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Wilkes_ml
08-09-2007, 12:46 PM
Can anyone help locate the birth of Isabella Bremner nee Turner please?

The information I have is:

b. 1835-1836 ( from death entry - father's surname Turner, mothers maiden surname McDonald - though informant was grandson so maybe not accurate)
1901 census: aged 67 so born 1833-1834 Glenlivet, Banffshire
1891 census: aged 56 so born 1834-1835 Inveravon, Banffshire
1881 census: aged 47 so born 1833-1834 Inveravon, Banffshire
1871 census aged 37 so born 1833-1834 Inveravon, Banffshire
1861 census aged 27 so born 1833-1834 Inveravon, Banffshire

Birth of second child in 1855: aged 22 so born 1833-1834

Isabella Turner married John Bremner at Inveravon in 1853 and was of the parish of Inveravon, residing at Clashnoir.

However a search of the OPR Birth indexes at Scotland's People does not come up with any matches.

A search of the 1851 census gives one Isabela Turner aged 18, daughter of James Turner (widow) a shepherd. In 1841 James only has one child living with him: William aged 11. However, a search of wills shows that James died 1857 (Farmer at Craighead Morage, Inveravon) followed by Isabella (daughter of James Turner, Farmer at Morange, Inveravon) in 1861. William also appears to have died in 1861. So this Isabella Turner can not be my ancestor who married John Bremner.

So, I did wonder whether Isabella had been born illigitimate and registered under her mother's maiden name of McDonald. In Inveravon in 1841 there is an Isabella McDonald aged 5, living with Isabella Green (aged 45). But Isabella Green had married Lewis McDonald in 1833 ( Scottish women often used their maiden surname in census which can be a bit confusing!) And Isabel McDonald was born 19th Jan 1834, daughter of Lewis McDonald and Isabel Green. So this Isabel wasn't illigitimate. So again, this one doesn't fit.

I also can't find a McDonald/Turner marriage.

Are there any other records, maybe non-conformist that are not on Scotland's People? I did read on GenUki that Glenlivet was mainly Catholic - so maybe the Turner family were Catholic. Any ideas where these records may be?

Thanks

Arcot
14-10-2009, 1:38 PM
Just got back from Glenlivet.My Turners are as follows ;Isabella Turner b1767 d1835 (nee McPherson )Married John Turner b1776. they had 6 chidren Ann John James Elizabeth and Isabella b1815 (Think she had a son James Stuart b appx 1841) and she did have (got b cert) William Stuart b1843 On the cert it says the father was William Stuart b1817 Blacksmith , cant as yet find a marriage cert !.William b1843 married Ann Grant and had 5 children,they lived in Chapletown.( appx 1 )mile from Clashnoir. Arcot

Wilkes_ml
22-12-2009, 10:04 AM
It has been a couple of years, and now Scotlands People have added the Catholic Baptisms, I thought I'd have another attempt at trying to find my Isabella Turner.

Ascot, It looks like your Turners are probably related to my Isabella. As yet, I still can not find any hard documented evidence to link my Isabella in. However, I think I have a lot of circumstantial evidence now.

Going back to my original post, I initially ruled out Isabella daughter of James, as there is a will/inventory of James Turner (farmer of Morange, Inveravon) in 1857, followed by a Will/Inventory of Isabella Turner (daughter of James Turner, farmer of Morange, Inveravon) in 1861.

However, I suspect this may have been a different James Turner.

The James and Isabella in 1851 census was at "Glencimma" and this James was a shepherd, not a farmer.

I can only find one McDonald/Turner "union" in the area.

