up marrying a George Boswell in 1832 and moving to Bathurst were she has a son William Alexander Boswell. In 1865 William marries a Martha Elliott in Queanbeyan and they have a number of kids there. Queanbeyan is were Ellen marries Thomas Lyon in 1868. Means nothing at all I know but still a coincidence!
I noticed with Charlotte Waite on her death certificate the informant gives her maiden name as Monday, or her step fathers name. I'm wondering if something similar could be going on with Margaret Scully/ Leahy.Could Michael Scully have married a widow Margaret Leahy who had children? One of them a daughter Margaret? And , just like Charlotte could Margaret have used her step fathers name? Except on official documents , like her childrens baptism records? A long shot but it MIGHT have happened.
By the way , the info about the Neenan kids baptisms reinforces the lesson I should have learnt a long time ago, ALWAYS CHECK THE ORIGINAL!!! I'd been using info from a fellow researcher who is normally very reliable.
Bye Anne