DATE QUESTION

[Perriss]

I am transcribing parish register burial records from the 1600s, some of the dates have a 1/2 mark after the date so the date reads as 11 and a half. Hope that's clear.

Does anyone know why??

Eileen Goodall

[bwarnerok]

I would guess this would have to do with the crossover between the Julian and Gregorian calendars, although normally you just see the two years (eg: 1624/25). If it was for 1611/1612 then perhaps it just came out 1611/2?

-b-

[jeeb]

Hi Eileen,

Betsy is quite right. Until 1752 Great Britian used the Julian Calander, therefore New year started on Lady Day (25th March). 1st Jan -24th March belonged to the previous year and is signified as such eg 1611/2 for days falling between those dates. This is also why the months literally translate wrongly, Oct/Nov/Dec =8/9/10 because originally March was the first month even though the New Year actually started on the 25th.

Jeremy

[Perriss]

Hi sorry I wasn't clear the date 1/2 mark is not against the year it is more like, sorry I can't do a proper half on here:

1656 Burials

Goody daughter of Will Goody buried on May 81/2

I hope this clarifies what I'm asking about.

Eileen

[bwarnerok]

Hi sorry I wasn't clear the date 1/2 mark is not against the year it is more like, sorry I can't do a proper half on here:

1656 Burials

Goody daughter of Will Goody buried on May 81/2

I hope this clarifies what I'm asking about.

Eileen

That would be a bit confusing.

Since there weren't ever 81 days in May and that would be a very odd way to say nighttime.. maybe she was 8.5 years of age when she died? or perhaps it was an error made in writing it down (what were the 1600's version of typos called?)

What parish are you working on?
Is this the only entry like this or are there more?
Are they in order of occurence in which case the person before & after might shed some light.

betsy

[MarkJ]

Or possibly 1 of 2? Were there two burials at the same time I wonder?

[Peter Goodey]

Goody daughter of Will Goody buried on May 81/2

Hello. That name's got me interested:D

Keep Alt pressed and press 0189 on the numeric keypad to get ½.

Any chance of showing us a scan?

Is there any possibility that the "½" is actually a wonky "th"?

Can you ask the archivist for an opinion?

[Geoffers]

Goody daughter of Will Goody buried on May 81/2


This may be difficult without actually seeing the entries - which parish?

What other dates have this mark written after them?

Does the 8 appear to be written on the same line as the rest of the entry?

Does the lower loop of the '8' appear to descend below the line of writing?

Is there anything written after what you interpret as '81/2' which imay be associated with this entry? For example the actual date of the month?
(I suspect that the 1/2 is may possibly be 'th')

What style of handwriting is used (e.g. is this written in Secretary Hand)?

[jeeb]

Hi Eileen,
If it does not refer to the date there are two other possible reasons but without actually seeing it it is difficult to be certain.
1) It may refer to payment for the burial.
2) It may mean that an affidavit had been brought. During this period it was the law that all bodies must be buried in wool and an affidavit was brought to the church to declare that the law had been adhered to. These affidavits were commonly seen accompaning burials mid 17th century but by early 18th century the law had all but been ignored. Why, if this is the reason, it is being written like 1/2 I have no idea.

Jeremy

[bwarnerok]

Hi Eileen,
If it does not refer to the date there are two other possible reasons but without actually seeing it it is difficult to be certain.
1) It may refer to payment for the burial.
2) It may mean that an affidavit had been brought. During this period it was the law that all bodies must be buried in wool and an affidavit was brought to the church to declare that the law had been adhered to. These affidavits were commonly seen accompaning burials mid 17th century but by early 18th century the law had all but been ignored. Why, if this is the reason, it is being written like 1/2 I have no idea.

Jeremy

Wool? what was that about?
-b-

[Geoffers]

Two Acts of Parliament were passed in 1667 and 1678 requiring that 'no corpse of any person (except those who shall die of the plague) shall be buried in any shirt, shift, sheet or shroud or anything whatsoever, made or mingled with flax, hemp, silk, hair, gold or silver, or in any stuff or thing other than what is made of sheep's wool only.'

It was basically an attempt to support the wool industry.

A person who was a relative of the deceased was required to swear on oath that the burial had taken place in accordance with the Act.

You often find in registers of the later 17th century that the name is recorded of the person buried along with the name of the person making the oath and sometimes the person before whom the oath was made.

The Acts felt into disuse fairly quickly, but were not actually repealed until (1814?) - very rarely you will find a Register where the Vicar was a stickler for the Law and still carried on recording the burial in woollen in the 18th century.

