Public house in Birmingham help please.

[SBSFamilyhistory]

My great grandfather was a Tavern Manager in 1901, the census shows the address as 128 Moseley street, Birmingham. This is still a pub, now the Hen and Chicken, not the sort of name I think it would have been called in 1901.

Any ideas how I start to get information about the name of the pub etc. family legend, I know I can hear you all sigh, says he died under a beer barrel. Sounds interesting but I don't know if this is true.


If there is anyone how is from Brum there is a chance, I know not very high, that they will know of the pub in question.

His name was William Henry Burrows, and no I am not expecting anyone to have known him, given I think he died in 1901.

thanks in anticiapation

Sue

[MarkJ]

Seems it is also called The Brewers Arms now.
It may be worth attempting to find out the brewery which owns the pub if it is a managed house - they usually keep records which may help, although of course pubs seem to change hands frequently.

[hughar]

According to a 1928-9 trade directory, it was called the Hen and Chickens then.

[jeeb]

Hi Sue,
His death is registered soon after the 1901 census was taken and as he was only 45 there is a good chance his death could have been accidental. If you send for his death certificate the cause of death should be given and will hopefully put that rumour to bed one way or another. Personally I think a pub manager is quite likely to have met his death under a beer barrel!

William Henry Burrows aged 45. Apr/Jun 1901 Vol 6c Page 277

Cheers Jeremy

[SBSFamilyhistory]

Hi Sue,
His death is registered soon after the 1901 census was taken and as he was only 45 there is a good chance his death could have been accidental. If you send for his death certificate the cause of death should be given and will hopefully put that rumour to bed one way or another. Personally I think a pub manager is quite likely to have met his death under a beer barrel!

William Henry Burrows aged 45. Apr/Jun 1901 Vol 6c Page 277

Cheers Jeremy

my grandfather, Joseph Henry was teetotal as a result. I cannot wait unti the 1911 census is available to see what happened to Elizabeth. The only one thing that concerns me is that my grandfather would have only been about tweleve when the 1901 census was completed and he does not show!

[jeeb]

my grandfather, Joseph Henry was teetotal as a result. I cannot wait unti the 1911 census is available to see what happened to Elizabeth. The only one thing that concerns me is that my grandfather would have only been about tweleve when the 1901 census was completed and he does not show!

Hi Sue,
There may be a problem here then. There is another William Henry Burrows, not a publican also in Birmingham, he has a wife Betsy (Elizabeth) and a son Joseph Henry born 1889 on 1891 & 1901 censuses.

Jeremy

[SBSFamilyhistory]

Hi Sue,
There may be a problem here then. There is another William Henry Burrows, not a publican also in Birmingham, he has a wife Betsy (Elizabeth) and a son Joseph Henry born 1889 on 1891 & 1901 censuses.

Jeremy

perhaps I will have to get my grandfathers birth certificate, if I can get the details to see if I can trace the address in 1889. The changces of them moving before the 1891 cenus is slim... oh well as they say lets wait and see. I will also see if I have anyone of Genes reunited who can help me with this. I will post more information when/if I get any.

Also as you say the occupation is incorrect. if the birth cert for Joseph or death cert for William shows nothing then I guess I will have to wait and see what the 1911 census show us... it's only three years after all!

[jeeb]

Hi Sue,
There are two Joseph Henry Burrows born within reasonable time scale.

Joseph Henry Burrows Jul/Sept 1888 West Bromwich vol 6b page 742

Joseph Henry Burrows Jan/Mar 1893 Birmingham vol 6d page 77


Do you know whether your grandfather had any siblings, if so what are their names?


Jeremy

[SBSFamilyhistory]

Hi Sue,

Do you know whether your grandfather had any siblings, if so what are their names?


Jeremy

sorry but given my grandfather died 20 years before I was born who knows? I will ask those who may or may not know.. lol speak soon

[jeeb]

sorry but given my grandfather died 20 years before I was born who knows? I will ask those who may or may not know.. lol speak soon

They would be your mother or father's uncles & aunts. Did you never hear mention of any?

Jeremy

[SBSFamilyhistory]

Yes, I know they would have been my fathers aunts/uncles but my family is complicated.

My father only ever mentioned is Auntie Amy and that was from his mothers side.

I never met any of his family. I could walk past them in the street or even talk to them and not be any the wiser. He told his sister to leave his house in the early 1950's and not to come back, which she did. They never saw each other again. I don't even know if she knew I exsisted. Frances died in 1993, I only know this from my family history searches, Dad did not know this, and he died in 2001.

So not much chance of finding out via word of mouth. That is why my search has been difficult

[SBSFamilyhistory]

oh yes, just thought an added complication.

he father was also William H Burrows, 1834 and his mothers name was Elizabeth, nee Luckett, 1838!

