How accurate are the Commonwealth War Graves details?

[Mutley]

Joseph Peter Selby was born 1/3/1927 in Southwark, London.
His parents were Charles and Elizabeth.

He and his father and brothers served in WWII. He did not return.

I have a death certificate of Joseph Selby, born England, died 3.3.1944 age 19 in Italy. Killed in Action. London Irish Rifles, RFN 14581966.

The CWGC lists the parents as Harry and Rebecca Selby of Stoke Newington. Buried at Beach Head War Cemetery, Anzio. Service No. 14581966. Lines up with the death certificate.

But he cannot be mine because the parents are wrong. I cannot find another Joseph Selby.

A Rebecca Selby is a widow in Southwark in the 1901 Census with young children but I think she would be too old to be my Joseph's mother.
I cannot find another Joseph birth other than mine or another Joseph death other than this one.

So is the CWGC correct or do they make mistakes regarding the parents.
(I realise there is a 2 year age difference. he should have been 17 not 19, but many lied about their ages.)

[Jan1954]

As Sunday is Remembrance Day, I hope someone can help you with this
|help|

Maybe we can all lend a hand|grouphug|

Best Wishes|wave|

[ChristineR]

I doubt that they would have a mistake about the parents - these are the next of kin that they would have had dealings with concerning their son's death - the initial telegrams, a memorial plaque was given, grave details, photos of the grave/memorial, and medals. (at least this is what happened in Australia).

Christine

[Procat]

Hi Mutley,

The Army Roll of Honour - World War II CD (which has some additional information to the CWGC) records this:

Joseph Selby, Rifleman, Number 14581966

Branch Infantry, London Irish Rifles

Born London E, Residence London N

Died 3 March 1944, Italy

There is only the one Joseph Selby recorded.

[Mutley]

Thanks Christine, I am sure you are right and I agree.
But I cannot find another death for my Joseph or the birth of Rebecca and Harry's Joseph.
Most odd..................:confused:

[Geoffers]

Joseph Peter Selby was born 1/3/1927 in Southwark, London. His parents were Charles and Elizabeth.
.......The CWGC lists the parents as Harry and Rebecca Selby of Stoke Newington. Buried at Beach Head War Cemetery, Anzio. Service No. 14581966. Lines up with the death certificate.....But he cannot be mine because the parents are wrong.


The CWGC do may the odd mistake - they are only as good as the information they recieve. In the past when i have contacted them, they have been very helpful - it may be worthwhile droppin g them a line to explain your dilemma.

I don't suppose Joseph's parents were Charles Henry and Rebecca Elizabeth by any chance????

[SBSFamilyhistory]

As Sunday is Remembrance Day, I hope someone can help you with this
|help|

Maybe we can all lend a hand|grouphug|

Best Wishes|wave|

sorry Jan but that is next Sunday 11/11

[Mutley]

Thanks Doug,
The additional bit you have given me is:
Born London E. Residence London N.

My Joseph was born and lived all his life in Zoar Street, Southwark. Now I would put that at London S.

The CWGC says Rebecca and Harry are of Stoke Newington and I think that is London N. Which means the fellow who died in Anzio ain't mine!!

So where did mine die? Because as you say, it does not mention another one.
I cannot find a 1925 East London birth for another Joseph.:confused:

[Mutley]

Oh Geoffers, wouldn't that have solved the mystery.

Unfortunately, mine were Charles Patrick and Elizabeth Maud and as both had an Irish parent the London Irish Rifles also fits. I do not have a Henry or Rebecca in my line at all.

The only Rebecca I found was the 1901 census one and she had a Newington visitor and a son born in Ireland. RG13; Piece: 361; Folio: 53; Page: 33
Maybe I can find her in 1891 to see if she was married to a Henry.

And as you say a letter to CWGC seems to be a good idea...

[MarkJ]

Just a thought Mutley, but if he died of injuries sustained during the war, but back in the UK for example, he may not be listed. One of my wifes great Uncles was injured in WW1 in France and transferred back to the UK where he died of his wounds. He is not listed on the CWGC site and we found his death recorded in the usual way via the BMD records. His brother was killed in action and is listed on the CWGC website.
As there are no other Joseph Selbys mentioned, is it possible he was transferred and died as a result of injuries - perhaps in hospital in the UK or elsewhere?

Mark

[Procat]

Hi Mutley,

What is the source for the information that he died in WWII?

Is it possible that it is incorrect?

[Mutley]

Hi Mark and Doug.

In actual fact, I have just realised that I do not have a true source of his death. Just his birth certificate (1927)

He was my uncle. I remember my father who was the oldest brother (b. 1923) saying that he did not return from the war. None of the younger siblings remembered him and they are all dead now.

If it was not for the birth certificate I would almost say he did not exist. No one ever spoke of him, he and my dad did not get on.

I have just looked on Ancestry and cannot see a death for a Joseph at any time that was born London 1927.

Maybe he just went AWOL, emigrated and disappeared, not thought of that......

[Procat]

Hi Mutley,

On Genes Reunited there are two people searching for your man.

[Jan1954]

sorry Jan but that is next Sunday 11/11

Sorry - CRAFT moment...

[Mutley]

Hello Doug,
Thank you.
Both the Genes Reunited searchers are cousins and they cannot find him either.

I was hoping the forum members could give me a few ideas that we had not thought of.:) It's one of the names I keep picking up again and again just to see if there is something I've missed. I suppose we all have them.

[Neil Wilson]

As there are no other Joseph Selbys mentioned, is it possible he was transferred and died as a result of injuries - perhaps in hospital in the UK or elsewhere?