[jeeb]

Hi Eileen,
I have just noticed that your example is for 1656 so the burial in wool cannot be the reason because the law had not been passed that early. Another thought has come to mind. How many years is this 1/2 following burials, are they all in the same handwriting and time span? It may be a way the clerk of the time recorded time of burial, ie 1/2 means morning.

Jeremy

[bwarnerok]

Perhaps it was about her grave? Googled and found this on another parish record:

Digging grave 81/2 feet gravespace L 135 cost was 9 shillings and sixpence

perhaps 81/2 was the appropriate depth?

betsy

[Guy Etchells]

Are you sure it is not the word "day".
In the mid 17th century they used quite a flourish on their handwriting.
Cheers
Guy

[Perriss]

Okay it definitely refers to the date, I did think it might be a wonky th at one point or perhaps an age, but then why would burial registers be in month order and age of person being buried order, that really doesn't make any sense.

Definitely dates, definitely lots of instances not just one and definitely a ½ (thanks for the alt 0189 tip).

Not all of them have the ½ some are like 25½ so they can't be age otherwise people would be living to 2512 years old. So perhaps the only thing I can agree that might be a yes is the morning or afternoon burial. Although no records stating say the same day and then the day and a ½, if you catch my drift. I did scan it although it is pretty dark, best viewed on microfilm because of the light behind them. But I promise you it is definitely a ½.

Sorry upload won't work have tried twice and it says it has failed. Doesn't say why - any suggestions?

[Peter Goodey]

What would totally kill the 'th' suggestion is if there were also examples of 1½, 2½ and 3½.

For the image, it's best to put it on a website (a photo sharing site would do) and give us the URL or use 'Insert Image' in the message

[Perriss]

There are all sorts of dates with the ½:

4½, 5½, 10½, 25½, 30½ and 31½ to name but a few, all definitely in date order. Local helper in library, doesnt have a clue.

Even tried to put it on my website so that you could view it and it says that the file is too big. Any more suggestions?

[MarkJ]

Apart from resizing the image, or cropping it to remove the extra stuff which isn't relevant to the image, not much can be done.
If you can't do it for whatever reason, I am happy to edit the image for you - or post it onto my server as it is. It depends if you can email large attachments or not.

Mark

[Perriss]

Will try cropping it tomorrow. nite nite.

Eileen:cool:

[Perriss]

Okay I have cropped the file and apparently it is still too big to be uploaded on here.

So ...... I have put it on my website http://ukgravestones.mysite.orange.co.uk/ under the heading of 1656 Register, so hopefully you'll be able to make it out.

Answers please on a postcard ........... |banghead|

[Perriss]

Hello. That name's got me interested:D

Keep Alt pressed and press 0189 on the numeric keypad to get ½.

Any chance of showing us a scan?

Is there any possibility that the "½" is actually a wonky "th"?

Can you ask the archivist for an opinion?


Hi Peter,

the entry for that one is:

Goody daughter of Will buried May 11½

Is it just Bucks you are interested in or if there's a certain county/town let me know.

Eileen |hug|

[Peter Goodey]

Goody daughter of Will buried May 11½

Is it just Bucks you are interested in or if there's a certain county/town let me know.

Thanks for the thought,Eileen. I was being a bit of a fraud because I don't actually have any known links with Bucks. If you come across any references in PRs linking Good(e)y with Berks or Oxon, I'd certainly be very interested!

[jeeb]

Hi Eileen,
I'm afraid it still isn't perfectly clear but I would say it is almost certainly 'th', as in 15th.
The letter H was often written with a 'tail' below the line in 17th century documents and this looks plain enough on the entry half way down the first page:- buried June the 15th. Note the entry below where he has actually written July the first, rather than July 1. I have translated a lot of parish registers of a that period over the years and seen many very similar 'th' at the end of dates.

Jeremy

[Perriss]

Thanks for the thought,Eileen. I was being a bit of a fraud because I don't actually have any known links with Bucks. If you come across any references in PRs linking Good(e)y with Berks or Oxon, I'd certainly be very interested!

Hi Peter,

I do have burial records for Berks and possibly Oxon for Goodey. Anyone in particular? Or everyone in particular?

:)

[Peter Goodey]

Hi Peter,

I do have burial records for Berks and possibly Oxon for Goodey. Anyone in particular? Or everyone in particular?

:)

Thanks for the offer. I'll email you.

[Geoffers]

I have put it on my website under the heading of 1656 Register, so hopefully you'll be able to make it out.
Answers please on a postcard ...........

It's 'th' as in 25th. If you invert the image it becomes slightly clearer.

[MarkJ]

I agree - it is "th".
If you look at the context "June the 15" followed by the squiggle, it looks most plausible to be "th".

Mark