In 1841 Census at "Nethertown" Inveravon:

Thomas McDonald b. 1773
Margaret McDonald b. 1774
Isabella McDonald b. 1811
Elizabeth McDonald b. 1815
Jane McDonald b. 1821
Margaret Turner b. 1825
Christian Turner (Female) b. 1829
Thomas Turner b. 1836

In 1851 census at "Nether Achdregnie" Inveravon:

Thomas McDonald b. 1772 (farmer of 150 Acres employing 6 Labourers)
Margaret McDonald b. 1772
Isabela McDonald b. 1805
Elisabeth McDonald b. 1816
Thomas Turner b. 1836
+ 9 other people all listed as servants, but I believe to be a mix of staff and relatives

In 1851 census Christin Turner is a servant at "Lagnel" Inveravon

In 1861 Will/Inventory of Thomas McDonald is proved (stating death date of 26 Sep 1859)

In will is mentioned Wife Margaret Grant, daughters Isabella & Elizabeth McDonald, married daughters Jean wife of James Grant, Barbara wife of William Robertson, sons John & James McDonald and grandchildren: John Grant, Thomas Robertson & Thomas Turner.

However there is no mention of his grand daughters Margaret Turner and Christin/Chrstian/Christina. ( I was hoping to have Isabella mentioned!)

I assumed he didn't list Christina as she may have already died.

However, I found she had actually married Alexander Gordon 1851-1853 (not in parish registers so possibly Catholic) and died in 1899 at "Lagual" Glenlivat. Daughter of James Turner (Shepherd) and MarjoryTurner nee McDonald.

So maybe her grandfather just didn't mention any grandaughters for some reason.

I found Margaret McDonald died 1858 at "Auchdregnie" age 85 ( d. of John Grant & Isabella Grant nee Robertson) buried in graveyard at Tombae

Thomas Turner died 1859 at "Auchdregnie" aged 23 (s. James Turner and May Turner nee McDonald) buried in Churchyard at ChapelTown

Thomas MacDonald died 1859 at "Auchdregnie" age 87 (s. Alexander MacDonald & Margaret MacDonald nee Stewart) buried in Churchyard of Tombay (sic)

Elizabeth McDonald died 1866 at "Auchdregnie" age 55 (d. of Thomas McDonald & Margaret McDonald nee Grant)

all registered by John McDonald.

Looks like Catholics were a bit hit and miss with their baptisms (or some records are missing from Scotland's people)

A search of the catholic baptisms only give:

Alexander McDonald b. 1815 s. of Thomas McDonald and Margaret Grant at Tombae, The Incarnation
John McDonald b. 1817 s. of Thomas McDonald and Margaret Grant at Tombae, The Incarnation


John Turner b. 1821 s. James Turner & Marjory McDonald at Tombae, The Incarnation
Margaret Turner b. 1824 d. James Turner & Marjory McDonald at Tombae, The Incarnation
Christina Turner bap. 1826 d. James Turner & Marjory McDonald at Tombae, The Incarnation
Thomas Turner b. 1834 s. James Turner & May McDonald at Chapeltown, Our Lady of Perpetual Succour
Thomas Turner b. 1836 s. s. James Turner & Marjory McDonald at Chapeltown, Our Lady of Perpetual Succour

So there is a gap between 1826 and 1834 when my Isabella may have been born to James and Marjory/May.

Thanks to anyone who has managed to wade through all this!

Any suggestions as to where to look next would be appreciated!

Sue Mackay
22-12-2009, 10:37 AM
So there is a gap between 1826 and 1834 when my Isabella may have been born to James and Marjory/May.

Thanks to anyone who has managed to wade through all this!

Any suggestions as to where to look next would be appreciated!

Blimey Michelle, your Isabella is as bad as my Thomas Blacklock |shakehead.

My only suggestion, I'm afraid, is to look in the cabinet to see if you have any of Glenlivet's rather more well known product ;)

Wilkes_ml
22-12-2009, 10:49 AM
I'm wondering if that may have been the problem! Living in an area where they were surrounded by distillaries, maybe they had a bit too much to drink and forgot to baptize the children and were to fuddled to remember which ones had or hadn't been baptized!!!|banghead|

Wilkes_ml
22-12-2009, 1:13 PM
I may be grasping at straws here, but using FreeCen next household feature, you can look at the neighbours.

In 1841 :Thomas & Margaret McDonald, and Christian Turner (age 12), Margaret Turner (16) & Thomas Turner (12)

Next door on one side is John & Janet McDonald, on the other side is James & Ann McDonald and living with them is Christian Turner (age 9).

