Warren family

[Dargie]

I would be interested to know if anyone has a connection with the Warren family in Suffolk. There are a many but my branch comes from Beccles, Earl Stonham, Stowmarket and Thingoe
My grandmother (Florence Warren from Stowmarket) was staying with cousins Charles and Henry Warren in Earl Stonham in 1881 but I cannot yet connect the two families. Both families were wheelwrights by trade.
Her father, Harry Warren b 1840, came from Beccles (mother Laura Hudson from Kirton) his father was William also born in Beccles and mother Elizabeth from Walton. He had a sister Mary Ann who went to London as as servant and married into the Stanton family of Silk Mill fame. The cousins however were born in Earl Stonham as was their father Charles. The only possible clue I have is from the 1841 census which shows the cousin's grandfather Thomas with a birth place as just Suffolk, no specific town, so it is possible he did originally come from Beccles and I need to go back a generation of so to find the connection.
Would appreciate any suggestions on how to tackle this! I suppose I would need to get access to parish records for Beccles and Earl Stonham. Hopefully the genealogy centre here in Australia will have those.
Many thanks for help given in the past.

[jeeb]

Hi Dargie,
According to the 1841 census Harry is the (apparent) son of William & Hannah Warren. (You have said his mother was an Elizabeth?)

I wonder if you have found Harry in 1851 as he is 'fairly well disguised'. There is a possible clue to his family connections there which may help unravel the relationships but is possibly more connected on the female side.

He is indexed as Harry Waner born Bedefs but I have checked and he is Harry Warren age 11 born Beccles:-

Ref Ho107/1796 Folio- Not given, Page 1 Roll 207445
Weybread Suffolk
David Hayward head unm 53 farmer born Clopton
Mary Hayward sister in law widow 52 born Stoneham
Harry warren nephew 11 born Beccles

Jeremy

[Dargie]

Wow Jeremy I can see why you are a bronze star member.
I have been sitting here in the aussi heat waiting for 12 oclock and the New Year. To while away the time I have ploughed through every Warren in the 1851 census (about 700!) and could not find any sign of Harry. I am mystified how you found that wierd spelling! I have tried in the past also. I knew his mother had died in 1843 and could find no sign of his father William. As he was only ten I knew some relative must have picked the poor litttle bloke up.
Anyway you have certainly broken down a brick wall there. I am sorry abut the misprint. His mother was indeed Hannah. Today I have been researching the Hudson side (Harry's future wife) and got my ladies names mistyped. Must be this 41 degree celsius heat.
Anyway thank you SO much. I have always suspected that it could have been on the female side although the surname Warren sent me looking up the male side to no avail.Lots of work ahead now! The people on this web site are just amazing and so helpful.
Thank you again, 10 minutes to go to 2009 here in Victoria, Australia
HAPPY NEW YEAR and THANK YOU.

[jeeb]

Wow Jeremy I can see why you are a bronze star member.

Thank you again, 10 minutes to go to 2009 here in Victoria, Australia
HAPPY NEW YEAR and THANK YOU.

Hi Dargie,
Well I knew you were ahead of us in Aus but I didn't realise it was that far ahead, lol. I'll put it down to the excitement of finding Harry and perhaps the odd glass of wine!!
I am very pleased to have launched your year with a good find and if you require any further help please just ask, but no quarantee.
Happy New Year to you and good huntin'


Jeremy

[Dargie]

No I assure you it is the heat!!
Two typos in one day must be a record.
My head has been in the 18th century all day so what is a year or two in a couple of hundred!
Yes, just checked my calendar it IS 2008, you are both right.
Thanks again for the help.|blush|

[birdlip]

Marjorie, you're just as much an insomniac as I am. 2am!....are we the only Aussies left awake on this forum?

[Dargie]

|snore|Too hot to sleep! Too exciting that I found Harry at last! And Daniel now has two wives!
When I eventually got to bed I was still trying to puzzle out the cousin thing!!
Happy TIRED New Year!

