elizabeth

[Elizabeth]

Hi every one I am new to the Forum and I am looking foreward to meeting you
My name is Margaret and I emigrated to Perth Western Australia in 1967 with my husband Trevor and 3 young children they are now all grown up with children of their own we now have 9 grand children and 1 great grand child so as you see I am not a young chick anymore.|laugh1|
I have been searching my family tree for about 20 years I am doing Trevor's tree as well as all the materal lines.I have done OK with most of the families but a very tough brick wall that I just can't break down if someone can help I would be in debt for ever,marriage of George Smith (soldier) to Elizabeth Sands.
they had a son George Smith born 1858 in Marylebone.Middlesex.
(my G.Grandfarther). I found Elizabeth 1861 census in Marylebone with a son named George she is 31 and says that she was born in Essex, he is 3 born in Marylebone which would be about right I hope. I can't find them anywhere elseI have been through other census with no luck maybe I can't see the wood for the trees who knows.|help|
My other names :-- Thomas.Jenkins.Emanuel (in Wales) and Hart. Amey.Perry.
(SurrEY kind regards Margaret:)

[Geoffers]

marriage of George Smith (soldier) to Elizabeth Sands. they had a son George Smith born 1858 in Marylebone.Middlesex.
(my G.Grandfather)

Any idea in which regiment your George served? Also do you have any idea of the dates when he served?

Some army marriages are available - the (Army) Chaplains' returns are indexed and can be found on pay-per-view sites such as 'findmypast'. There is another set of army marriages which are not indexed - these are the Regimental Registers of marriage for which you need to know a regiment to have search conducted.

George is making it hard enough for you with a name like Smith - I don't suppose he made up for this by being kind enough to have been an officer so you can find him in the Army List??

[Elizabeth]

Hi I am sorry but I don't know anything about George Smith and Elizabeth.
I have the birth cert. for George Smith jnr. 27 July 1858 born Marylebone workhouse house. mother is down as Elizabeth Smith formerly Sands.Father George Smith (soldier)He was married 22 Feb. 1885 St. Marylebone. to Mary ann Saunders. fathers occupation is Soldier
I found him on the 1861 census then on the 1891 and 1901.with his wife and children.
But nothing of George Smith snr.
I am realy not much help, but it does seem that he was in the army at least up to 1885 what do you think?
regards Margaret

[Geoffers]

Do you know when George (father) died and his age at death?

George's service record will be at The National Archives (TNA), Kew, l
London. Have a look at the reseach guides
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/researchguidesindex.asp#b
particularly those regarding British Army Soldiers' Discharge papers and also pension records.

Do you know if the couple had any other children - if so, who, when and where?

[Elizabeth]

Iam sorry but I have no info at all other than I have already said I wish I had.
Can I search for the army records online if not what else can I do to se them.
Margaret

[Geoffers]

Where you look and what is available depends on when your chap served in the army, which underwent substantial reorganisation in the 19th century - hence the digging to try and narrow down a date.

Let's come forward a generation to George SMITH bn 1858 - do you have his marriage certificate? If so, when and where did he marry, who were the witnesses to the marriage, where was he living when he married (and is this close to where he married), and although not definitive - is his father recorded with an occuaption or does the certificate record George SMITH (Deceased) as his father?

[Elizabeth]

Where you look and what is available depends on when your chap served in the army, which underwent substantial reorganisation in the 19th century - hence the digging to try and narrow down a date.

Let's come forward a generation to George SMITH bn 1858 - do you have his marriage certificate? If so, when and where did he marry, who were the witnesses to the marriage, where was he living when he married (and is this close to where he married), and although not definitive - is his father recorded with an occuaption or does the certificate record George SMITH (Deceased) as his father?
George Smith jnr.married Mary Ann Saunders Feb.22 1885 at The Church of St.Sepulchre
Marylebone. it is difficult to read but I think that is what it says.
Witnesses:- David James Richardson X his mark. and Elizabeth Saunders (sister).
Residence:- 21 Beckets Place.Marylebone Fathers name George Smith.(soldier) Mary Ann,Residence:- 50 Townsend Cottages.Marylebone. Fathers name William Saunders(bricklayer.

Thanks Margaret

[Geoffers]

Since George was a father in 1858 (so we can assume born pre-1842) and a soldier in 1885 (when he would be aged 43+) he would therefore have retired before 1900.

TNA's catalogue
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp
indicates where to find records. Some records are individually indexed, others are in collections where the first and last name of those appearing are recorded. In the abvoe URL, enter:
Word or phrase: SMITH
Dates: 1883-1900
Department or Series Code: WO97

You'll get a series of hits which show that George SMITHs appear in documents WO97/3885-3888. This is around 400 records to search. A lot, but at least it has narrowed things down. With the infromation you have, I think you may either have to hire a professional to go through the records looking for anyone whose next of kin matches these records - or - if you have any family/know anyone who could go there for you and spend a couple of horuse going through them.

There two notes of caution in relation to this - although George SMITH was shown as a soldier in the 1885 marriage, he may have already died and it was not recorded on the marriage certificate. Also, people sometimes recorded a father on marriage certificates who did not exist, or who was some other relation. With these notes of caution, I do think it is still worth exploring the military records as these are likely to be your best hope and George (soldier) may well have been posted abroad at the time of census returns.

I was hoping that one of the witnesses may have had some relationship to SMITH, but the 1881 census shows David James RICHARDSON as living at 50, Townshend Cottages in Marylebone - so I would guess it was the address that is the connection.

One last tip - chose relatives with a differnt surname :-)

[Elizabeth]

IF only|laugh1|
Thankyou for all of your help I hope that I will be able to trace him from here keep your fingers crossed.
thanks again
bye for now Margaret

[Elizabeth]

Can you recomend someone that will search Army record for me Please
Margaret

[Geoffers]

I cannot recommend anyoe in particular as I do my own research. However, if you go to TNA's web-site and look here
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/gettingstarted/paid_research.htm?source=ddmenu_research2
You'll see that you can pay a lot for TNA to do it for you - or there is a link to paid researchers who may be able to assist.

DO check their fees before engaging anyone.
DO get an estimate.
DO give the researcher a limit as to what you want to spend

That will protect both of you from any misunderstanding.

[Elizabeth]

can you recomend a military researcher for me please
Thank you

[Geoffers]

See my last response to your previous question!