It is highly unlikely that there are 2 Christian Turners living next door to each other, so I suspect James & Ann (probably on the whiskey) actually had their niece Isabella living with them, and not Christian! Isabella Turner would have been about 8.

Arcot
04-04-2010, 1:30 PM
I have found a fantastic Web sight Called libindex .moray.gov.uk This is the Local Heritage Centre in Elgin. It has a lot of Turners !!Hope you find the link .Arcot

Wilkes_ml
29-08-2014, 6:28 AM
Wow...now another 4 years on and I am not much further with my TURNER family. Now I have realised that the Catholic baptism marriage and burial images are now available on Scotlands People (rather than just the baptism index that was there previously when I last looked.)

The Catholic marriage between John TURNER & Margery MCDONALD 29th August 1820 which gives the brides parent's as Thomas MCDONALD & Margaret GRANT, supporting the earlier research. However the groom's parents are not listed :confused:

From the Moray Burial Ground website, I found the occupants of grave 009 and 011 at Chapeltown (Glenlivet) graveyard

Grave stone 009 names:

Thomas TURNER died 1833 age 2
John TURNER died 1834
Margery TURNER nee MCDONALD died 1835
James TURNER died 1852
Thomas TURNER died 1859

and stone 011:

Isabella TURNER nee MCPHERSON died 1835
John TURNER died 1836
John TURNER died 1867
James TURNER died 1895
Jane TURNER died 1897
Isabella TURNER died 1901
Elizabeth TURNER died 1901

but searching both Catholic Parish Registers & Old (protestant) Parish Registers on Scotlands People for the pre 1855 deaths of the ocupants of grave 009 is coming up with nothing.....

so 7 years on from starting to research this family, I am still not much further forward :banghead:

Lesley Robertson
29-08-2014, 2:24 PM
It's frustrating that they don't give the ages of the people.... I'd expect more info than this, including relationships.
It might be worth investing in one of their booklets of transcriptions?

There's a death cert for Thomas Turner d. 1859, mother's surname MacDonald, aged 23 on SP. It says that he died in Auchbrech, Banff. If it IS him, his birth corresponds with Margery's death. I haven't gone further than the index.

The Gazetteer for Scotland describes Auchbrech as a small settlement in Glenlivet, Moray, east of the River Livet at the junction of the B9009 and B9008, north of that favourite of the BBC winter weather forecasts, Tomintoul.

(There's 2 other TTs died 1859 in Ayr and Wigtown, with no age or mother's surname given)

There's only 1 TT of the right age and area in the 1841*. He's living with Margaret (16) and Christian (12) Turner, Thomas (67) & Margaret (66) McDonald and 3 McDonald females aged from 20-30. Seems possible that this is grandparents, aunts and sisters. Thomas senior is a farmer.

*And now I see that you already had this info in message 3.... :(

grisel
29-08-2014, 3:47 PM
Have you checked out the 'other events' in the SP catholic records? Turners seem to be mentioned for both Glenlivet and Chapeltown. I used dates 1818- 1854. May or may not be relevant!

Wilkes_ml
29-08-2014, 4:49 PM
There's a death cert for Thomas Turner d. 1859, mother's surname MacDonald, aged 23 on SP. It says that he died in Auchbrech, Banff. If it IS him, his birth corresponds with Margery's death.(

Thanks for looking however I already had the baptism and death of Thomas, and I guessed Margery died during or shortly after his birth.

The problem I have, is only 4 baptisms of children of James & Margery are coming up (the records are duplicated for some reason, so the index looks like 8 hits). So only 4 children are confirmed as children of James and Margery. When my ancester (Isabella) died, the informant didn't know her parent's first names for some reason, but knew her mother's maiden name was MC DONALD. James & Margery are the only Turner/McDonald union in the right area, so I have assumed they are Isabella's parent's. From Isabella's death in 1905, she should have been born about 1833.

