Catholic Marriage

[Mary Kennedy]

I have been trying to find the registration of marriage for my great grandparents -

James Kennedy and Mary Madden or Mahoney. Married between 1880-1887

I presume they married in Fulham or Hammersmith (both were Catholics) but have been unsuccess in find their marriage entry.

Also the BMD also does not have an entry for them in their database.

Any suggestions?


Mary Kennedy Flynn
Toronto

[Geoffers]

If the marriage was in England or Wales, then assuming they did marry and given the date it should appear in the GRO index. Have you checked the full index or just the freebmd transcript?

Have you found them in the 1891 census? If so, do they have any children and how old are they?

Do you have any birth certificates of their children to confirm the maiden name of the bride?

[Mary Kennedy]

Hi,

I have only checked the BMD not the GRO index.

How do I find the GRO index.


Mary

[Geoffers]

I have only checked the BMD not the GRO index.
How do I find the GRO index.


freebmd is a useful tool but is incomplete and contains errors.

It is a transcript of the General Register Office (GRO) index which can be found online on many pay-per-view sites, such as findmypast, The Genealogist, bmdregisters, rootsuk and other sites, you will find adverts for most of them in genealogical magazines.

Out of curiosity......


James Kennedy and Mary Madden or Mahoney. Married between 1880-1887

Why the uncertainty over the bride's maiden name? Does it differ in birth certificates of their children?

[birdlip]

Hi Mary,

there is a marriage on freebmd for a James Kennedy with a Mary MAHER on the same page. I don't know if you've considered this one. I thought it could be a case of the registrar being unfamiliar with the name;

Jun qu 1881
Kennedy James, Poplar 1c 1162

regards birdlip

[barrie2302]

Have had a look at the GRO on Ancestry, The girls full name is Mary Jane Maher.

brummie.

[lorna4]

are you still looking for information about you grandparents catholic details of their marriage?
in the eyes of the english law , they do not recognise in the catholic faith when you marry as a legal marriage, so you have too have a civil marriage ceremony too.
when my parents married in church 40+ years ago i believe my mother telling me they were married in church by the vicar ad then they had too have a little ceremony done by a registrar from the local registry office to make it legal in the eyes of the law. when my sister got married in church in 1981 her marriage too her husband was not recognised. she had too be married in a registry office 24 hours before her church wedding for it too be legal.
best wishes
lorna4

[Alan Welsford]

Hi Lorna,

Welcome!

I'm intrigued by what you have said, as it's not how I understand things to be.

From 1754 to 1837 English marriages had to take place in a C of E Church, (the only exceptions allowed were Quaker & Jewish weddings)

From 1837 civil marriages became possible. My understanding was that if a marriage took place in a non C of E church, (i.e. Catholic, Nonconformist, etc), then a civil registrar had to be present to record the marriage, in addition to the church priest or minister.

I believe that from (I think) 1898, Catholic priests and non-conformist ministers started to be recognised as authorised people to conduct a marriage, and the presence of a civil registrar ceased to be required.

Someone will enlighten us, I'm sure, but for 20th or 21st century marriages, I can't think why a church wedding would need a separate trip to a registrars.

Was your experience in churches that were not for one of the more "standard" forms of Christanity, I wonder ?

Best wishes,

Alan

[v.wells]

My sister married at the Registry Office with 2 witnesses present. In order that the marriage be recognized by the RC Doctrine, they had to have a ceremony in the Chapel of the RC Church. He was catholic and she wasn't but adopted the faith. This was 1971.

[Alan Welsford]

I'd say that's somewhat different.

That sounds like the RC church will not accept a civil wedding.

The essence of the post I responded to was that if a marriage has taken place in an RC church that it's not accepted by the state unless backed up by a civil ceremony.

That doesn't sound right. I's say throughout the 20th century any English marriage performed in a Catholic Church was generally accepted in it's own right, without further formalities.

But as ever, I'm on here to learn, so if there are exceptions to that, I'd be happy to hear about them.

A.

[jeanettemarie]

That doesn't sound right. I's say throughout the 20th century any English marriage performed in a Catholic Church was generally accepted in it's own right, without further formalities.

But as ever, I'm on here to learn, so if there are exceptions to that, I'd be happy to hear about them.

A.

