To The HART Of The Matter

[rayh]

Hart........Benjamin and Matilda.
Back in 1883 Benjamin brought his family to Australia. Benjamin and Matilda were wed in the Great Synagogue Of London, the year was 1875. By 1883 they had 4 children, Pauline, Charles, Joseph, and Sarah.

Benjamin's father was Zalig whose wife at the time was Hannah. Zalig had had another marriage her name was Mary Ann. Both Zalig and Benjamin were Fishmongers.
Matilda's parents were Coleman and Sarah Solomon, They were Furniture Dealers.

We now understand that Benjamin and Zalig's ancestors were Moses who passed away in 1844, his wife Elizabeth, we have no detail on her.
I will |bowdown| to those who can give us any supported information.|banghead|

My very best wishes to you and yours, Ray.

[bwarnerok]

I would imagine you have seen this site:
http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/London/city_gsduke/index.htm
and this one:
http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/engmarr.shtml
and this:
http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/UK/

-b-

[Trish]

Hart........Benjamin and Matilda.
Back in 1883 Benjamin brought his family to Australia. Benjamin and Matilda were wed in the Great Synagogue Of London, the year was 1875. By 1883 they had 4 children, Pauline, Charles, Joseph, and Sarah.

Benjamin's father was Zalig whose wife at the time was Hannah. Zalig had had another marriage her name was Mary Ann. Both Zalig and Benjamin were Fishmongers.
Matilda's parents were Coleman and Sarah Solomon, They were Furniture Dealers.

We now understand that Benjamin and Zalig's ancestors were Moses who passed away in 1844, his wife Elizabeth, we have no detail on her.
I will |bowdown| to those who can give us any supported information.|banghead|

My very best wishes to you and yours, Ray.Ray,

In tracing the family back through the censuses... have you located Zalig on the 1851 census?

I'm wondering because I see a family which matches his [as measured against the 1861 census] in almost every aspect except Zalig's first name:

Have you seen this?

Census: 1851: HO107/1545 Folio 286 Page 3
Address: 101 Petticoat Lane, St Mary Whitechapel, Middlesex
-- Solomon Hart Head Mar 33 Fishmonger [born] Middlesex WhiteChapel
-- Mary Hart Wife Mar 32 [born] do do
-- Mary ??? Servt U 35 General Servant [born] Ireland
-- Moses Hart Son 5 [born] Middlesex WhiteChapel
-- Betsey Hart Daur 4 [born] do do
-- Daniel Hart Son 1 [born] do do
-- Solomon Joel or Ivel Nephew 22 Assistant [born] do do

Have you located Zalig in the 1841 census? Just wondering if he's with his mother...

Regards,
Trish

[rayh]

|bowdown|
Yes I have the family you have listed. Some where between the 51 census and 1975 something happens to Mary Ann. I'd love to know what.
I agree that the family listed in the 51 census has to many similarities not to be the same family. Else where Zalig is called Talig in a census perfection was not a hallmark of the times.
In the second marriage [Hannah Joel] the sibling more that double.

Re the 41 census I don't think I've even seen a 1841 census.

Thanks for your efforts, Ray

[Trish]

|bowdown|
Yes I have the family you have listed. Some where between the 51 census and 1975 something happens to Mary Ann. I'd love to know what.
I agree that the family listed in the 51 census has to many similarities not to be the same family. Else where Zalig is called Talig in a census perfection was not a hallmark of the times.
In the second marriage [Hannah Joel] the sibling more that double.

Re the 41 census I don't think I've even seen a 1841 census.

Thanks for your efforts, RayWell, Ray, I scoured the 1841 census for a likely-looking Moses and Elizabeth, under many variations of Hart, but no go. Very puzzling. Moses, at least, should be there if he lived until 1844.