[jeeb]

Hi Sue,
What was your grandmother's maiden name, ie your father's mother? When was your father born and what was his name?

Jeremy

[SBSFamilyhistory]

okay

my paternal grandmother was Elsie Brownley (before she was married) but that has nothing to do with this search.

also my Dads name was Joseph Lesie Burrows

I am looking at my Grandad's parents

[jeeb]

okay

my paternal grandmother was Elsie Brownley (before she was married) but that has nothing to do with this search.

also my Dads name was Joseph Lesie Burrows

I am looking at my Grandad's parents

Hi Sue,
This has everything to do with the search. We are trying to establish who your Grandfather's parents were because the 1901 census was inconclusive, ie Joseph, your grandfather was not living with the William Henry Burrows, publican. There was however another Joseph, the right age and son of a different William Henry Burrows.
I need information from your grandparent's marriage to help establish the correct one. I have searched for a marriage between Joseph Burrows & Elsie Brownley between 1912 & 1929 without success.
According to your father's age at death he was born in 1928. Do you have your grandparents marriage certificate or know when the marriage took place?

Jeremy

[SBSFamilyhistory]

they married 17/4/1911. Elsie was pregnant her daughter was born 3/9/1911.

Sorry but it says William Henry Burrows was a metal roller. Also my grandparents had the same address Heath Street.

They married in St Cuthberts Chuch somewhere in Birmingham.

the witnesses were Hebert Brownley nee Byrd and Amy Brownley.

his family are not on the certificate

[jeeb]

Hi Sue,
I know you think I am asking you a lot of questions but that I'm sorry to say is because I think you are tracing the wrong line. I am fairly certain the publican in 1901 is not your great grandfather.

I think that this is your Great grandfather and your Grandfather in 1891 & 1901.

1891
1 Exeter square Harborne
William H Burrows 31 Furnaceman-metal born Birmingham
Betsy wife 29 born Birmingham
Joseph H son 2 born Langley Worcs
Robert son 1 born Smethwick

1901
82 shireland rd Smethwick
William Hy Burrows 41 Mill Lab. born Birmingham
Betsy wife 38 born Birmingham
Joseph son 12 born Birmingham
Robert son 10 born Smethwick
Emily May dau 8 born Smethwick
William son 6 born Smethwick
Elsie dau 3 born Smethwick
Ada dau 1 born Smethwick.

What do you think?

Jeremy

[jeeb]

Sue,
These are the certificate refs

Marriage William Henry Burrows & Betsy Lowe Apr/Jun 1884 west Bromwich vol 6b page 1002

Birth Joseph Henry Burrows Jul/Sept 1888 West Bromwich vol 8a page 267


Jeremy

[jeeb]

Hi Sue.
The William Henry I have found for you in 1891/1901 gives him a birth year of 1860. The publican on the census and at death has a birth year of 1855/6. The 1861 census shows William Burrows age 1 :-

3 Court, Peel Street, All Saints, Birmingham,
William H Burrows 21 *Metal Roller born Birmingham
Elizabeth wife 23 born South Wales
John son 3 born Abergavenny
William son 1 born Birmingham

*Look at the father's occupation.

This is the marriage reg of the above couple:-

William Henry Burrows & Elizabeth Ann Bartle Oct/Dec 1857 Neath, Wales vol 11a page 755


Seeing I have totally demolished your tree I had better leave it awhile until you can digest it. Hope you can follow it all.
Jeremy

[SBSFamilyhistory]

thanks for taking all the time to help me. I would rather you do that than me have wrong information.

umm still leave the question of who was the publican. Mind I have just had another thought, my father always thought his mothers maiden name was Byrd! but that was his grandmothers maiden name perhaps it was something to do with her relations. well just have to keep on looking.

Jeremy thanks once again.

Sue

[jeeb]

thanks for taking all the time to help me. I would rather you do that than me have wrong information.

umm still leave the question of who was the publican. Mind I have just had another thought, my father always thought his mothers maiden name was Byrd! but that was his grandmothers maiden name perhaps it was something to do with her relations. well just have to keep on looking.

Jeremy thanks once again.

Sue

Hi Sue,
I cannot quite follow you now. You say that your father thought his mother's maiden name was Byrd but you told me in an earlier thread his mother was Elsie Brownley which I have confirmed by checking his birth registration in 1928. Can I ask you what makes you think the publican was your Grandfather in the first place, was it simply because he was named William Henry Burrows and a publican? Have you jumped to a conclusion because of family myth? The publican only had daughters as far as I can find and he certainly doesnt have a son Joseph in either 1891 nor 1901 censuses.
From the information you have supplied about your father the line I have given you follows through. The publican,s details do not fit in with the information you have supplied. If you need further help please ask.

