Heraldry on tablet to Henry Parry in Worcester Cathedral

[Barbara Griffiths]

Last week I visited Worcester Cathedral in search of the monument to Henry PARRY, Bishop of Worcester 1610-1616. His effigy still exists but it has lost much of the original surround (I have a drawing of the original). It has also been moved but there is a tablet marking its original position. The tablet was erected by a Susan HARTSHORNE and shows the following Coat of Arms.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/im.griffiths/parryfamilyhistory/hp2.jpg

Can anyone identify what families are represented, please?

If anyone has information on who the Susan HARTSHORNE was, I'd be pleased to hear from them as well.

Thanks
Barbara

[geoffpowers]

Henry Parry sounds as if he has Welsh origins ('ap Harri'). I am not an expert on heraldry and cannot begin to identify the quarterings displayed. However, my limited knowledge tells me that armorial bearings displayed on a lozenge are usually attibutable to a female (his mother?). However, it is possible that a lozenge was also used by someone who, as a cleric, was unable to bear (i.e. disqualified from bearing) arms on the battlefield.

I think you need to talk to someone at Worcester Cathedral itself, at Worcestershire County Records Office or National Archives who knows more about the history of Parry's interment in the cathedral and about heraldry.

As Bishop Henry Parry was clearly a man of some considerable importance there may well be references to him (though not actual documents) available via the Access to Archives (A2A) web site.

I cannot help you with Susan Hartshorne - possibly a wife, daughter, married sister of thhink you need to talk to someone at Worcester Cathedral itself, at Worcestershire County Records Office or National Archives who knows more about the history of Parry's interment in the cathedral and about heraldry.

Regards

Geoff

[Fulhamster]

Hiya!
Just a small thought (I know nothing about heraldry!) the arms on the lozenge show pictures of hounds and the heads of deer. Another name for a male deer is a Hart. Perhaps it may be aplay on the family name Hartshorne,or antlers? It probably has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it! But, just a thought!

[Ladkyis]

the hounds look like the ones used for the TALBOT family - but please don't ask me how I know this cos I can't remember

Ann

[Barbara Griffiths]

Thanks for your reply, Geoff. Yes, Henry Parry is reputed to come from a Welsh borderland family (Wormbridge in Herefordshire)

Another researcher has also suggested directly to me that the lozenge shape usually relates to a female so I wonder whether the Arms are actually those of Susan Hartshorne. A pedigree in Hereford library has a Parry family who thought they connected to Henry's (but no-one has found the link). This shows a Sarah PARRY who married John HARRIS. Their daughter Elizabeth HARRIS married John NASH. Elizabeth died and John NASH remarries to Sarah BOURNE. John dies and Sarah then marries someone HARTSHORNE.

Which makes it a rather tenuous link to Henry PARRY!

I shall obviously have to dig a bit more deeply - it is surprising how little information there actually seems to be on him, considering his position.

Regards
Barbara

[Barbara Griffiths]

Thanks, Reg. I've heard of those sorts of Arms ("Canting Arms") where they are a play on the name.

I was going to say "I'll bear your idea in mind" - but I think you've actually given me a major lead. I just did a google search on "canting arms" and Hartshorne and found a website

The colours don't match but the design is the same, which is a good start. Thank you so much!

Regards
Barbara

[Barbara Griffiths]

the hounds look like the ones used for the TALBOT family - but please don't ask me how I know this cos I can't remember

AnnThanks, Ann. I don't know about the TALBOT family itself, but that ties in with the description I have been given of the hounds as "talbots". There seem to be several families who use them in their Arms though so I'll obviously have to do some more research. But it does help to know the correct terms - I hadn't got a clue what they were supposed to be when I first saw the plaque!

Regards
Barbara

[Peggy]

Hi Barbara,

Do we know WHEN the tablet was erected by Susan Hartshorne? Money must have been involved, so perhaps the Cathedral has records that might help to identify her?

[it is surprising how little information there actually seems to be on him, considering his position.]

Indeed. I googled him, and found that he may have been one of the scholars who worked on the King James Bible. But even that seems to be uncertain. There was an abstract of a will, but it gave no clues. You have a pretty mystery here. :)

Peggy

[Peggy]

You may have to make another trip, Barbara. :) Found on Ancestry, in a strange context (from Historical and Genealogical Miscellany: New York and New Jersey, Vol. 3):

"In Tewkesbury Abbey, England, is a memorial window to Lady Susan Hartshorne with the family arms."

If you go, please give my regards to George (of the butt of malmsey fame) & Isabel. <g>

Cheers,

Peggy

[Barbara Griffiths]

Thanks for your reply, Peggy


Do we know WHEN the tablet was erected by Susan Hartshorne? Money must have been involved, so perhaps the Cathedral has records that might help to identify her? The tablet was put up when the effigy was moved, in 1872. There was a lot of restoration at that time so I imagine there must be some records. I'll see what I can find out about that.


Indeed. I googled him, and found that he may have been one of the scholars who worked on the King James Bible. But even that seems to be uncertain. There was an abstract of a will, but it gave no clues. You have a pretty mystery here. :)
The Bible link probably related to Richard Parry, Bishop of St Asaph, who produced a Welsh version in 1620. He and Henry were unrelated to each other but were both born about 1560 and were both Bishops in the early 1600s.

Thanks for your help.
Barbara

[Barbara Griffiths]

You may have to make another trip, Barbara. :) Found on Ancestry, in a strange context (from Historical and Genealogical Miscellany: New York and New Jersey, Vol. 3): ...Many thanks, Peggy. I must have a guide book for Tewkesbury Abbey since we visited some years ago so I'll see if I can find that. Otherwise, yes, looks like another day out! (But I'll avoid the wine!).