However, just to complicate things, I did find the following family... note the address:

Census: 1841: HO107/7171 Book 8 Folio 18 Page 3
Address: Petticoat Lane, St. Mary Whitechapel, Middlesex
-- Leah Hart 45 Fishmonger Y [Yes, born in same county]
-- Sarah do 20 Y
-- Solomon do 20 do [Fishmonger] Y
-- Lipman do 15 Y
-- Benjamin do 15 Y
-- Rachel do 14 Y
-- Judah do 10 Y
-- Michael do 7 Y
-- Joseph do 3 Y

Note: Adults' ages were rounded off in the 1841 census.

In 1851, the family has moved but Solomon is no longer with them so, chances are, he's the Solomon I gave you previously, still living on Petticoat Lane.

Census: 1851: HO107/1543 Folio 626 Page 41
Address: Bell Lane, Tower Hamlets, Christchurch Spitalfields, Middlesex
-- Leah Hart Head Widow 56 [born] London
-- Sarah Do Daugh Single 31 [born] Do
-- Rachel Do Do Single 23 [born] Do
-- T [or could be J] Do Son Marr 33 [born] Do
-- Lippsom Do Son 29 [born] Do
-- Joseph Do Do Do 27 [born] Do
-- Benjamin Do Do Do 25 [born] Do
-- John Do Do Do 21 [born] Do
-- Michael Do Do Single 16 [born] Do

Occupations for all: General Dealers

I wonder... could Zelig have also been known as Solomon and could Leah be your Zelig's mother, Elizabeth. Maybe these were middle names? I'm stretching, I know, but it is mystifying that I can't find them otherwise.

By the way, there are at least a couple of death records for Mary Ann Hart which could be yours:
-- Mary Ann Hart 1854 3rd Quarter Whitechapel [Volume 1c Page 343]
-- Mary Ann Hart 1856 1st Quarter Whitechapel [Volume 1c Page 220]

Trish

[Trish]

Ray,

Just to clarify: Zalig's second wife was named Hannah Joel? Do you know when they married?

I have found a marriage record for Zalig Hart with a potential bride named Hannah Myers, in the 3rd quarter of 1870 in London City [Volume 1c Page 198], but not one for Hannah Joel.

Trish

[phillip]

Any relevance? See Doreen Berger The Jewish Victorian. Genealogical information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861-70 Pub 2004

ZALIG HART
Mr and Mrs Z Hart and Mrs M Joseph thanks for condolences for their late lamented wife and mother-36 Westbourne Terrace North and 101 Middlesex St 14.1.1870
Cross references to ELIZABETH HART wife; ELIZABETH HART daughter; MICHAEL JOSEPH son in law.
DEATH- ELIZABETH HART 29.12.1869 beloved wife of Zalig Hart of 36 Westbourne Terrace North and 101 Middlesex St age 53

MARRIAGE
3.2.1869 at the Gt Synagogue Dukes Place ELIZABETH eldest daughter of ZALIG HART of 101 Middlesex St **** Nb 101 Petticoat Lane became Middlesex St.
ELIZABETH married MICHAEL JOSEPH of 36 Westborne Terrace North SECOND SON of the late MOSES JOSEPH formerly of Bath.

The line also includes MOSS VALENTINE brother in law to Michael and SARAH JOSEPH his sister and SARAH ORNSTEIN sister in law.
Sarah is the eldest daughter of Moses Joseph and she was at Princess St Spitalfields - she married 1.3.1865. Moss Valentine was the 3rd son of ABRAHAM VALENTINE

My own paternal lines include 2 Hart lines who married into each other but I have no idea if there is any relationship to your own Hart line.
Phillip

[phillip]

Ray
I should also have added that my paternal line includes Benjamin Hart clothier and slop seller of 3 and 7 Holywell St d circa 1836 m ? he is my gggg grandfather but I know nothing of his siblings. In addition, my ggggg grandfather is Joseph Myers merchant died pre 1841 - his daughter Phoebe Myers married Henry Hart a boot and shoe maker of 90 Leman St. Again, I have no idea about Henry's siblings. My Jacobs line was at 102 Petticoat Lane in the late 1700 and early 1800s- Henry Jacobs my gggg grandfather a glass manufacturer.
You might want to look at my Hart and Jacobs entries on the Jewish Roots link.
Phillip