MarkI was under the impression that if someone died of their injuries, they would still be listed on CWGC site. CWGC lists 15 in my local cemetery, although only about 8 have the 'proper' headstone, the others are listed on their families headstones.
Then there is always the incorrect spellings to weed out, or just listed by the initial rather than name.
I found 'findmypast.com' sometimes had more information than the CWGC for the same person.
Drop them an email, might take them a while at this time of year to answer it, but they will do.
Good Luck on this Mutley

[Mutley]

Thanks,
I will give the CWGC time to get over the next couple of weeks and as you suggest email them.

I cannot find a marriage of Harry and Rebecca either. I thought if I could establish the existence of the other parents it would settle the matter but no luck.

[tommy166]

So I suppose it's quite feasible that he is still alive somewhere.

Without knowing where he served it's difficult to know if he might have been taken prisoner of war. I'm not sure if all those that died in camps were recorded.

[MarkJ]

I was under the impression that if someone died of their injuries, they would still be listed on CWGC site. CWGC lists 15 in my local cemetery, although only about 8 have the 'proper' headstone, the others are listed on their families headstones.
Then there is always the incorrect spellings to weed out, or just listed by the initial rather than name.
I found 'findmypast.com' sometimes had more information than the CWGC for the same person.
Drop them an email, might take them a while at this time of year to answer it, but they will do.
Good Luck on this Mutley

Perhaps the case for some records Neil, but in the case of my wifes great uncle, he died a few weeks after being transported home. It could be that there is a cut off period for injuries leading to death for those people to be on the CWGC site? Or possibly the family never informed the powers that be of his demise due to injuries? From information supplied by his sister, he spent a period at home, being nursed by his family before passing away. He is not listed, although his brother is - but he was KIA.

Mark

[Neil Wilson]

Perhaps the case for some records Neil, but in the case of my wifes great uncle, he died a few weeks after being transported home. It could be that there is a cut off period for injuries leading to death for those people to be on the CWGC site? Or possibly the family never informed the powers that be of his demise due to injuries? From information supplied by his sister, he spent a period at home, being nursed by his family before passing away. He is not listed, although his brother is - but he was KIA.

MarkThere is another possibility, he died after being discharged from the army, therefore as he wasn't serving he isn't on CWGC list. Would this explain things?

[MarkJ]

It would. That is certainly a possibility - his injuries were severe enough that he would not have been able to recover and return to the army. I hadn't thought of that scenario....

Mark

[joette]

My Great-Uncle was shot in the back whilst serving as a very young soldier in Ireland in 1916.He was paralysed & sufferred Renal Failure as a result.
It took him three years to die. 1919. He was buried in a CWG in Kilbowie Cemetery Clydebank.He had a full militray funeral including the draped gun carriage pulled by four horses that his Mother had dreamt of ten years before but that's another tale.

He is there on the CWGC site.As is my other Great-Uncle but I couldn't locate him as they had mispelled his surname Waddel not Waddell- as simple as that.

[HelenVSmith]

Hi

My grandfather died in WW2 in a training accident in Scotland and he is listed on the Commonwealth War Graves site.

Regards
Helen

[Procat]

My understanding is that an ex-service person would be included on the CWGC if their death could be proven to be as a result of injuries they received whilst serving.

Of course, for this to occur the CWGC would need to be notified of the death and evidence provided (such as the Death Certificate) linking the cause of death to the injuries received.

[MarkJ]

My understanding is that an ex-service person would be included on the CWGC if their death could be proven to be as a result of injuries they received whilst serving.

Of course, for this to occur the CWGC would need to be notified of the death and evidence provided (such as the Death Certificate) linking the cause of death to the injuries received.

Many thanks for that information - I have ordered the death certificate for him this evening (not sure where the original is). Depending on what that states, I guess I may have to also acquire his discharge information as well. He died of gangrene as a result of his injuries - not very pleasant.
I am sure his sister (my wifes grandmother) would have liked to have his sacrifice added to the CWGC lists. The other brother, as I mentioned, is on the site and his nephew was thrilled when I sent him the details of the Uncle whom he was named after.

Many thanks once again to all who have prompted me to chase up this record.

Mark

[Procat]

Hi Mark,

There is a site:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php? (The Great War Forum)

One of the members of the site is a gentleman called Terry Denham who has arranged for many soldiers missed by the CWGC to be added to their lists. Members of the forum usually provide all the evidence to support their case to Terry (via a posting on the forum) who sets the wheels in motion. Though this is a WWI forum the moderator has recently given permission for WWII omissions to be included in the posts.

The site is tightly run however when it comes to posting. You need to be a member and the procedure normally takes about 24 hours to prevent spammers.

[MarkJ]

Thanks again Doug. I have come across the site you mention before whilst researching, so I know it is a useful site.
My entry would be WW1 so that is ideal. Once the certificate arrives I can hopefully get things moving.
Shame I didn't get it sorted in time for Remembrance Day 2007.

Mark

[SBSFamilyhistory]

My Grandfather was a civilian and he dies on duty as a ARP and he is listed in the CWGC.

[reklaw]

I believe that errors have crept into CWGC records over the years, and I think you should raise the issue with them, one possibility is a simple typo... have you tried searching names close to the one you are looking for?
You can also take a look at this website http://www.cwgc.co.uk/
"Campaigners for war grave commemorations" and read what they have to say.
Good luck in your quest...

[Mutley]

There obviously are errors then.....

"There are an estimated 45,000 of "The Fallen" missing from the Commission's registers and memorials throughout the world.

Compounding this unfortunate situation, the records of those who the Commission do commemorate are marred by a very large number of errors in their name, rank, unit, date of death, age and next of kin. It is obvious that many errors have been in place since the Commission's founding, but in more recent years, the matter has been further complicated by the defective OCR (Optical Character Recognition) computer scanning of its records, resulting in a corrupted electronic database."

Thanks Reklaw