Jeremy

[SBSFamilyhistory]

Sorry, yes my grandmother's name was Elsie Brownley and his grandmother's name was Frances Brownley nee Byrd I am wondering if in his old age his memory was fading. also his mother died in 1948 and he had no contact with any of his family after the early 50's.


It is family legend but it would to me be an odd thing to say that my great gardfather died under a beer barrel of alcoholic poisoning if it wasn't true.

[jeeb]

Sorry, yes my grandmother's name was Elsie Brownley and his grandmother's name was Frances Brownley nee Byrd I am wondering if in his old age his memory was fading. also his mother died in 1948 and he had no contact with any of his family after the early 50's.


It is family legend but it would to me be an odd thing to say that my great gardfather died under a beer barrel of alcoholic poisoning if it wasn't true.

Hi Sue,
Now this conjures up a different image. In your original thread you said your Gt Grandfather died under a beer barrel so I assumed that if he was a publican the beer barrel fell on him. To say he died under a beer barrel of alcholic poisoning is a very different thing and suggests he was a heavy drinker and probably always drunk. This could certainly account for his son being tee total. If he died by the second method then he is far less likely to have been a publican but far more likely to have been an ordinary working man constantly in the pub and his death was caused by a 'beer barrel' literally speaking. Have you any idea what year he died? I know you said originally 1901 but I am fairly certain that is the publican.

Jeremy

[SBSFamilyhistory]

okay

Family legend is that my great grandfather (GG) could not be found one morning, his wife Elizabeth, decided to get the only member of staff to go and "see to" the cellar and get the bottles for the bar as she did not like to go down there because of the chances of seeing a rat. He went down there and found my GG dead with the tap to the barrel open!

But if he was a heavy drinker or if he died after an accident tapping a barrel hence the amount of alcohol in his system when he died, nobody will ever know.

Also it shows you cannot presume anything, I have been taught this time and time again. I was being tactful when I said he died under a beer barrel! you never know I may have relatives on here who may not know who the *** I am let alone the true reason why their XX(family relative) died. lol

the year of death was gained from information gleemed from other threads on BG but may relate to the publican, who you have almost certainly proved is not GG

why did I think he died in 1901. well the marrigae cert I had for my grandparents came from an envelope, sealed and signed 1941 addressed to my father on which it said Frances must never see the content, found amongst my fathers things when he died. the certificate had been torn and taped back together and the whole of the end section was missing. It would appear that is was never opened. My mum was very surprised when she saw it. Not all of the pieces were in the correct place, I learnt this when I obtained a new copy of the certificate recently. This also explains why I had the wrong occupation for GG, because it was that section that wa missing for both GG's in turns out it was Henry Brownley, who was dead, my grandmothers father. lol I can hear you think gosh not another Henry!

but how's this. Both my grandfathers and my father were called Joseph, so all the men on my parents marriage certificate are called Joseph. sorry but I digress.... lol

once again thanks for all you help.

[loisand]

This William Henry Burrows is my gg grandfathers son, so it was interesting to read about the way he died. What is also weird is that your father is Joseph Leslie Burrows and my grandfather is Leslie George Burrows |angel|

[loisand]

The Elizabeth Ann Bartle, born Taibach, Glamorgan 1838 married William Henry Burrows 1857, died 20 March 1889 and is interred in Handsworth Old Church, West Midlands, she is my gg grandmother |angel|

[SBSFamilyhistory]

The Elizabeth Ann Bartle, born Taibach, Glamorgan 1838 married William Henry Burrows 1857, died 20 March 1889 and is interred in Handsworth Old Church, West Midlands, she is my gg grandmother |angel|


so it would appear we are related Elizabeth Ann Bartle is also my gg grandmother. which of their children are you related to by great grandfather was also called William he married an Elizabeth Lowe. etc etc

I have had a strange thought, but will send you a personal message rather than leave open for public view.

[Maximilian]

128 Moseley Street, Birmingham, is still a pub, now the Hen and Chickens, not the sort of name I think it would have been called in 1901.

So far as I know, Hen & Chickens is the original name, and it is certainly the sort of name a pub would have had in 1901, unlike the nonsense names imposed these days.


Family legend says he died under a beer barrel. Sounds interesting, but I don't know if this is true.

The most likely way a publican could die under a beer barrel has to do with the method of delivery. Barrels were, and I believe sometimes still are, delivered by rolling them from the pavement down a slope leading to the cellar. One can imagine carelessness between the deliverer at the top and the publican at the bottom resulting in a barrel catching the publican unawares, causing his death literally under a barrel. A full wooden beer barrel would have been very heavy - and unmanageable when out of control.

I cannot help with the fascinatingly complicated genealogy, but if the publican was indeed the ancestor of anyone involved in the thread, this may help.