[Dargie]

:confused:I think I am about to clarify my status as a definate "newbie" with this post
however:
Thanks to Jeremy I have finally found Harry in 1851. I was worried that the poor chap may have been in the workhouse.
Anyway the cousin delemma is still upon me. Seems as if Suffolk was full of Warrens especially Mary, Charles and Ann!!
In 1851 Harry was a nephew to either David Hayward or Sister in law Mary Hayward.
I do not think David was the uncle although I have sent for Harry's birth cert. to verify mother Hannah's maiden name.
This appears to be David's one and only appearance on the stage of life so I turned to Mary.
1841 married to shop keeper Samuel Hayward. (Crowfield)
1846 Samuel dies (Plomsgate)
1851 housekeeper for David Hayward unmarried farmer (with Harry) (Weybread)
1861 housekeeper for Charles Hayward unmarried blacksmith (Swefling)
1871 Living with Martha and Mary Baxter classified as an annuitant -- does this mean living off her own means? (Rendham)
1872 Mary dies.(Rendham)

I have found two maiden Hayward ladies who I think may have been sisters to Samuel , Charles and David living in the same district. Seems as if they were all afraid of committment expect Samuel who took the plunge with Mary.Samuel dying worked out well for David and Charles!

My problem is that as Mary had no children what are my options for finding out her maiden name? I hope it is Warren but of course it could be something else by marriage.

Her marriage would have been prior Free BMD so is going to parish records at Stonham Aspall where she was born the only option? I read somewhere on this forum that the marriage usually took place in the brides parish. If that fails do I try parishes surrounding that village? Or go to the grooms parish.

Problem no 2

I have found a letter from a relative in Farnham. No surname and no date but an address. I have figured out due to the fact he mentions he is 80 that I have the choice of two relatives. Is there any way I can find out who lived at "Wesroyd" Werdon(sp?) Road Farnham approx 1946. I have checked a map of Farnham and cannot find the road, probably under some main highway now.

Many thanks for all help given in the past. Thanks Jeremy for offer to give further help! I quite understand - no guarantees.

[Dargie]

This forum is just amazing!! I have just found the answer to question 2 above thanks to Trish in answer to David regarding a street address.

Street maps UK has confirmed for me that the Farnham in my letter is actually in Surrey not the one in Suffolk!! No wonder I couldn't find the street. Verification of who this letter came ftom has solved the huge family mystery of a lost relative.

Thanks again for the collective wisdom found on this forum.

[jeeb]

:

My problem is that as Mary had no children what are my options for finding out her maiden name? I hope it is Warren but of course it could be something else by marriage.



Samuel Hayward & Mary Tydeman 5 Feb 1826 Stoneham Aspall, Suffolk


Jeremy

[birdlip]

Good morning Marj,

I had a look on IGI for a Samuel Hayward marrying a Mary 1830 +/-10 years, in England. Scrolling through, there were two matches for Suffolk, one in 1823 in Sudbury, the other in 1826 in Stonham Aspall, which I think is probably the one you're looking for. it was to a Mary Tydeman. Not the answer you were hoping for, I know!

regards Jan

[birdlip]

Just had another look to see if a Mary Warren married a Tydeman earlier. I thought it might be a second marriage.... no luck.

[birdlip]

Oh Jeremy..... not only am I a slow typist, I must learn not to be so long winded!

[jeeb]

Hi Dargie,

These leads are worth persuing:-


1851 census
Ref HO107/1802 Folio 725 Page 4
Swefling Suffolk
William Hayward 70 Blacksmith Born Swefling
Elizabeth wife 69 born Swefling
Charles Unm son 44 Blacksmith born Swefling

This is Charles that Mary is with in 1861

There is also an entry in 1841 that is interesting because of names and occupation and is probably connected somehow:-

1841 census
Ref HO107/1042 Folio 19 Page 30
Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
David Hayward 55 Blacksmith born in county
Deborah Hayward 55 born in county
Laura* Hayward 15 born in county.

*possibly a connection with Laura Hudson who later marries Harry Warren.

Jeremy

[Dargie]

Hi Jan
This hobby is all consuming! Hope you have a nice cool day up your way.
Thank you so much for your help although as you anticipated I did not want to know about that surname.Looks as if I have a maze ahead of me with a lot of female relatives changing names.
Maybe when I get the birth certificate back I will solve the nephew bit but certainly not the cousin bit! You amaze me how you glean such info from IGI. I tried that but came up with nothing! That must be why you are a coral star and I am a nothing star!!
You will no doubt hear from me again!
Have a good day and thanks again.
Marj.

