Certification of Marriage Returns

[Ken Boyce]

UK Registrars could not/cannot by law issue certified copies of Marriage Register entries unless the register was/is legally in their possession

Can someone enlighten me as to whether the Transcribed Quarterly Returns of Marriages collected by the Local District Superintendent Registrar from the various holders of the Registers had to be certified by the Transcriber and was there any legal requirement as to who could do the transcriptions

Presumably the quarterly returns for those weddings performed by (or in the presence of) District Registrars would be treated the same as Births and Deaths and they were certified by the Registrars or by the local Superintendent Registrars.

(BTW for those weddings in early times where the registrar had to be present in who’s Register were they recorded in?)

The Certs issued by either the Local District or the GRO must reflect the type of document sourced for the copy thus I would expect to find that holders of GRO Marriage Certs will (in the fine print) find such words as

"Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a certified copy of a Register of Marriages in the District......"
Or
"Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a(n) (un-certified?) copy of a Register of Marriages in the District...."

And Certs issued by Local Offices from direct transcriptions to contain words such as

"Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a Register of Marriages... etc"

Birth and Death Certs should by my theory contain one of the following statements

"Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a certified copy of a Register of Births (Deaths) …….etc"
Or
"Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a Register of Births (Deaths) ...etc"

Would SKS's indulge me by checking out the fine print of their BMD Certs and post the wordings with the date of ISSUE of the Cert

Thanks

[Guy Etchells]

UK Registrars could not/cannot by law issue certified copies of Marriage Register entries unless the register was/is legally in their possession

In the case of church registers one register stays in the custody of the church until that church closes, or it may when full be transferred to the diocese archive.


Can someone enlighten me as to whether the Transcribed Quarterly Returns of Marriages collected by the Local District Superintendent Registrar from the various holders of the Registers had to be certified by the Transcriber and was there any legal requirement as to who could do the transcriptions

Presumably the quarterly returns for those weddings performed by (or in the presence of) District Registrars would be treated the same as Births and Deaths and they were certified by the Registrars or by the local Superintendent Registrars.

The various Acts of Parliament specify this, for civil marriages the registrar for ecclesiastical marriages-
1836
XXXIII. And be it enacted, That the Rector, Vicar, or Curate of every such Church and Chapel, and every such Registering Officer and Secretary, shall, in the Months of April, July, October, and January respectively, make and deliver to the Superintendent Registrar of the District in which such Church or Chapel may be situated, or which may be assigned by the Registrar General to such Registering Officer or Secretary, on durable Materials, a true Copy certified by him under his Hand of all Entries of marriages in the Register Book kept by him since the last Certificate, the first of such Certificates to be given in the Month of July One thousand eight hundred and thirty-seven, and to contain all the Entries made up to that Time, and if there shall have been no Marriage entered therein since the last Certificate, shall certify the Fact under his Hand, and shall keep the said Marriage Register Books safely until the same shall be filled ; and one Copy of every such Register Book, when filled, shall be delivered to the Superintendent Registrar of the District in which such Church or Chapel may be situated, or which shall have been assigned as aforesaid to such Registering Officer or Secretary, and the other Copy of every such Register Book kept by any such Rector, Vicar, or Curate shall remain in the keeping of such Rector, Vicar, or Curate, and shall be kept by him with the registers of Baptisms and Burials of the Parish or Chapelry within which the Marriages registered therein shall have been solemnized ; and the other Copy of every such Register Book of Marriages among the People called Quakers, and among Persons professing the Jewish Religion respectively, shall remain under the Care of the said People or Persons respectively, to be kept with their other Registers and Records, and shall, for the Purposes of this Act, be still deemed to be in the keeping of the Registering Officer or Secretary for the Time being respectively.
XXXIV. And be it enacted, That every Superintendent Registrar shall, Four Times in every Year, on such Days as shall be therefore named by the Registrar General, send to the Registrar General all the certified Copies of the Registers of Births, Deaths, and Marriages which he shall have so received during the Three Calendar Months next preceding such quarterly Days of Transmission respectively ; and if it shall appear, by Interruption of the regular Progression of Numbers or otherwise, that the Copy of any Part of any Book has not been duly delivered to him, he shall procure, as far as possible, consistently with the Provisions of this Act, that the same may be remedied and supplied ; and every such Superintendent registrar shall be entitled to receive the sum of Two-pence for every Entry in such certified Copies ; and every Superintendent Registrar shall make out an Account Four Times in every Year of the Numbers of Entries in the certified Copies sent to him during the last Quarter, and the certified Copies so sent to the General Registry Office shall be thereafter kept in the said Office in such Order and Manner as the Registrar General, under the Direction of the Secretary of State, shall think fit, so that the same may be most readily seen and examined.

Continued

[Guy Etchells]

[quote=Ken Boyce;124282](BTW for those weddings in early times where the registrar had to be present in who’s Register were they recorded in?)

The Registrar took a copy of his register round the various establishments.


The Certs issued by either the Local District or the GRO must reflect the type of document sourced for the copy thus I would expect to find that holders of GRO Marriage Certs will (in the fine print) find such words as

"Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a certified copy of a Register of Marriages in the District......"
Or
"Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a(n) (un-certified?) copy of a Register of Marriages in the District...."

And Certs issued by Local Offices from direct transcriptions to contain words such as

"Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a Register of Marriages... etc"

Birth and Death Certs should by my theory contain one of the following statements

"Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a certified copy of a Register of Births (Deaths) …….etc"
Or
"Certified to be a true copy of an entry in a Register of Births (Deaths) ...etc"

Would SKS's indulge me by checking out the fine print of their BMD Certs and post the wordings with the date of ISSUE of the Cert

Thanks
Until recently there was no difference in the wording between a local certificate and a GRO certificate
They both stated
Certified Copy of an Entry of Birth (etc) Pursuant to the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1953 (etc)
Some miss out the type of certificate
Certified Copy of an Entry Pursuant to the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1953 (etc)

Modern certificates from the GRO now state
Certified Copy of an Entry of Marriage (etc) Given at the General Register Office.