I'll have a look at the Catholic "other events"

Wilkes_ml
30-08-2014, 7:19 AM
Thanks for the heads up on the catholic registers, especially the "other" as they are like a census, and I was finally able to find the widowed James TURNER in 1839 (aged 56) with Margaret (age 15), Alexander(age 17), James (age 11 & absent), William (age 9) and Isabella (age 7). The list does not state relationships however, and out of Margaret, Alexander, James Jnr, William & Isabella, I can only find a baptism for Margaret in 1824.

the other children of James & Margery (Christina bap. 1826, John bap. 1821 and Thomas bap. 1835) are not with this James is starting to make me think I have 2 different James Turners who married different women! the fact that they both have a Margeret born 1814 could be a coincidence.....

Am I making any sense?

Wilkes_ml
30-08-2014, 7:26 AM
For completeness, also at Nether Clashnoir, but different household was:

John TURNER (age 61) absent {possibly a widow with his grown up children?}
Jane TURNER (age 29) absent
Isabella TURNER (age 27) absent
Betty TURNER (age 25) absent
James TURNER (age 23) absent
Mary TURNER (age 21) absent

and another houshold had just William TURNER (aged 63) so I suspect the heads of households James, John & William to be brothers.

grisel
30-08-2014, 3:37 PM
Thanks for the heads up on the catholic registers, especially the "other" as they are like a census, and I was finally able to find the widowed James TURNER in 1839 (aged 56) with Margaret (age 15), Alexander(age 17), James (age 11 & absent), William (age 9) and Isabella (age 7). The list does not state relationships however, and out of Margaret, Alexander, James Jnr, William & Isabella, I can only find a baptism for Margaret in 1824.

the other children of James & Margery (Christina bap. 1826, John bap. 1821 and Thomas bap. 1835) are not with this James is starting to make me think I have 2 different James Turners who married different women! the fact that they both have a Margeret born 1814 could be a coincidence.....

Am I making any sense?

Perhaps in the 1839 record Christina/Christian and Thomas are already with the McDonald family as in 1841. John could perhaps be the John Turner who died in 1834 and whose grave you found in post #8?

Wilkes_ml
30-08-2014, 4:51 PM
Perhaps in the 1839 record Christina/Christian and Thomas are already with the McDonald family as in 1841. John could perhaps be the John Turner who died in 1834 and whose grave you found in post #8?

It is James TURNER with children Margaret, Alexander, James jnr, William & Isabella who I am now looking for

I found a James (age 55) with William (age 11) at Auchvaich in 1841, and then in 1851 at Glencimma James (age 69) with Isabela (age 18) which is only 4 scedule numbers away from "Achivarch" which I believe to be the same place as Auchvaich.

I am assuming these names are of farms, as the names don't seem to come up on google maps.

I am working through the death/burial registers for James, but there are so many and Scotland's people doesn't give enough clues away to know if you have the right one, so I'm using loads of credits :banghead:

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here :confused:

Wilkes_ml
30-08-2014, 5:02 PM
The other thing that is puzzling is why the Household of John Turner & his children Jane, Isabella, betty, James & Mary are "absent" in 1839....I suspect the whole family have moved away completelyto another area, and I suspect if John (or James) had died prior to 1839, they either wouldn't be on the list, or listed as "deceased"

I was hoping to find a marriage of one of James' other children and a death to see what mother's name was given, but struggling to do that as well....the only child I have managed to track successfully is Alexander (b. 1821-1822) ...and that is because he moved to Clerkenwell, Middlesex then Islington! He married in Aberdeen in 1843, but his marriage gave no further information about his parents!

Wilkes_ml
30-08-2014, 5:12 PM
The John TURNER at Nether Clashnoir in 1839, is still living at Clashnoir in the 1861 census (age 83) with his daughter Bell TURNER (age 43)

So I am now pretty certain that the Inveravon families are different to the Glenlivet ones buried at Chapeltown.

grisel
30-08-2014, 5:15 PM
Sorry I didn't explain my thinking. Working on your first thought that there was one James Turner married to a McDonald -

In the 1839 list with James Turner you had children Margaret, Alexander, James jnr, William and Isabella but Christina , John and Thomas were missing.
I'm suggesting that in 1839 two of the missing children(Christina/Christian and Thomas) could possibly be with the McDonald family - or elsewhere- and that the third (John) had possibly died in 1834.