[Dargie]

Wow thanks Jeremy.
Now I need a cup of coffee before I tackle this one.
Bury St Edmunds is interesting because there were a lot of Warrens in Thingoe and Stowmarket where my Harry and Laura lived. My mother actually was born in Bury.

[birdlip]

Hi Marj,

I'm hanging out for tomorrow, the predicted temp is 24, which will be just beautiful... welcome relief. I don't know what's going on with all the star stuff, I can't keep up with it! Yesterday or the day before I noticed I was suddenly a Pearl star. Today I'm Coral! I must have passed some magic number of posts.

Anyway, if you go to 'Advanced search' on IGI, it allows you to put in more detail, it cuts down on the amount of entries you have to wade through. Its all trial and error, isn't it. Like you, I've learnt a lot from this forum, and had such a lot of help from others, including Jeremy.

regards birdlip

[suffolk sue]

From Suffolk Marriage Index

William WARREN of Earl Stonham
Hannah TYDEMAN


1st January, 1830 = Stonham Aspal

[suffolk sue]

Another one

David HAYWARD of Earl Stonham
Susan THROWER

23rd July, 1833 = Debenham

[jeeb]

From Suffolk Marriage Index

William WARREN of Earl Stonham
Hannah TYDEMAN


1st January, 1830 = Stonham Aspal

There you are Marj, Sue has solved it for you. It's the female line. Still the Warren cousins to unravel though.

Jeremy

[Dargie]

Thank you, thank you Suffolk Sue and Jeremy.
Now I can get some sleep!
AND actually Jeremy I know that Suffolk Sue has also solved my cousin problem!!
I always assumed that both William and Hannah were born in Beccles a la 1841 census. Now I realize the 1841 census only shows county of birth and the Beccles bit was where they were actually living. That is where I went up the wrong garden path.
NOW it is quite obvious, thanks to Sue, that William came from Stonham Earl AS DID the family of cousins with which grandma was staying at Coddenham. Their father, siblings etc were born in Stonham Earl. Grandma's grandfather Willam must have been the brother of Thomas, the cousins grandfather (finer details to be confirmed!) All born in Stonham Earl and that is why Harry and Hannah later lived in Stowmarket and Grandma was born there. Beccles must have been just a stop along the way as William was a wheelwright.
problem solved!!!
When I come to Suffolk in October I would like to present you, Suffolk Sue, with a very large bouquet of flowers, or bottle of champagne!
My new problem now is what brick wall do I attack next!
This forum is amazing. Gold stars all round.|hug|

[birdlip]

..and congratulations on becoming a china star!

[Dargie]

Thanks Jan, it has been a big day!! China star-----sounds a little fragile!!:D

[Dargie]

:DA final thank you to Jeremy, Suffolk Sue and Birdlip.
The icing on the cake so to speak!

Due to the fact that Jeremy was able to discover that Harry Waner from Bedefs was actually Harry Warren from Beccles living with an aunt Mary in 1851 and you were all able to help me discover the whys and wherefores of that relationship I have solved yet another puzzle!

Contained in my packet of 19th century photos entitled "Unknown" I have a photo of a very dear old lady in a long silk dress and bonnet which is inscribed with my grandmother's writing ........."Aunt Hayward"

BINGO

[birdlip]

Oh wow Marj, how wonderful! Any chance of you posting it for us to have a look at?

I'm a bit cheeky asking even, because I wouldn't know how to do it myself. I'd have to ask my resident Technical support man, fortunately son number 2 is an IT manager too...

[Dargie]

Would love to if I could!!
Husband doesn't turn the computer on, IT literate son in London!
Maybe if someone posts clear instructions for a Computer Dummie..me ....I sure will give it a try.

[suffolk sue]

Hi

Please be aware that when it says someone comes from a certain parish at the time of marriage, it doesn't necessarily mean its their birth parish.

[Dargie]

Ok, thanks Sue, I won't close the file yet.
However, as Willam does not appear anywhere in the Beccles register I will concentrate on double checking the Stonham Earl registers to confirm my assumptions. I realize I will need official sources.
I have ordered Harry's birth certificate. Will it state birthplace of the father, William?

[suffolk sue]

No it won't state a birthplace for Willam.