It should also be noted that only the "short" certificates are certificates rather than certified copies.
I.E.
A short certificate will state
Certificate of Birth
or on the older ones
Certificate of Registry of Birth

Scottish certs have different wording.
Cheers
Guy

[Ken Boyce]

Hi Guy
Thanks for your reply I have acquired a variety of document formats and is something I have been meaning to get to grips with. Looking through them again I see that each follow one of the formats that you describe

Not all sources for BMD Certs are equal and being able to recognise the source of a certificate by it’s content can be useful so for the benefit of those interested in identifying the subtle differences I will describe some the differences in documents I have acquired over the years.
I have in front of me a document issued by the GRO in 1998 for a 1913 birth and across the top placed about the emblem is printed in upper case
Certified Copy of an Entry of Birth Given at the General Register Office
The application Number is on the left side
Below that there is a box containing Registration District XXXXXX
YEAR Birth in the Sub-district of XXXX in the COUNTY OF XXXXXX
(Italics denote written script)
Below that are printed two lines of headings Columns 1 2 to 10
Then come the hand written details
Followed by lines containing these printed words
CERT1FIED to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a Register of Births in the District above mentioned
Given at the GRO under the Seal of the said Office the XXXX day of XXXX 19XX
Nowhere is there a ref to an Act (the back of the document was not copied)

I have a second document issued in 1963 by a District Office for a 1963 birth headed
Certified Copy of an Entry of Birth
Pursuant …………Act, 1953
Then similar to the above document
But followed by the words
I ……Registrar of and Deaths for the Sub-district of…...in the………..
Do hereby certify that this is a true copy of the entry No. xxx in the Register of ………..
Witness My Hand ………………..

I have a third one issued by a District Office in 1945 for a 1936 birth which is similar to the 1998 version except that the weasel wording states
I hereby certify that the above is a true copy of an Entry of Birth in a Register Book in my custody
I have a forth document issued by a District Office in 1936 for a 1936 birth which is none of the above but is a Certificate of Registry of Birth or Stillbirth The weasel wording is the same as that on the 1963 document.
I have a Marriage Cert issued from a District Office for an RC wedding that took place in the presence of the Registrar. The weasel wording is the same as for the 1963 document
In my case there appears a different timeline for the documents used by the District compared to the GRO – may be they had to use up some old stock!
Regards

[Guy Etchells]

I thought you were more concerned if it mentioned the register being a transcript.
Possibly the quickest way of identifying the source is in general-
A certificate from the LRO will be signed by the Registrar or Deputy Registrar
A copy from the CRO will be signed by the Superintendent Registrar
A copy from the GRO will carry the GRO seal or impress
Cheers
Guy

[Ken Boyce]

Hi Guy

You are correct in that I set out to deal with the issue of copies of copies and how to recognise them

My last posting was an attempt to indicate to others less familiar with certificates some of the different wordings that can be found on the documents

Your guide to the signatures is a good one and something I missed

I assume that the Marriage Registers deposited with various record offices around the UK are the returned copies. Am I correct in stating that when complete the duplicate copy becomes the property of the last holder to do with as they please

If that is the case aside from C of E policy what prevents the duplicates from being put to general commercial use or allowing public access by facsimili instead of by transcript.

I haven't yet fully digested your posting of extracts from the Act but on initial reading it does not appear to deal with the issue of disposal of the duplicates. I have the disks of the Chelsea Registers which include if I recall the post 1837 "Official" Marriage Registers up to 1958 and I believe that there are also registers to be found in private or semi-private collections around the world However I don't know if these contain post 1837 sections covered by the various UK Acts (I am obiviously assuming that prior to 1837 the present-day disposal rules did not apply)

There is of course the photographed copies in the hands of the LDS from which one can freely make facsimilis so it would seem that there is no legal impediment to the publishing of the duplicates which of course are identical and I believe generably indistinguishable from the other duplicate

Regards

[hughar]

A very erudite discussion between the pair of you, without a doubt. But I bet that, like me, just about everyone else who has viewed the thread has thought "So what does it all mean, and why does it matter?"

So how about a simple explanation for the benefit of the uninitiated? I'm always keen to learn.

[Guy Etchells]

Yes the "duplicates" are handed down from incumbent to incumbent but he/she does have a set of rules to follow regarding their preservation.
Parochial Registers and Records Measure
The 1978 measure lays out the requirements if the incumbent wishes to keep the registers him/herself rather than deposit them at the diocese archive.

It is of course possible to view either the original registers at the relevant church or diocese archive or on microfilm/fiche.
I have fiche of marriages (in my parish register collection) for various parishes I am interested from 1551 up to 1996.

Church registers are church registers and are subject to church law the UK government cannot (by rule of common law as set out in the Magna Carta which takes precedent over everything else) interfere with the church.

The two registers are of course not identical as any mistake or correction of that mistake is not duplicated on the other register.
Cheers
Guy

[Guy Etchells]

A very erudite discussion between the pair of you, without a doubt. But I bet that, like me, just about everyone else who has viewed the thread has thought "So what does it all mean, and why does it matter?"

So how about a simple explanation for the benefit of the uninitiated? I'm always keen to learn.

Basically it means that one can determine where a certificate has originated.
The origin of a certificate determines the number of chances of errors being made. The less times the "register" has been transcribed the less chance of an error creeping in.
Also with marriage registers only the original registers will contain the signatures of participants.
Cheers
Guy