Steam Engines and Engineers

[Anne W]

Hi All,
How would I go about finding the names of companies who supplied Steam Engines to the Royal Navy in the 1830s-1850s? Or should I say is it possible at all from Australia? If it is possible it could help in a breakthrough of the thickest of Brickwalls.
Thanks Anne

[Geoffers]

I don't think this will be easy, and wll be more difficult for research from Australia - sorry.

I believe that the old ADM files (ADM168 and AD170) previously held at The National Archives concerning ship building specs and heir machinery have been transferred to the National Maritime Museum (NMM) at Greenwich.

The NMM (http://www.nmm.ac.uk/) have various collections and online catalogues which may be worth a search.

Early providers of engines included Boulton and Watt who provided the beam engine for HMS Congo; HMS Monkey was built by William Elias Evans at Rotherhithe. HMS Lightning was bult at Deptford with engiens provided b Maudslay. I would think that you may have to look at the construction of individual ships to find out who provided the engines.

Could you give some detail of how/where you are stuck and how this may help - there might possibly be another way around it.

[Anne W]

George Rose was a 3rd class Engineer, joining the Navy 14/8/1831 at the age of 15 (ADM 29/8/155). The information I have on Engineers in the RN is that in the early days of steam, Engineers who joined the Navy very often came with the engine so to speak. In other words most of the RN engineers started off working for the Steam Engine builders. The RN didn't build its own steam engines for a long time and owing to the shortage of engineers, were very glad to have them.
If this is the case with George Rose, finding out who he worked for and more importantly WHERE he worked would go a long way to sorting out this family. George was born and ,as far as I know, raised in Jersey. It sounds like I'd have to find out what ship he was originally on?
I know this is the longest of long shots but so far the Rose family have proved impossible to crack, so I have to chase down every single bit of info I have on them.
Thanks Anne

[Geoffers]

George Rose was a 3rd class Engineer, joining the Navy 14/8/1831 at the age of 15 (ADM 29/8/155).

Ah that will help you then - have you ordered a copy of the document from TNA? I notice that there appaer to be three documents relating to your chap on TNA's catalogue.


The information I have on Engineers in the RN is that in the early days of steam, Engineers who joined the Navy very often came with the engine so to speak.

From 'Up Funnel, Down Screw - The Story of the Naval Engineer' by Geoffrey PENN, Cmdr RN - publ 1955 by William Clowes & sons.

Page 18: "The names of the original engineers of the 'Monkey' and the 'Comet' are not known, but it is possible that, whoever they were, they were workmen from the engine builders; for it appears sometimes to have been the custom for the builders to supply the machinery complete with the engineer! It is certain however, that they had no official position on board. They were, in common with their contemporaries and immediate successors, civilians, under no contract, free to come and go as they wished."

The above is mostly confirmed in N.A.M. Rodger's book 'naval Records for Genealogists' publi 1988 by HMSO (page 26)

Of the documents in TNA's catalogue

ADM29/8/155 relates to Yard Officers and Artificers and shows your chap to be an Engineer 3rd class

ADM29/42/155 and ADM29/66/71 seem to refer to ratings.

The dates given fit in with their being no commissioned ranks until 1847, when more senior Engineers became commissioned officers.

Using RODGER's book suggests other documentary sources that may be available at TNA, but those listed in the catalogue would seem the best initial bet.

[Geoffers]

A few short extracts from 'Up Funnel, Down Screw' mentioned in my previosu posting:

"The early ships' engineers came and went fairly frequently, and few ever stayed in the Navy long enough to be classed as naval engineers......They apepear to have been divided into First-, Second- and Third-class Engineers from teh beginning, but until 1837 thei appointments.......were made locally."

"The first recorded entry (of an engineer) is that of Thomas Brown, who started his service as a third-class engineer on 7th August 1826."

"There are records of many dispreuptable characters among them (engineers); drunkeness, disorderly and mutinous conduct being all too common, together with insolence, absecne witout leave and desertion."

"......some effort was made, even in these early times, to train engineers within the Navy. They were entered as "Engineer's boys, fourth class", and progressed to thried, second and first class, their training, which lasted five years, being carried out entirely at sea........their training was not apparantly taken very seriously by the officers......"

"12.3.1829 John Johnson, 1st Engineer of the Lightning complains about the boy apprentices being ordered about other duties belonging to the sailors...The boys are taken even if the engineer says he cannot spare them without his being consulted."

"Many of the early engineers served no sort of apprenticeship. Some could neither read nor write, and although for the most part they could run their engines satisfactorily there were insatnces of their being quite incapable of repairing defects.......those of the entries from civilian life who had completed an apprenticeship were usually blacksmiths, millwrights and so forth........."

[Geoffers]

Although slightly digressing from the initial topic, this amused me......

On 5th May 1840, Richard PEARMAN (being in a state of intoxication) was said to have put his engines astern, instead of going ahead.

I can well imagine the four letter word of regret that passed his lips; whilst at the same time thinking about the concern expressed by the Captain, whose use of lanaguage might prove him to have been a founder member of the Society for the Propogation of Basic English..... |soapbox|......"Golly gosh Number 1, what do you think might be happening, would you ask the Engineer if he would be so kind as to come and have a little chat........!!!"

[Anne W]

I wonder if that is what the captain really said! Very "stiff upper lip " if it was. I have to thank you a lot for that info re the early engineers. I've been wondering how a 15 year old boy from Jersey would get the training to be an engineer in the first place. But if they didn't even have to be educated..... The fact that the appoinments were made locally is very helpful. I'll definately order his naval records straight away.
From what I can work out George Rose had two seperate stints in the navy. He was certainly out of the service in 1849, as a letter of his has survived, written to his sister in Australia. In it he says he and his wife are back home now (JERSEY) and he has a pension of 40 pounds a year. He then goes back in, I'm guessing for the Crimean War .
What I find puzzling is from what I know of the Rose family in the early 1800s I would have classed them as middle class at least. The description of Engineers doesn't make it sound like a good career choice for a nice middle class boy! But then again the money seems to disappear with the father, Robert Reginald Richmond Rose, who I can find nothing on after 1822.
Thank you so much for all your help
Anne