I got married in 1971 in a catholic church,and we did have to have a registrar present, to witness the marriage and sign the register, but not a seperate ceremony
Jeanette

[Mutley]

I have an 1883, 1919 and a 1947 marriage certificate. The marriages took place in a Catholic church and at the bottom it says:

Married in XXXX according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Roman Catholic Church by Certificate by me and are signed by the R. C. Priest and the Registrar.

[v.wells]

I'd say that's somewhat different.

That sounds like the RC church will not accept a civil wedding.

The essence of the post I responded to was that if a marriage has taken place in an RC church that it's not accepted by the state unless backed up by a civil ceremony.

That doesn't sound right. I's say throughout the 20th century any English marriage performed in a Catholic Church was generally accepted in it's own right, without further formalities.

But as ever, I'm on here to learn, so if there are exceptions to that, I'd be happy to hear about them.

A. Sorry Alan, I forgot to mention that my sis got married in Guernsey Registrar's office the first time to her husband, and a month later in London. I was present at both.

[Colin Moretti]

Barbara Dixon's book about marriage certificates describes the situation up to about 2000. Non-conformist churches (including RC) had to be registered for marriages. From 1837 to 1898 the ceremony was conducted by a minister of the church after the civil preliminaries as for a register office marriage and the marriage was registered by an attending civil registrar in the register office register. After that date the churches could have their own Authorised Persons responsible for their own registers. Some smaller churches did not bother to try to meet the requirements and there are still today (or at least at the time Barbara wrote her book) some who have to have the civil registrar in attendance to record the marriage.

[Alan Welsford]

Some smaller churches did not bother to try to meet the requirements and there are still today (or at least at the time Barbara wrote her book) some who have to have the civil registrar in attendance to record the marriage.

Colin, many thanks for that - it makes things much clearer.

Literally half an hour ago I checked the wedding certificate for my parents who married in a small Baptist chapel in Rattlesden, Suffolk.

I was surprised not just to see the minister's name, (fairly unusual as it was my mother's father!), but also that of a civil registrar. This is what I was used to seeing for nonconformist marriages 1837-1898, but not what I expected in the 20th century.

Now you have explained the situation, all is clear.

I said I might learn something I didn't know. :o

I still don't understand the point about a civil ceremony having to occur on a different day. I think there must be fairly unique reasons surrounding such an occurrence.

A.

[Colin Moretti]

... I still don't understand the point about a civil ceremony having to occur on a different day. I think there must be fairly unique reasons surrounding such an occurrence.

A.I'm not aware of any legal or ecclesiastical reason why the civil ceremony had to take place on a different day; maybe the registrar was busy on the later date or perhaps the church ceremony took place on a Sunday.

Colin

[Jiffie]

when my sister got married in church in 1981 her marriage too her husband was not recognised. she had too be married in a registry office 24 hours before her church wedding for it too be legal.
best wishes
lorna4

I certainly hope thats not the case, 'cos if so I've been stuffed for the past 27 years!
Jiff ....... who married in 1981 in a Catholic Church
As far as I'm aware marriages in a Catholic church are considered legal and binding in English Law, though when that started I'm not sure. Surely must've been 20th century though.

[Colin Moretti]

...As far as I'm aware marriages in a Catholic church are considered legal and binding in English Law, though when that started I'm not sure. Surely must've been 20th century though.Of course they are, and have been from the start of civil registration in 1837, provided they were properly registered and there were no other legal reasons why the marriage was invalid - presumably you didn't marry your sibling, for example! :D

See my message above, no 14.

Colin

[Marie C..]

According to the rites of the Roman Catholic church,Roman catholics have to be married in a Roman catholic church by an RC priest. A registrar is present by law.
A marriage between RC's in a non-catholic church is not recognised by the church therefore the couple were regarded as"unmarried" or "living in sin"!
Until fairly recently RC's could not attend protestant weddings.My mother could not attend her son's wedding as he married a non-RC in a C of E church.
My grandmother , an Irish RC. married a British non-catholic soldier in Ireland in a non-rc church(RC church wouldn't marry them) and never considered herself"married". It was a source of sorrow to her.
I married a non-catholic in an RC church 50 yrs ago and the register was not pleased having to attend as it was a Sunday.
Marie

[Mutley]

My grandmother , an Irish RC. married a British non-catholic soldier in Ireland in a non-rc church(RC church wouldn't marry them) and never considered herself"married". It was a source of sorrow to her.
Marie

My grandmother also an Irish RC also married a British soldier in Ireland in about 1920. We presumed he was RC because the children were brought up in the RC faith.