[Dargie]

A very kind person has advised me that Stonham Earl PR details are on the web.
The church has made details available to everyone. I am sure a donation is in order.
I have now proved my assumptions were correct.
Thomas and William were brothers and William was born in Stonham Earl in 1794. And I now have information about their siblings and mother's maiden name - Garrard. ( siblings, wives,cousins, aunts, uncles etc etc!)
What is that saying I have read - " When I find one ancestor I then need to find two more!"
Thank you again to everyone for their help.

[Artemas]

I have belatedly found this thread; I have been researching my Tydeman line for several years and now have a "tree" of 1800 names which trace back to William Tydeman about 1600 in Earl Stonham. The family includes links to Australia & USA.

The Earl Stonham Church has one of the most beautiful timber roofs in Suffolk and the church yard still has some Tydeman gravestones

Please get in touch if you are interested in my work

[timhay2006]

A very kind person has advised me that Stonham Earl PR details are on the web.
The church has made details available to everyone. I am sure a donation is in order.
I have now proved my assumptions were correct.
Thomas and William were brothers and William was born in Stonham Earl in 1794. And I now have information about their siblings and mother's maiden name - Garrard. ( siblings, wives,cousins, aunts, uncles etc etc!)
What is that saying I have read - " When I find one ancestor I then need to find two more!"
Thank you again to everyone for their help.

I am a Warren also descended from Warrens who were Suffolk based in Henley near Ipswich. Father was Charles (1795), a wheelwright, married to Mary Lambird (1801) daughter of John Lambird (wheelwright) with 4? chldren including William (1829) also a Wheelright. It is my guess that your wheelwright Warrens are the same family a generation earlier. I have a lot of queries regarding these which I will post later.
If we can make a connection there is a lot more to tell. However I also thought you would be interested to know that the Tydemans are still farming in the next door village (across the road) to Earl Stonham as it is known in England. This village is Stonham Aspal.

Timhay2006(Warren)

[timhay2006]

I would be interested to know if anyone has a connection with the Warren family in Suffolk. There are a many but my branch comes from Beccles, Earl Stonham, Stowmarket and Thingoe
My grandmother (Florence Warren from Stowmarket) was staying with cousins Charles and Henry Warren in Earl Stonham in 1881 but I cannot yet connect the two families. Both families were wheelwrights by trade.
Her father, Harry Warren b 1840, came from Beccles (mother Laura Hudson from Kirton) his father was William also born in Beccles and mother Elizabeth from Walton. He had a sister Mary Ann who went to London as as servant and married into the Stanton family of Silk Mill fame. The cousins however were born in Earl Stonham as was their father Charles. The only possible clue I have is from the 1841 census which shows the cousin's grandfather Thomas with a birth place as just Suffolk, no specific town, so it is possible he did originally come from Beccles and I need to go back a generation of so to find the connection.
Would appreciate any suggestions on how to tackle this! I suppose I would need to get access to parish records for Beccles and Earl Stonham. Hopefully the genealogy centre here in Australia will have those.
Many thanks for help given in the past.

Hello Dargie
Your Thomas Warren was almost certainly born in Henley in Suffolk in 1866? He was in Earl Stonham in the 1841 census with siblings including Robert and Charles the latter being my great great grandfather. The Warren family of wheelwrights were certainly widespread in suffolk, The original Wheelwrights shop and family home are beneath a small garage workshop now.

The above mentioned Robert Warren went to London and Bedfordshire before returning to London. Hi son Robert was also my Great Grandmother Amelia Warren (Charles daughter) husband. Was it a marriage of convenience, incest or was he adopted?? They married in 1857 and then he disappears completely. So many questions. Not sure how this forum works but I would really appreciate some help here.

I can supply more info about the Henley crew if it is of interest.

Tim Warren

[Dargie]

Hi Tim

Please accept my apology for this late reply.
We have been overseas for 6 weeks and just returned to Australia.
My greatest sorrow however was that due to am unexpected and unwelcome early return to Australia, owing to a medical emergency, I was unable to visit Suffolk and retrace so many footsteps which was my dream.
However I was thrilled to find your message and will now get back to long distance family history with the great people on this forum!
We look forward to another trip in a couple of years time. Delayed rewards!!
I will reply to your message in full tomorrow as I have just returned home and found the email.
Cheers
Marj.

[Dargie]

Hi Tim

Wow.... this is getting very interesting and confusing!!