[phillip]

Ray
I was in contact about a year ago with a researcher who has Zalig on her family tree.
The Zalig family were: Zalig b1813 m Elizabeth Ann b1816 d 1869
Moses b 1847 d 1924; Elizabeth b1848;Daniel b 1850; Benjamin b 1851; Rosetta b 1853; Zuseman b 1855. She also has data on the Hannah Myers marriage.
The researcher is on Genesreunited- there are other Zalig names.
Phillip

[phillip]

Ray,
First of all the name Zalig is likely to be Selig from the German Yiddish meaning 'blessed" OR "holy". It can also be Zeligman/Zelig/Zelik/Seligmann.
Next, Death of Elizabeth Joseph 9 Dec 1893 in Jewish Chronicle- wife of Michael Joseph age 46 and daughter of late Zalig Hart at 48 St Peters Road.
Phillip

Nb see the Jeffrey Maynard Anglo Jewish Miscellanies site for data taken from the Jewish chronicle

[phillip]

Ray
The following may have nothing to do with your Moses Hart line but you will note the area of Petticoat Lane/Middlesex St. In addition, I am particularly interested in discovering whether or not your Hart/Myer lines are linked to me.

From the UK National Archives English Strand 2a see-
MOSES HART AND JOEL HART 17 Petticoat Lane 1824 quill manufacturers
1821 16 Middlesex St Petticoat Lane MOSES AND JOEL HART pen and quill manufacturers
In the London Gazette Archives- 1825 the partnership between Moses and Joel was dissolved.
1n 1837 Moses Hart quill and stationery manufacturer 27 Houndsditch

Also in the London Gazette Archives- 1837 Jacob MEYER of Houndsditch merchant assigned his estate to MOSES HART of Houndsditch Pen and Quill Merchant; Michael Cashmore of Bevis Marks and Thomas Bell
This last record maybe of some importance because my ggggg grandfather was Jacob Myers merchant ( I mistakenly said he was Joseph) and in addition I have Cashmore relatives via my Crawcour line.
Whether or not the above has any connection to your lines remains to be confirmed.
Phillip

[rayh]

`Trish,
Some points on your post.
1/ Mary Ann is there a husband or at least a cemetry mentioned. I could perhaps research a cemetry.

2/ Showing my ignorance you use the word "do", could I ask what that means?

3/ Yes, I believe she was a Joel. I can only say that on net based info.

Ray

[rayh]

Phillip,
Yes, her name it seems was Elizabeth and her husband was Moses.
The condolence notice sound correct as well. Zalig Solomon Hart [1818] one of their sons lived at #32 Westbourne. That seems to answer your other thought of Zalig or Solomon.
There were bootmakers in my family to, but was Henry to early to tell.

Phillip, I would dearly love contact with the GenesUnited researcher if you can find it.
My best to you, Ray.

[phillip]

Ray
This is the data the genes reunited researcher holds on her Zalig lines- she is a MYERS.
Children of Zalig and Elizabeth Ann:
MOSES HART B1847 M MARTHA AARONS 1864-TAILORESS
ELIZABETH HART B1848;DANIEL B 1850;BENJAMIN B1851;ROSETTA B 1853;ZUSEMAN B1855;LIPMAN B1856;ZALIG B 1865

ZUSEMAN MARRIED JULIA PHILLIPS 1875 DAUGHTER OF ISAACS PHILLIPS AND ESTHER. JULIA WAS BORN 1856 WHITECHAPEL
THE CHILDREN OF ZUSEMAN AND JULIA:
MARIE B1882;LILY;ALFRED;HARRY;JOSEPH;DICK;DOLLY B1892;ZALIG B1876;ISAAC B1876;ROSE;POLLY
IN 1901 THE FAMILY ARE AT 106 LONG ACRE

Can you please let me know the main surnames in your lines.
Phillip

[rayh]

Main Surnames in my line.
Hart, Tattersall, Knight, other names of interest to me Sowter, Button.
The latter were on my mothers side.
Hope that helps.
Ray