Best wishes
Barbara

[Peggy]

[The Bible link probably related to Richard Parry, Bishop of St Asaph, who produced a Welsh version in 1620.]

My eyesight could be better, but when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw, or a Henry from a Richard. Anyway, I was googling "Henry Parry." :)

The reference is to Henry Parry, Dean of Worcester.

Cheers,

Peggy

[Barbara Griffiths]

My eyesight could be better, but when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw, or a Henry from a Richard. Anyway, I was googling "Henry Parry." :) My apologies, Peggy. Richard Parry was the only Parry I had previously come across any reference to, with regard to bible translation.

I have checked in the "Fasti Ecclesiae Anglicanae" to try and clarify the names mentioned on that web site. According to the book/cd, Richard Eedes was Dean of Worcester from 19 June 1587 and died 19 November 1604. He was succeeded by James Montague from 28 December 1604 until 1608 (when Montague became Bishop of Bath and Wells). Montague was succeeded as Dean by Arthur Lake 23 April 1608, and Lake then became Bishop of Bath and Wells 17 October 1616.

Dr Henry Parry was never Dean of Worcester - he was dean of Chester prior to becoming Bishop of Gloucester in 1607, then he became Bishop of Worcester in 1610, remaining there until his death in 1616. Interestingly%terestingly, he succeeded Thomas Ravis as the Bishop of Gloucester (Ravis being one of the original translators) - and Ravis had become the Bishop in 1604, having previously been the dean of Christ Church, Oxford. So it is quite easy to see how all the confusion occurs, if the lists of translators sometimes refer to people by name and other times by position.

Thanks very much for the reference - as I mentioned, despite his position, there seems to be very little information available on Henry. And some is definitely dubious (such as a statement in the Cathedral that he was a bachelor, which certainly doesn't tie in to the Will details!) so I am carefully trying to sort out fact from fiction here.

Best wishes
Barbara

[Peggy]

Hi Barbara,

Henry may not have translated the bible, but he does appear to have had some linguistic skills. <g> It seems that some texts in the Irish language that belonged to him are in a collection at the Bod. And he was a Fellow of Corpus Christi, so perhaps there are other records. There may be a connection to Talbot de Malahide? (So maybe the dogs are Talbot talbots? That trail leads to Tasmania. <BG> ) My browser found the web page indigestible, so I never got a chance to copy the URL. Google: Irish Manuscript Bodleian "Henry Parry" Talbot --- and it should be the only hit.

There is a suggestion of his being related to Edward Parry (?-1650), Bishop of Killaloe, who apparently attended Trinity College Dublin. I'd check him for you on my wonderful Archives CD of "Alumni Dublinensis," but my CD drive is acting up. :( Perhaps this explains my interest in your mystery. I have a distant Talbot connection in Ireland.

Peggy

[Barbara Griffiths]

Thank you very much for your reply, Peggy. That's exactly the sort of reference that I am trying to find with regard to the various Parrys - references which indicate what they owned or did *in their own times* (as opposed to later supposition by people). I shall see what else I can find out about that manuscript "52".

Sorry to hear about your cd drive. As it happens, I have the cd as well, but it doesn't give Edward's parentage. But there is a pedigree containing Edward in Griffith's book of Anglesey and Carnarvonshire families and I have recently uploaded the details onto my website. Henry Parry is supposedly one of the Golden Valley Parrys, although he doesn't appear in any of the published pedigrees. None of the pedigrees I have found so far indicate a link between the two families either - but unfortunately there are numerous unsubstantiated comments about the various Parrys, so it is a matter of checking them all carefully to see what sources they refer to. I shall certainly look into the claimed Irish connection in that note 42.

Best wishes
Barbara

[Barbara Griffiths]

Since some details have been sent to me privately, here’s a summary of the suggestions made so far with regard to the plaque (which seems more likely to relate to the Susan HARTSHORNE, rather than to Henry PARRY himself):

Possible blazoning:-

On a Lozenge
Dexter [i.e. the left as you view image]
1 [top] Vert a chevron between 3 (2:1) talbots passant argent
2 [bottom] Sable, on a chevron (argent) between 3 (2:1) talbots statant argent as many trevoils vert
[middle section]
3 [top] A chief ermines (sable with tails white)
4 [bottom] Argent, a chevron gules, between 3 (2:1) lions sable langued and armed gules
Sinister [i.e. the right as you view image]
5 Azure%2>5 Azure, a chevron between 3 (2:1) stags? faces argent

Other suggestions made:
That 1 and 2 could relate to first and second husband.
That 4 is possibly the BOURNE family
That 5 is possibly a variant of the HARTSHORNE family arms.

Any other comments on the heraldry welcome.
Barbara

[Barbara Griffiths]

(continuing with summary of information)

I also have a lead on the Susan in the 1851 census (with HARTSHORNE possibly mistranscribed):

Clifford Lodge, Clifford Chambers Stratford On Avon, Warwickshire
PRO Reference: HO/107/2074 F: 349 P: 2

Susanna HARTSHOME Head M 71 F Landed Proprietor Shuedley-Worcestershire


FreeBMD also shows a possible death - Jun 1879 Hartshorne Susanna 100 Worcester 6c 173 – which would tie in to her being alive when Worcester cathedral was renovated and the plaque erected.

My thanks to all who contributed. I now have several leads to follow up (but would obviously still welcome any other information).

Barbara