My Thomas was actually baptized 9/9/1758 in Earl Stonham not 1766 but I am so grateful for any information about Henley as I have a brickwall when it comes to a birthplace for his parents as they do not appear anywhere in Earl Stonham prior to the baptism of Thomas and his sister. I also believe he was married twice as Elizabeth, mother to Thomas above died in 1766. Maybe your family came into the picture through a second wife? We have a lot of work to do!!:confused:

In 1841 Thomas and his wife Maria were living with Charles their son but not the same Charles as yours.

I must now go back to 1841 census and do some hunting. I knew there were other Warrens in the same area and you may have solved my questions about them. Fantastic.:) Oh dear, another subscription coming up!

BUT.... It will take some time!!! What may be best for me to do is send you a pm and let you have all my data on my Warren family.
It will be really great if we can match up the jigsaw pieces and get this sorted.:D

I would love to have any Warren /Henley information that you may have.

Many thanks for the message

Marj.

[Dargie]

I have belatedly found this thread; I have been researching my Tydeman line for several years and now have a "tree" of 1800 names which trace back to William Tydeman about 1600 in Earl Stonham. The family includes links to Australia & USA.

The Earl Stonham Church has one of the most beautiful timber roofs in Suffolk and the church yard still has some Tydeman gravestones

Please get in touch if you are interested in my work

Hello Artemas

I would certainly love to get in touch with you and talk about the Tydeman family. I would also be very interested to hear about the Australian descendents unless of course it is ME!!:D

I will send you a pm and see if we can share info. I have read about the Earl Stonham church and hope one day to see it.

Cheers

Marj. in OZ

[timhay2006]

Hi Tim

Wow.... this is getting very interesting and confusing!!

My Thomas was actually baptized 9/9/1758 in Earl Stonham not 1766 but I am so grateful for any information about Henley as I have a brickwall when it comes to a birthplace for his parents as they do not appear anywhere in Earl Stonham prior to the baptism of Thomas and his sister. I also believe he was married twice as Elizabeth, mother to Thomas above died in 1766. Maybe your family came into the picture through a second wife? We have a lot of work to do!!:confused:

In 1841 Thomas and his wife Maria were living with Charles their son but not the same Charles as yours.

I must now go back to 1841 census and do some hunting. I knew there were other Warrens in the same area and you may have solved my questions about them. Fantastic.:) Oh dear, another subscription coming up!

BUT.... It will take some time!!! What may be best for me to do is send you a pm and let you have all my data on my Warren family.
It will be really great if we can match up the jigsaw pieces and get this sorted.:D

I would love to have any Warren /Henley information that you may have.

Many thanks for the message

Marj.
Hello Marge

I think I may have misled us both re the particular thomas etc but I still believe the Henley Warrens and the Earl Stonham Warrens have the same root. If you email me [you can exchange email addresses via BG's PM system] I can make you a guest on my Ancestry site. My guess (yet to be proven is that (John) father to my Charles may have been born to a Thomas from Aldham about 15 miles away who is most likely to be related to the Hadleigh Warrens. I have a theory that they are all descended from the Nayland Warrens (again not many miles away) This is a well documented family and goes back several centuries. The alternatives are much harder to justify as they are from Hampshire, Cambridgeshire and Cheshire. There is a link to Bedfordshire as you will see on the site, but it may be a transitory link.

As for the Tydemans, I know the current generation of farmers from Stanham Aspal (just across the A120 fro Earl Stonham). It would fascinate me to think that I was convolutedly related to them. David Tydeman is a keen folk music enthusiast and a morris dancer, living in a really old moated farmhouse.

Thought the background might be of interest to you.

I will try to get back to the task of proving the links shortly as work i heavy at present, but anything you can find out would be gratefully received.

I am sure I told you that the Henley Warrens were also Wheelrights didn't I. On my ancestry site I have a copy of the 1829 tithe map showing the postition of their house and shop (now a small secondhand car dealership).

Thats it for now

Kind regards

Tim Warren

[Artemas]

Just to add a bit to this discussion.
Harry was the nephew of Mary Hayward.
Mary (nee Tydeman (1874- ?)) married Samuel Hayward in 1826. Mary was a sister of Hannah Tydeman (1801- ) who married William Warren in 1830

Can anyone give the dates of Hannah & William's deaths ?

[Dargie]

Hi Artemas

William and Hannah were my great, great grandparents.

William died 1850 in Stowmarket
Hannah died 1841 (I think in childbirth) in Beccles.