[phillip]

Ray
Have you checked the Coleman Solomon name on JewishGen UK London traders data base plus London Gazette Archive plus UK 2a English strand National Archives? The reason I ask is because I can see Coleman Solomon names as glass manufacturer/cutter/seller; clothier and fruiterer but not as a furniture dealer. There is a David Solomon who was a furniture broker.
Did you get Coleman's occupation from Benjamin's marriage cert?
Phillip

[rayh]

Thank you very much for taking the time out to research Coleman Solomon for me.
Yes I'm as sure as I can be. Coleman was a furniture dealer. This comes from both Benjamin's wedding certificate and supported by the Beth Din in London.

Best wishes,Ray

[rayh]

Did I reply to this? If not I should have. Yes those people I believe are in my line. Although I can only work off repeated name the way families did.

I tried Danielles email address as you provided regrettably it bounced.
Ray

[Trish]

`Trish,
Some points on your post.
1/ Mary Ann is there a husband or at least a cemetry mentioned. I could perhaps research a cemetry.

2/ Showing my ignorance you use the word "do", could I ask what that means?

3/ Yes, I believe she was a Joel. I can only say that on net based info.

RayRay,

Re your 1/: No, no husband or cemetery mentioned. For any additional information, such as informant, next of kin or cause of death, you would have to purchase the death certificate.

Re your 2/: Do [or "] was often used by enumerators on the censuses. Do is short for ditto which, as used in this context, simply means a repeat of the information on the line immediately above in the same column. For example:

John Doe 25 Married
Jane Doe 25 Do

Hope this helps,
Trish

[rayh]

Trish,
Thank you you must remember I'm just a bloke|snore|and there for a little slow. I did eventually wake up but I had already shown my brilliance.
I'll keep a pin near by and before I ask questions in future I stab myself with it. Just to see if I'm fully awake.

[Trish]

Trish,
Thank you you must remember I'm just a bloke|snore|and there for a little slow. I did eventually wake up but I had already shown my brilliance.
I'll keep a pin near by and before I ask questions in future I stab myself with it. Just to see if I'm fully awake.No, no, there are no wrong questions on this forum. I've been asked the "do" question before. I tend to give literal translations of the census images which can be confusing to people when they see all the dittos -- or dos! Please no stabbing.:eek:

[rayh]

Trish,
Ok, no stabbing, but only because you ask me not to.

[phillip]

Ray
Given your Zalig Hart line is Jewish would it make sense to do things- put a post on the BG Jewish Roots link and also the British Jewry site. I have seen your postings on other sites but would recommend you focus on the Jewish element even if your relatives ' married out'.
Phillip

[rayh]

Phil,
Wise words as usual, I'll take your advice. I do have a greater interest in that line that runs through the Jewish period.
Ray

[John Simmons]

Ray,

Have you looked at the British Jewry Site?

They list both of Coleman Solomons's Marriages

GSM 037/3 1797 [5 Jul] SOLOMON Coleman Kalman son of Gemaliel
marries NATHAN Maria Miriam daughter of Leib Mekiach

and

GSM 124/10 1809 [5 Nov] SOLOMON Coleman Kalman (?) son of Gemaliel
marries LAZARUS (MN) Sarah Tserla (widow of Wolf s. of Jacob P (F?)"K. (Falk? Pollak?) daughter of Moshe

John

[rayh]

Hi John,
That's very interesting, I'm going to have a closer look at it. A quick look suggests this might be little old perhaps a grand father to Coleman, Matilda's father.
Working from the marriage certificate it would seem both fathers were alive at the time of the wedding.
What do you think.
Regards, Ray

[louisa maud]

www.theus.org.uk/the_united_synagogue/burial/our_cemeteries/c-80/willesden_cemetery

This may or not be of interest, hopefully it will be to someone, it is a list of Jewish cemeteries locally to London, easy to follow, just go to "how to find a grave"
Louisa Maud

[rayh]

Many thanks, Louisa Maud.