But only a possibility!

grisel
30-08-2014, 5:53 PM
I googled Auchvaich and came up with a site record from the Royal Commission for ancient monuments for West Auchavaich , grid refNJ249 202.

West Auchavaich is marked on OS maps and there is also an East Auchavaich. They are just south of Chapeltown. I looked on Bing maps for the os map.

The ancient monument record also mentioned that is now in Moray, formerly Banffshire.

I also looked on the National Library of Scotland which has online old maps of Scotland but this area does not seem to be covered.

edit I see that Clashnoir is North of Chapeltown so quite a wy from Auchavaich. My little brain is a bit addled and I'm off out - will reread your posts later or poss tomorrow - and see if any thoughts pop up!

Wilkes_ml
30-08-2014, 5:54 PM
Thanks...my heads a bit foggy today :lol: yes still a possibility, and highly possible. It's a bit of a nighhtmare as everyone in Inveravon seems to be called TURNER, McDONALD or GRANT :lol:

I've going to look at it all again tomorrow, and try to summarise what I have!

grisel
31-08-2014, 3:56 PM
I haven't looked at your Turners again but the OS map around Chapeltown is very interesting. Lots of the farms mentioned on the 41 and 51 census are still there. Guessing from the order in the census, Glencimma could be close to Achnascraw.

grisel
31-08-2014, 4:27 PM
You may have seen this already - but try googling Hidden Families - Aliases and Patronymics in Upper Banffshire for an interesting rootsweb article about the catholic population in this area and where the Turner name came from. Quite a lot to take in!

Also mentions catholic censuses for 1814 and partial censuses for 1822 and 1834. Held on microfilm in Elgin library. The article probably predates the catholic censuses going online with SP so maybe the information mentioned is now online in the 'other events'

Wilkes_ml
31-08-2014, 5:01 PM
Thanks again Grisel. If they had been put on the 'other events' then my families should have come up but I only got the 1939 list.

Unfortunately, Elgin is a very, very, very long way from me :lol: but I may be able to find a local researcher who could check out the documents for me.

Wilkes_ml
31-08-2014, 8:06 PM
correction to above: 1839 Catholic family lists

Looks like this is going be really difficult to trace the family if they have an alias and were Catholic prior to the start of the Tombae and Chapeltown Catholic Registers on "Scotland's People". It would certainly explain the lack of baptism around the time my Turners were baptised (1810-1832)

Wilkes_ml
01-09-2014, 1:37 PM
I have now found the family of Thomas McDONALD aged 60 his wife Margaret GRANT aged 60, his children John McDONALD aged 16, Isobel McDONALD aged 32, Janet McDONALD age 25, Elizabeth McDONALD aged 23, Jean McDONALD age 21, grand daughter Margaret TURNER age 9 (therefore born about 1824-1825) and "old maid" Jean McKAY in 1834 living at Nethertown Agndigny? (Scotland's People's Catholic "others")

So it is looking more like the unbaptised children of the widowed James in 1839 are the children of James & Margery nee McDOLALD (daughter of Thomas & Margaret McDONALD nee GRANT)

This also reminded me of the fact that most married women still used their maiden name after marriage (just to complicate things!)

Wilkes_ml
05-09-2014, 5:37 PM
I was starting to give up hope, but I think I have finally made a breakthrough as there is a baptism in 1818 at Tombae the Incarnation Catholic church, of Mary daughter of John TURNER alias GRANT (who I believe to be James' brother) and Isabel McPHERSON.

The great thing about this entry is that it names Christian McKAY as the grandmother on the father's side! the other sponser is John GRANT ..possibly John TURNER's father ( I'm still trying to get my head around the alias patrynomics system of northern Banffshire at this time)