If you would like to have any of my Warren data please let me know.
Cheers

Marj.

[Artemas]

Hi Marj

Thank you for the dates.

The only other link I have to the Warren family is Sophia Tydeman (born 6 Jan 1779, Earl Stonham). She married William Warren in Earl Stonham on 23 Dec 1800.

Do you know any more about them - just to tidy up loose ends

Best wishes

[Dargie]

Hi Marj


Do you know any more about them - just to tidy up loose ends

Best wishes

Hi Artemas


If only............. This family of Warrens has been haunting me for months. I just cannot work out where they fit in although I am sure there must be some connection somewhere as they all live in Stonham Earl. He does not appear to be a sibling to my Thomas so I suspect a cousin. That William does not appear as a Stonham Earl baptism.
I am going to try and get together with Tim (above) via emails and shared data to get to the bottom of this. Hopefuly his Henley connections will lead us in the right direction.
I will certainly let you know if I solve the puzzle. It is a bit of a nightmare at the moment but hey...... a puzzle is always there to be solved!
regards

Marj.:)

[sparklingsilver]

A very kind person has advised me that Stonham Earl PR details are on the web.
The church has made details available to everyone. I am sure a donation is in order.
I have now proved my assumptions were correct.
Thomas and William were brothers and William was born in Stonham Earl in 1794. And I now have information about their siblings and mother's maiden name - Garrard. ( siblings, wives,cousins, aunts, uncles etc etc!)
What is that saying I have read - " When I find one ancestor I then need to find two more!"
Thank you again to everyone for their help.


Well a little late but hopefully not too late. I am a new member to the forum although an old hand at genealogy. I thought you might be interested in the following: my 3rd Gt. grandparents, Charles and Martha Garrard nee Gowing/Gowen, came from Wetheringsett cum Brockford, Suffolk. Charles in his will includes detail of his wheelwright workshop in the occupation of Thomas Warren. I have not followed this up but suspect Thomas was related to Charles.
His niece Maria Garrard (daughter of his brother William) married Thomas Warren of Stonham Earl on 17 Oct 1793 at Wetheringsett. There are no children recorded at Wetheringsett – did they simply move on marriage to Stonham Earl. The other interesting thing is that another brother, John Garrard, married for a second time on 28 Dec 1789 Mary Hayward. On 5th Dec 1786 John died and his widow, Mary nee Hayward, on 20 Sep 1787 married John's brother William Garrard, widower (Maria Garrard's father). Talk about keeping it in the family. If any thing of this means any thing to you I would be delighted to know.

[Dargie]

Hi Sparkling Silver

Yes, I would absolutely say this infomation does mean something to me, in fact quite a lot!:clap:

Thomas and Maria did in fact return to Earl Stonham where my great, great grandfather William Warren was baptized 16th novenber 1794.
Thomas and Maria had nine children born in Earl Stonham. The sons were all Wheelwrights Blacksmsiths or Carpenters.

I am extremely interested in the will you mention naming Thomas. I wonder if Thomas was in fact only renting the Wheelwright shop or did have some connection to Charles. In any event he did marry his daughter Maria. I would love to read the whole context of the will which mentions Thomas if it is possible.

Recently I have been thrown into some confusion over Thomas and his parents but this information could help to clarify the situation. I would greatly appreciate any and all comments.

I have Thomas born in Earl Stonham about 1758 with a sister Elizabeth born 1759. Their mother Elizabeth Marsh dies 1766 and father Thomas marries second wife Martha Palmer 1767.

I have a resettlement notice regarding Thomas (listed as a school master) Martha ,Thomas and Elizabeth to travel to Debenham from Framlingham. Was Thomas senior therefore the responsibility of Framlingham and not Earl Stonham where he was married? I can find no baptism for Thomas senior in Earl Stonham.

I have burial for Thomas Senior in Debenham 4th July 1807 and Martha 11th December 1804.
I have will of Thomas Senior where he is willing practically everything to a nephew (relation of Martha) who is a school master! His son Thomas receives a very smalll amount of money and a share of his clothes with the nephew.

My problem with all this is if Thomas senior was a school master would it be feasible that his only son was both a wheelwright and also illiterate?

Possibly your information could explain this mystery.

