SMITH, Castle Camps

[Jan1954]

Peter Smith b 1866 in Bartlow Hamlet, Essex, married Elizabeth Ives b abt 1867, Castle Camps, Cambridgeshire at All Saints Church, Castle Camps, 22 Oct 1887.

In 1891, they were living at Whitens Mere Farm, Castle Camps, where Peter was an Ag Lab aged 25 and Elizabeth (aka Betsy) was looking after the boys, Herbert William (3) and Arthur (1), and aged 23.

Fast forward 10 years...

1901 has the family plus Elsie (9), Emily (7) and Ethel (5) living in Theydon Garnon, Essex, where Peter is a stud groom. (RG 13/1641 page 8)

No problem there, then.

Except...

Betsy/Elizabeth (aged 34) is recorded as Julia (aaargh!!)

I can find no death for Betsy/Elizabeth and no additional marriage for Peter. However, we are talking "Smith" here...

Coincidentally, Peter had a sister Emma Julia (known as Julia) b 1871 in Bartlow Hamlet, Essex but I've discounted her through other means.

Any bright ideas out there?

Thank you,

Jan

PS Can anyone tell me why I'm unable to access my smilies or bold/italic etc at the top of the message? Ta.

[Geoffers]

Some thoughts

She could actually have been born Julia and was just known as
Elizabeth/Betsy by her family

She was born/baptised Julia Elizabeth and used different forenames at different times.

Can you find a female IVES born in Cambridgeshire about the right time with either the forenames Elizabeth and/or Julia?
(Try looking at the GRO index for Sept 1867 in Linton RD!)

Can you locate her in the 1871 census - if so how is she recorded?

[Jan1954]

Hello Geoffers,

Thanks for the suggestions. However, I have Elizabeth's baptism, and she was baptised as just that - Elizabeth. Pet name for her was Betsey - not a Julia to be seen.

I know that this is she as, coincidentally, Peter's father Pharaoh (b 1837) had a young brother George (b 1864) who married Elizabeth's sister Fanny. Talk about keeping it in the family...

Ho, hum...

Thanks again,

Jan

[Geoffers]

I have Elizabeth's baptism, and she was baptised as just that - Elizabeth. Pet name for her was Betsey - not a Julia to be seen.

Out of interest, when was the baptism and was she the only one of her family baptised at this time? Trying to pick out the muddle of all the Eliza/Elizabeth/Betsys, Julias and Fannys born in Castle Camps - who was her father and is it the same name in her marriage certificate and in her baptism?

[Jan1954]

Hello Geoffers,

Elizabeth was baptised 27 Oct 1867 at All Saints Church, Castle Camps and was the only one of her family to be baptised on that date. Her 10 siblings were all baptised close to when they were born as well.

Jan

[Jan1954]

Geoffers - you may have something!

I have never been able to find the registration of Elizabeth's birth but have just found the following:

Births Sep 1867
Ives Julia Linton 3b 497

In all the censuses (apart from 1901) she is recorded as either Elizabeth or Betsey -not even a sniff of a Julia - and Julia is not a name that featured in her baptism at all.

A certificate order may well be on the cards, here.

However, this just throws up another mystery - WHY BOTH JULIA AND ELIZABETH?????

Thanks!

Jan
(off to lie down in a darkened room with a large vodka...)

[Geoffers]

If you look at the 1861 census there is another Julia Ives aged 9 (with a sister called Eliza)- quite possibly a cousin after whom she was named - or perhaps both Julias were named after someone of the same name from an earlier generation.

Perhaps Julia's birth was registered, but come her baptism her parents wanted to name her after a relative who had recently died?

As mentioned - is the father in Elizabeth/Betsy's baptism the same as in Elizabeth/Betsy's marriage certificate? - Does this then tie in with details in Julia's birth certifiacte?

[Jan1954]

The father for both Elizabeth's baptism and marriage are the same.

Julia was the daughter of William and Catherine, whilst Elizabeth was the daughter of Aaron and Ann. Believe it or not, although the surname was Ives, there is no direct relationship between them unless you go back about 3 further generations!

I think that your suggestion of Julia being the registration name but Elizabeth being the preferred name is the most likely. If I get the certifiacte, I might find that one parent registered the birth as one name probably against the wishes of the other and the girl was stuck with it. However, she was married as Elizabeth and not Julia. This was obtained from the parish records. The marriage certificate wouldn't differ, would it?

Jan

[Geoffers]

Julia was the daughter of William and Catherine, whilst Elizabeth was the daughter of Aaron and Ann. Believe it or not, although the surname was Ives, there is no direct relationship between them unless you go back about 3 further generations!

I believe it, forenames often crop up in families over a long period of time, but it is only the less common names that stand out.


I think that your suggestion of Julia being the registration name but Elizabeth being the preferred name is the most likely. If I get the certifiacte, I might find that one parent registered the birth as one name probably against the wishes of the other and the girl was stuck with it.

I normally like to suggest more definite evidence before recommonding getting a certificate, but I think in these cicumstances it is warranted.



This was obtained from the parish records. The marriage certificate wouldn't differ, would it?

They should be identical, the only difference I have encountered up to now is between the name recorded by a Vicar and the name signed by the bride or groom. If they married by banns, there is sometimes a difference with the banns register.

A passing thought, do the birth certificates of their children all record Elizabeth/Betsy rather than Julia?

Do I take it that she is shown as Elizabeth/Betsy in the 1871 census?

[Jan1954]

A passing thought, do the birth certificates of their children all record Elizabeth/Betsy rather than Julia?

Yes, each child is that of Peter and Elizabeth


Do I take it that she is shown as Elizabeth/Betsy in the 1871 census?

She's Elizabeth or Betsey in all of the censuses - apart from 1901, the mystery one!

I think that this little mystery may be put on a back burner for now. I may get an answer if I find her death. Haven't looked for that yet - needle in haystack time, methinks!

Thanks for your help,

Jan