I do not have the marriage certificate and wondered if you have one, were given your certificate or did you send for it?

[billysax]

My wife and I married in a Catholic church in 1959. I well remember the time of the ceremony being set by what time the Registrar could attend. Marriages today in the Catholic church are still dependant on a Registrar being present, in the case of our Parish church, two lady parishoners who have undergone training and instruction qualifying them to act as Registrars.

[Raphael]

I'd say that's somewhat different.

That sounds like the RC church will not accept a civil wedding.

The essence of the post I responded to was that if a marriage has taken place in an RC church that it's not accepted by the state unless backed up by a civil ceremony.

That doesn't sound right. I's say throughout the 20th century any English marriage performed in a Catholic Church was generally accepted in it's own right, without further formalities.

But as ever, I'm on here to learn, so if there are exceptions to that, I'd be happy to hear about them.

A.

Hello Alan,

I agree withg your logic [quote-- "did accept the marriage in it's own right"unquote]. My mother's marriage Cert states Solemnised by the Holy rights of the Catholic Church, Our Lady of Mount Carmel Blackley Manchester. The certificate is signed by the Priest, and additionally by the Registery Clerk in the Vestary after the service in the prescence of my mother and father who signed, and the witness's who also signed. The same procedure also as above, for my Mother's & Father's (my grandparents) in a Catholic church in 1863 in Hayfield Derbyshire. The Mass was carried out in the origina Tridentine Latin manner, which was changed in 1962. In recent years the Vatican is considering reverting back.

Kind Regards
Raphael
UK & Germany

[Marie C..]

Mutley,
Hope it is ok to reply, not hijacking or anything?
I knew nothing of my grandmother's life apart from the irish songs and stories she told me the one time I stayed with her.
My mother told me Granny "wasn't properly married."
All these years later when I started fam.hist.I could find nothing for her anywhere.
Then came the army records on A.......and it gave me place of marriage and births of children.
Then searched fmp.for army births and sent off for cert. Army certs are very sparse/name place/date.
Just last year had a bit of luck when a kind person found that it was the non- RC church she was married in.(two churches of same name in Birr).
(For an Irish Catholic to marry a proddy English soldier was unacceptable in the Ireland of those days.)
If you can't find a birth or marriage and you know the chap was in the army then fmp generally has it.
No! I have no cert for Granny's marriage.Know only from details on the birth cert for the first child and they were married as it says"Recorded as a child of the marriage of ....Sgt........(batchelor) and ..... (spinster). Army details gave place of the baptism and I then got very lucky through" the kindness of strangers" I have to write to the church for copy of record.
M

[Mutley]

Thank you Marie, it is very interesting. I don't think we are hi-jacking, the subject is still RC marriages. However, if someone disagrees, I'll move us elsewhere.

As you say,

(For an Irish Catholic to marry a proddy English soldier was unacceptable in the Ireland of those days.)

Yet we both seem to have found one. I had just assumed mine was a catholic but maybe not. It seems that there are many mixed marriages and this thread has reminded me to look further, where I least expect the evidence to be.:)

By the birth of their children he had left the army and the name is too common to pin down his records without, at least his father's name. I am desperate for that marriage certificate.

Thanks again, I will try FMP.

[Marie C..]

Mutley,
If you look for his baptism you will know whether he was an RC or not. Mixed marriages often work very well and since the non-catholic has to promise to allow the children of the marriage to be brought up as catholics(maybe that has changed now?) then the children were all catholic until they lapsed or whatever.
It was different with Irish catholics as their lives revolved around their religion. They were treated as outcasts. by their own family and my grandmother was most coldly received by her English, in -laws when the army returned to England.Her husband was dis-inherited.

If you know where the first child was born then it is quite likely the couple were married there.
Marie

[Mutley]

Thanks again Marie,

My soldier grandfather was actually a Welshman, with such a common name, there are hundreds of them, which is why I cannot establish his birth, baptism or army records.

I do know that all his children were Tipperary born and he and Nanna died there. I don't know if he ever left Ireland after the war.

So, thanks again for the advice, that is where I shall look.

P.S. and I have just found Nanna's birth and her mother is Margaret Mary Madden. Right back where this thread started. :)

[Marie C..]

How can it be Margaret Mary Madden?
It was Mary Kennedy who was looking for a Mary Madden.
Wonder where Mary's Mary came from......before Fulham or Hammersmith?
Maybe Tipperary North?

M