Maybe Thomas junior was related to Charles Garrard and it was through him he learnt the wheelwright trade at a young age and he and his school master father were not on close terms. If education was not actually compulsory maybe Thomas decided that working in a trade was more in his interest than book learning.
Incidentally Maria did sign her name on her marriage day although Thomas signed with a cross.

I would love to hear more about this situation and will also attempt to look into a possible connection of both families. Thank you so much for your contribution.

Marj.

[sparklingsilver]

Hello Marj,
I am delighted to have news of Maria and Thomas and their children. Unfortunately, I do not believe the will of Charles Garrard can help you clarify the Warren situation. The wheelwright premises at Beccles owned by Charles were either rented by Thomas or he worked for Charles. Unfortunately, whatever the situation it is not made clear in the will. However, you are more than welcome to have a copy. I will look it out tomorrow - old files and it will do me good to dig a little since I can hardly get into my computer room for boxes of files.
I would love to have details of Thomas and Maria's children at Earl Stonham if possible. Families did move around the different villages in the area but if they fell on hard times they were removed back to the village/town which the family was originally identified with. I assume it is possible that Maria's children have left descendants at Beccles.
Maria's parents are William (Charles Garrard’s brother) and Frances Garrard nee Aldrich who married at Wetheringsett cum Brockford on 19th Feb, 1771. They had six children: Frances bp: 22 Jun 1772; Maria bp: 3 Dec 1773; Susanna bp: 21 May 1775; Elizabeth bp: 31 Dec 1776; John bp: 10 Jun 1778; and Sophia bp: 25 Feb 1781. Their mother, Frances, was buried at Wetheringsett on 19 Jul 1786. When Maria’s sister, Frances, marred John Bilneys of Linsteed on 12 May 1794 her grandmother,
Elizabeth Garrard nee Tye (bp: 17 Oct 1723; buried on 13 Nov 1804, aged 81) signed the entry as a witnesses.
Incidentally, how am I going to send you a copy of the will?
Valerie.






Hi Sparkling Silver

Yes, I would absolutely say this infomation does mean something to me, in fact quite a lot!:clap:

Thomas and Maria did in fact return to Earl Stonham where my great, great grandfather William Warren was baptized 16th novenber 1794.
Thomas and Maria had nine children born in Earl Stonham. The sons were all Wheelwrights Blacksmsiths or Carpenters.

I am extremely interested in the will you mention naming Thomas. I wonder if Thomas was in fact only renting the Wheelwright shop or did have some connection to Charles. In any event he did marry his daughter Maria. I would love to read the whole context of the will which mentions Thomas if it is possible.

Recently I have been thrown into some confusion over Thomas and his parents but this information could help to clarify the situation. I would greatly appreciate any and all comments.

I have Thomas born in Earl Stonham about 1758 with a sister Elizabeth born 1759. Their mother Elizabeth Marsh dies 1766 and father Thomas marries second wife Martha Palmer 1767.

I have a resettlement notice regarding Thomas (listed as a school master) Martha ,Thomas and Elizabeth to travel to Debenham from Framlingham. Was Thomas senior therefore the responsibility of Framlingham and not Earl Stonham where he was married? I can find no baptism for Thomas senior in Earl Stonham.

I have burial for Thomas Senior in Debenham 4th July 1807 and Martha 11th December 1804.
I have will of Thomas Senior where he is willing practically everything to a nephew (relation of Martha) who is a school master! His son Thomas receives a very smalll amount of money and a share of his clothes with the nephew.

My problem with all this is if Thomas senior was a school master would it be feasible that his only son was both a wheelwright and also illiterate?

Possibly your information could explain this mystery.

Maybe Thomas junior was related to Charles Garrard and it was through him he learnt the wheelwright trade at a young age and he and his school master father were not on close terms. If education was not actually compulsory maybe Thomas decided that working in a trade was more in his interest than book learning.
Incidentally Maria did sign her name on her marriage day although Thomas signed with a cross.

I would love to hear more about this situation and will also attempt to look into a possible connection of both families. Thank you so much for your contribution.

Marj.

[Dargie]

Hi again Valerie

Well one never knows what a new day will bring!!
I am so delighted to receive all your information regarding my previously unknown 4x great grandparents and even my 5xgreat grandmother! Thank you so much.
Thomas and Maria named their last child Frances Elizabeth so it is clear now where that came from!
I am particularly interested by your reference to Beccles. Was the wheelwright shop which was mentioned in the will actually in Beccles, Wetheringsett or Earl Stonham. The reason I ask is that my great great grandfather William (First born of Thomas and Maria) moved to the wheelwright shop in Beccles after his marriage and my great grandfather was born there. Such an interesting story and sad. I have serached for the death of William for ages and just found that he was drowned in the river at Beccles in 1843.
A kind gentleman in Beccles recently sent me a read out on the past owners of the Wheelwright shop, I must dig it out. I have recently changed computers and a lot is stored on my old computer which takes quite a while to access.
If you do not think that the will gives me any new information please don't spend the time sending it. However if it is the wheelwright shop in Beccles it may show some little hint on why William moved there. I thought it may be a Warren connection but perhaps not!
I want to send you all I have on Thomas and Maria so will do so off line... If you go to my profile you can send me an email message which will then in turn show your email address. (I think that is the correct procedure) That way we can exchange emails with all the relevant details. I have such a lot on the children of Thomas and Maria which may interest you.

Regards
Marj.

[Dargie]

Just an additonal piece of information

I have found the information given me by a helpful gentleman in Beccles. Here is the history of the Wheelwright shop in Smallgate street whihc begins in 1698

Here are the dates which concern our ancestors

1830 Charles Garrod, wheelwright, [died 1834] house & premises on west side of Smallgate,
late Robert Beane (later C Cheston) Rent 8d 1/2d
1835 Charles Cheston, one of executors of Charles Garrard, deceased, house on west side of
Smallgate late Robert Beane Rent 8d 1/2
1837 William Pidgeon of Worlingham, wheelwright, , house on west side of Smallgate late
Charles Garrard, before Robert Beane Rent 8d 1/2
1839 William Warren, wheelwright, house on west side of Smallgate, late William Pidgeon,
formerly Charles Garrard, before Robert Beane Rent 8d 1/2d
1844 Norwich Mercury 2 Mar SALE of Premises in Smallgate, William Warren, Gig maker & Wheelwright.
1844 Charles Chinery, (1771- 1854) farmer, house on west side of Smallgate, late William Warren,
formerly William Pidgeon, Charles Garrard


So William was actually the one who took over the shop not Thomas.......Thomas was already well settled in Earl Stonham in 1834. I wonder why Thomas was mentioned in the will ánd where Charles Cheston comes in all this?:confused5:

[Clivekw]

A friend has traced my family back to the above. This information would appear to relate to the facts set out in Post 953 September 2007 by Dargie. If this is the case we are related way back at Earl Stonham! Would be very pleased to hear from anyone interested. Clivekw

[Dargie]

Hello Clivekw

I am so thrilled to hear from you. I would love to know what information you have on this family.
If you would like to private message me I will return the email with all that have.
You will see by post 43 above that I have great confusion about this family.
I have always felt sure that my Thomas is the son of the Thomas and Elizabeth you mention but the birthdate according to his death certificate is 1764 not 1758. I have the will belonging to your Thomas and as mentioned he was a school teacher and it seems strange that his son, my ancestor, would be a wheelwright. However it could be correct as Thomas left his son Thomas 10 pounds and a share in his old clothes! The house, grounds and all other assets went to his nephew, by his second wife Martha. The nephew was also a school teacher so possibly my Thomas as a wheelwright was not a favourite!
Another problem is that my Thomas signed his marriage certificate with a cross and that seems to be quite strange if his father was a school teacher.
My Thomas did come from Earl Stonham at time of his marriage but as Suffolk Sue pointed out that may not mean he was actually baptized there.
I am hoping your research may throw a little light on the subject! I do hope you have some wheelwrights on your side of the tree?:smile5:

[bitzar]

Hi team... Sorry to revive such an old thread but I’m descended from Thomas Warren and Maria Garrad.

Bitzar,
Melbourne.

[Clivekw]

I am descended from Thomas Warren and Elizabeth Marsh and have been unable to go back further. They are the parents of the Thomas Warren that you have mentioned. There is a doubt to this statement as the Thomas Warren b circa 1732 was a schoolmaster and his Son Thomas b about 1758 signed his marriage certificate to Maria Gerrard with an 'X'. I have recently had correspondence with a person who stated that they are aware, from research, that certain Vicars in bygone days, would sign marriage certificates with a 'X', prior to the ceremony!